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A Simpler Suspension system

Eion

First Grade
Messages
8,034
Good work Adam.

If the NRL don't want to go for radical change, I've always preferred the tweaking with the points method. Fines just seem a bit of a nonsense. It's only going to affect the lower paid players. The higher profile you are, as well as being able to afford it better, will find themselves having it paid by the club or sponsors anyway.
 
Messages
16,651
Can't agree with a fine system, the head must be protected. Players will become careless. The more they earn (bigger name they are), the more careless they can be.. It's not an even punishment for the same offence imo.

Agree with you on that point. It would definitely lead to a 2 tiered justice system with the players on big money getting away with things a lot more and they would not care if they did.

I don't agree about "big games" being worth more. Firstly what is a "big" game? A Grand Final? Origin? A Grand Final Qualifier? An elimination semi? What about the last game of the season where winning said game it sees your team make the semis and a loss ensures you miss out? Any rep game? As soon as you have a list defining them because these games require greater points accrual to miss, someone will want other games added.

The fact is, Wade Graham would not have missed Origin bar for carry over points. You could make some argument about whether carry over points should carry over to the next season or not.

One final point too is one made by Greg McCallum in today's Telegraph, if players contested Grade 1 charges which don't cause you to miss a match and did not take the early guilty plea for those offences, then a number of the players who have missed "big" games would not have been suspended for a grade 1 charge arising from the game before. The article is reproduced below -

Greg McCallum says early please at NRL judiciary to blame for big-match bans

97c3bb5bbf025553d9246a8fcff1dd9d

CHRISTIAN NICOLUSSI, The Daily Telegraph
an hour ago


FORMER match review committee chairman and referee Greg McCallum believes NRL clubs need to start regularly challenging minor offences at the judiciary rather than accepting early pleas and leaving players with the burden of carry-over points.

The match review committee and points system has again become a hot topic after Wade Graham was found guilty at the judiciary on Wednesday night and forced to give up on his Origin dream.

Cronulla coach Shane Flanagan said there had already been discussions among coaches about the points system.


Increasing the number of demerit points required to miss marquee games is one option.

?This highlights the anomalies in our game, to miss an Origin with 100 demerit points,?? Flanagan said Wednesday night.

Several high-profile players also called for a review of the points system on the eve of big games, including Graham?s teammate and proud New South Welshman Luke Lewis, who was forced to miss an Origin game through suspension in 2010.

The NRL CEOs were given an update yesterday at Rugby League Central by a working group entrusted with exploring alternatives to the current match review committee model.

Two of those alternatives included fines for minor charges, and increasing the amount of demerit points required to miss big games.

Geoff Bellew, who was the judiciary chairman on Wednesday night, and Canterbury coach Des Hasler are just two members understood to be part of that working group.

But McCallum said what cost Graham his Origin debut was his carry-over points _ and it was up to clubs to fight the minor offences.

While the player runs the risk of being suspended for a game if he loses at the judiciary, he also has no carry-over points if successful.

?This always comes up when you have a high-profile case such as Wade Graham,?? McCallum told The Daily Telegraph last night.

?We had with Cameron Smith missing the grand final, and Luke Lewis missing out on Origin.

?What players have to be careful of is rather than taking early pleas and being left with carry-over points, they should be challenging it. That?s what the system is there for. The club and player are only putting themselves under pressure by taking the early plea.??


McCallum was also quick to shoot down the idea of a fines? system, and said it was more often than not the clubs or somebody else who picked up the tab, which was hardly the deterrent for a player.

There was a mixed reaction among the CEOs when it came to tinkering with the points system. Plenty believe the current system works.

Sharks boss Lyall Gorman welcomed the review of the system, and while he could not fault the hearing Graham received, he said it was a shame for players to miss big matches through minor acts.

?Spectators, sponsors, all our stakeholders in the game want the best players on the field,?? Gorman said.

?You have to draw a line in the sand, and when there are extreme acts you need to send a strong message. But I don?t know too many people who believe grade one sanctions (warrant) missing an Origin game or grand final.??
 

Zadar

Juniors
Messages
963
I think you should just miss the next nrl match, not origin, and the same if you get suspended in origin, you miss the next origin match, that way the club doesn't have to pay for something that didn't happen in a club match.

As for missing a grand final, if it is a low grade charge, maybe you could play in the grand final, but accept a double match ban at the start of the next season, so if you got charged and hit with a one match ban, you get to play in the grand final, but take a 2 match ban into the next season.
 

Eion

First Grade
Messages
8,034
I think you should just miss the next nrl match, not origin, and the same if you get suspended in origin, you miss the next origin match, that way the club doesn't have to pay for something that didn't happen in a club match.

As for missing a grand final, if it is a low grade charge, maybe you could play in the grand final, but accept a double match ban at the start of the next season, so if you got charged and hit with a one match ban, you get to play in the grand final, but take a 2 match ban into the next season.

Except if you done for a serious charge in origin you can miss years with a lengthy suspension.
 

BroncosMan

Juniors
Messages
31
Can't agree with a fine system, the head must be protected. Players will become careless. The more they earn (bigger name they are), the more careless they can be.. It's not an even punishment for the same offence imo.

Streamline the grading system to 10 levels of high tackle - careless & deliberate 1 to 5.

To miss a SOO game, need to have accumulated 200 points, 250 for a grand final (rarer) & 150 for other finals. When they come back to a club game & they are still over the 100 points, they miss the next game.

Missing the big games should deduct more points off their tally as above.

I was thinking making the bigger games worth more points would work, but how would the carry over points work then?

It kind of hinges on games being worth 100 points.

If you made Origin worth 200 points and some charge a player got was worth 195 points, how many carry over if your next game is Origin? 195? So you start off with an extra week straight away on your next offence? Or would it mean you'd have to sit out the next regular season game because you had over 100 points?
 

Eion

First Grade
Messages
8,034
I was thinking making the bigger games worth more points would work, but how would the carry over points work then?

It kind of hinges on games being worth 100 points.

If you made Origin worth 200 points and some charge a player got was worth 195 points, how many carry over if your next game is Origin? 195? So you start off with an extra week straight away on your next offence? Or would it mean you'd have to sit out the next regular season game because you had over 100 points?

You'd sit out the next '100' game.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,972
I don't agree with grading games differently. Aside from more obvious criticisms that have been raised, it's an extra layer of complication in a system that needs to be simpler.

Believe me or don't, I've been saying for a while that we over-suspend for minor/accidental things. The Wade Graham incident is just a reminder.

Less suspensions means higher quality games for all of us.
 
Messages
16,651
Believe me or don't, I've been saying for a while that we over-suspend for minor/accidental things. The Wade Graham incident is just a reminder.

If he didn't have any carry over points there would not have been any suspension. Maybe he should have fought the charge that left him with carry over points in the first place.
 

Pierced Soul

First Grade
Messages
9,202
I don't agree with grading games differently.

they need to be. how anyone (and i have argued with morons on this) can compare a GF to a trial game is ridiculous. the whole point is not to allow players to miss out on big games for trivial offences.

i dont follow other sports, but for some reason i have a feeling when a jockey gets a ban it can be "suspended" so they dont have to sit out the next race?

in terms of mccallums argument regarding the judiciary - i thought a big part of the early guilty plea was to stop the procession of players who had to waste time going to the judiciary on a tuesday night, especially if they were planning on pleading guilty?
 

GongPanther

Referee
Messages
28,676
Suspending players is a penalty to curb any thuggery out of the game.And it prevents situations such as if a player is a particular target and is rubbed out for x amount of weeks because that player might be the key to the other offending team's fortunes close to the finals series.

You commit an indiscretion,you cop the penalty because it's not the NRL's fault that the system,if at all,isn't perfect,the onus first and foremost is on the offending player.

There is nothing complicated about playing within the rules of the game.

Simply play within them.
 

Last Week

Bench
Messages
3,829
I like the idea of 200 points for representative or finals games

I used to like this idea, but it doesn't really solve the issue of players being suspended for minor issues. It's over complicating an already complicated system.

Adams idea has merit, and would result in similar results to the different grading of matches. But it also keeps the treatment of each game even. Which is important because otherwise you'd have players grubbing it up in matches prior to the big game.
 

Cockadoodledoo

First Grade
Messages
5,045
Less suspensions means higher quality games for all of us.

Not sure I agree with this. The NRL have already implemented this policy with some terrible tackles such as 2 this season from Tariq Sims and for example the hit by Marty Tapau only copping a week. The result is players know that suspensions will be light or non existant and are willing to risk this to knock players out of games through illegal hits.

The NRL is more than happy to have players being knocked out and concussed because they only care about the $ signs from their locked in television contracts and don't care about the potential lawsuits in 20 years time when a bunch of players are suffering severe brain damage and the effects as a result.
 

Sphagnum

Coach
Messages
13,188
It's pretty simple

Stomping on some dude's nuts = ok (particularly if it's not a white guy)
Accidentally clipping someone high = death sentence ( unless you're a protected species)
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,972
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...d-it-has-failed-our-game-20160618-gpmf55.html

Gus has raised a lot of good points here, a lot along the same lines of what I've suggested. I don't necessarily agree with everything here - the argument that club and rep suspensions should be entirely separate is a controversial one but I can see where he's coming from as a clubman.


Wade Graham should be playing State of Origin football for NSW on Wednesday night. The system has failed him and it has failed our game. His suspension is totally unfair.
Of course the counter-argument to this is that rules are rules and if Graham didn't hit Johnathan Thurston a bit high the other night, on the back of a previous minor indiscretion some time ago, he wouldn't need to be down at the judiciary this week pleading his case for exoneration.
At the end of the day though, we ended up with the wrong penalty for Graham and the wrong result for rugby league. So rather than trying to justify the decision and burying our heads in the sand until the next time we get a similar situation, can we please introduce some safeguards to our judiciary process so this never happens again?
Wade Graham was suspended for one match for his high tackle on Johnathan Thurston.
Wade Graham was suspended for one match for his high tackle on Johnathan Thurston.
I can't remember how many times in the past 15 years we have spoken about the issue of the NRL judiciary, match review committee and penalties for player indiscretions on the field of play.
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The system has never been perfect; to be fair though, I don't think a perfect system is even possible. However, it takes an event like the Graham suspension this week to highlight yet again the failings of the model we currently employ. Our system is too harsh, overly subjective and completely inflexible. In search of consistency, our judiciary and penalties model has actually created more inconsistency and unfair penalties.
I am quite certain the ex-players who sit as judiciary panel members, when finding a player guilty of an offence at a hearing, would be in total disagreement with the penalty being handed down to a player as a result of that offence. For mine, part of the judiciary process should be to give the sitting judiciary panel members the flexibility to alter a penalty if they see fit. This can work both ways. They may feel the indiscretion by the player deserves a greater penalty. To protect the player, the panel members should have the right to administer a lesser penalty or fine if they feel it's warranted.
Disappointment: Graham speaks to the media after the decision.
Disappointment: Graham speaks to the media after the decision. Photo: Wolter Peeters
We put these ex-players on the judiciary panel for a reason. Let's use their experience and expertise to get fairer results for the players. Our judiciary should not be a battle of the law, but rather a search for justice, commonsense and getting the right result.
The Graham incident did not deserve a suspension. Again, this particular incident by itself would not have resulted in Wade missing a game. It was the fact he had a previous offence and carryover points that tipped him over the edge. This is where the system falls down.
I have often raised the concern that we charge players far too readily for minor offences that simply require a penalty, caution or even sin bin solution during the course of play. The vast majority of charges against players for accidental or even careless moments do not require more than a warning to make a point with the player. Repeat offenders could be subjected to financial penalty if the match review committee or judiciary panel deem it necessary. Suspension of a player should be a last resort in dealing with these matters.
I'm pretty sure that experienced former players can identify the reckless or deliberate actions that warrant players spending time on the sidelines to learn their lesson.
I have never been a fan of the early plea, points loading or carryover points system that simply delay the problem for another day in the future. This is the part of the penalty process that causes most of the problems. It needs to be reviewed and the rules need to be rewritten. We need more flexibility when deciding upon the appropriate penalty for each particular incident. Sure past record is a consideration, but it is not the major criterion. Each incident should be treated on its individual merits.
We are all for player safety and welfare, however, we don't want players missing games unnecessarily for minor offences.
I'm not so big on the idea of treating finals matches, or even grand finals, any differently to other club games. We don't want a situation where players are guilty of serious, reckless or even deliberate actions and being able to buy their way out of trouble to play in the grand final the following week. That could open up a whole range of unsavoury scenarios we just don't need.
Mind you, whenever incidents have occurred where a player is in danger of missing a grand final through a minor offence, more often than not it comes back to the fact our charging process is too harsh and the penalties far too great.
The other part of this process in need of urgent attention is distinguishing between club matches and representative football. At the very least, Graham should be serving his suspension the next time his NRL team, Cronulla, play their next club match. If he commits a serious offence in a club game, he should serve his suspension in a club game. This penalty should not keep him out of a representative clash for his city, state or country.
Similarly, when a player plays representative football for his city, state or country, any indiscretion he performs in this arena should never impact on his availability for the club team who pays his wages.
I have always believed that players who are guilty of indiscretions in the pressure-cooker atmosphere and elite levels of representative football should be subjected to financial penalties rather than impacting on their availability for club football.
It's hard enough for the clubs to have to deal with the unavailability of their representative stars when they play Origin football, injuries they may sustain in representative matches, or having to deal with rep players backing up only a few days after a representative fixture. Why should clubs bear the burden of a player suspension when he is playing for a completely different team?
Fine them. Fine them heavily if need be. If the indiscretion is so bad that it warrants suspension, then suspend them from future representative matches. But penalties for indiscretions in representative fixtures should not be impacting on club football.
Anyway, the bottom line is that Wade Graham should be playing this game on Wednesday night. The current process produced a bad decision. Let's accept that fact and make some changes to the system so it doesn't happen again.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...d-our-game-20160618-gpmf55.html#ixzz4C4ZfFOY0
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