AFL punts on Gold Coast

[King Tigerman]

if perth were in during a happier & helthier time for the game that could have been the case

What I wouldn't give to hear the NRL say they were investing $6mill a year in Perth!

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

People who attended games in Canberra coincidently had a Big Mac and fries whilst entering the games.

And a lobster in their pocket by half-time to hold them there till full-time.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

The great thing about AFL is their arrogance. It is a weakness. THey underestimate the effect the SL war had on RL, an opportunity that won't come again. Also the level of participation has risen due to southern migration.

Absolutely.

They like to push the idea that where AFL goes, AFL thrives. What they don't like to mention is the copious amount of Melbourne money that has been ploughed into Sydney and Brisbane over the past 25 years to prop them up.

And some people think the NRL treat their fans badly, for the past 6 or 7 years the AFL have given the out-of Victoria teams a salary cap higher than the Melbourne sides. Brisbane and Sydney had a cap 600k higher. So, if you followed a Melbourne AFL team in that time, you had no vitually hope of winning a comp.

How arrogant is that?

Assuming that the fans won't react?

Well, they didn't for the most part but that is more a reflection of the stupidity of the average AFL fan. Dumber than toast...

 

[The Preacher]

Kangaroos :lol: :lol: their support base is less than my son's U/9's side.
I attended a prelim final in Melbourne a few year ago, and you could count the number of supporters they have within 10 minutes, and that was at a packed MCG. They have one of, if not the lowest memberships in the AFL, a code that holds membership numbers in very high regard. AFL money very well wasted. :lol: :lol:

 

[dubby]

I think they are wasting their time, but at the same time they are fighting the NRL on the GC by way of attrition.

By taking the GCT head on, they are giving the people of the GC a choice; NRL or AFL. If they didnt go now, then they would have no chance in the future.
It is a bold move, but where there is a presence their is a chance. I wish the NRL did the same with Perth, but no they choose to ignore it and let the RU get set up and take the sponsorship $$ and let the AFL get stronger.

WIll it work? No idea. But it stops the NRL having complete ownership of SE QLD.

But it does exploit the weakness of varoius Melbourne teams like the Roos who in the future will struggle to exist in Melbourne. Why else do they try every year to "attract" new fans by going to the ACT? THat didnt work so the AFL have used the Roos to combat the GCT.

They are trying to assert their wealth and "popularity" by taking the NRL head on. I hope it doesnt work. Recent history shows that they have periodic success but if that passes and so does the support. (Lions, Swans next).

 

[Perth Red]

The last TV deal would suggest the AFL are not wasting money expanding their game into a National market!

I know we all like to view the world through our RL tinted glasses but some of the crap in this thread is embarrasing! Not sure if it is jealousy, ignorance or plain stupidity but if you truly don't believe that the money the AFL has spent in NSW and Q'land over the last 25 years has been money well spent then I am glad you are not my financial advisor!!

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

The last TV deal would suggest the AFL are not wasting money expanding their game into a National market!

I know we all like to view the world through our RL tinted glasses but some of the crap in this thread is embarrasing! Not sure if it is jealousy, ignorance or plain stupidity but if you truly don't believe that the money the AFL has spent in NSW and Q'land over the last 25 years has been money well spent then I am glad you are not my financial advisor!!

I know you're passionate about getting the NRL back to Perth but seriously, that is a load of bollocks.

If you call having 200,000 people per week watching your game in the biggest city in Australia a success, I've got a bridge you might like to have a look at...

 

[Quidgybo]

The great thing about AFL is their arrogance. It is a weakness. THey underestimate the effect the SL war had on RL, an opportunity that won't come again. Also the level of participation has risen due to southern migration

Why do I get the feeling sometimes that I’m standing in the middle of the strings section while Rome burns? We can’t go labeling the AFL arrogant and then turn around in the next breath and rationalise away the signs (eg. participation) that their plans and money are posing a real threat to RL. Surely it’s wiser (safer) for us to overestimate them than to underestimate them.

Absolutely.

They like to push the idea that where AFL goes, AFL thrives. What they don't like to mention is the copious amount of Melbourne money that has been ploughed into Sydney and Brisbane over the past 25 years to prop them up.

And some people think the NRL treat their fans badly, for the past 6 or 7 years the AFL have given the out-of Victoria teams a salary cap higher than the Melbourne sides. Brisbane and Sydney had a cap 600k higher. So, if you followed a Melbourne AFL team in that time, you had no vitually hope of winning a comp.

How arrogant is that?

Assuming that the fans won't react?

Well, they didn't for the most part but that is more a reflection of the stupidity of the average AFL fan. Dumber than toast...

Or perhaps the fans are enlightened enough to see the long term benefit for their game of taking a decade or so of pain in their heartland to kickstart the game in new areas. It’s no accident that the national exposure generated by that effort in new markets has translated into big TV dollars. Incidentally these are the same TV dollars that allows that code to subsidize non viable Melbourne clubs and will ultimately allow them to clear the debt of all clubs. And it's the same television money that ensures the majority of clubs turn a profit while 14 of 15 NRL clubs lose money.

I live in Brisbane and lived through the "Lions mania" that swept over the area at the time of their dominance and let me tell you, while they were flavour of the month (for a few years), the very second they were no longer the premiers their interest level here plummeted to JUST above zero. The bandwagoners dropped them so fast most of the team wouldn't be recognized in the street anymore.

I dont think the GC has anything to worry about. AFL in QLD didnt work after 3 straight premierships and it never will.

But Brisbane still drew 330,000 to watch this years AFL Grand Final. Hardly a failure. Meanwhile, the NRL couldn’t even beg its way into a decent telecast for it’s own Grand Final in Adelaide and Perth. And it shows in the one fifth of viewers our game got in those cities combined (68,000) compared to Brisbane.

If the Kangaroos are not successful?

Which living thing with more than once cell doesn't already know the answer to that one?

We'll be having barbecues on Mars well before they'll be successful in Qld.

Without doubt similar comments were made about the Bad News Bears at one point. The key part of that quote is not “If the Kangaroos are not successful…”. It’s the bit where he says “we'll push on… this will not be determined by a one-year performance from a football team”. It’s essentially a declaration of war to the bitter end on our territory. Are we going to fight a rear guard action the whole way or are we going to take the battle to their turf?

While they chase the golden goose in Northern Australia, they are leaving their own heartland unattended by propping up the Swans and Bears, with Soccer, Union and Rugby attacking, you can see these morons squirming already.

For all their efforts chasing the golden goose in Northern Australia, I see them with $780m over the next five years. Hardly squirming.

Leigh.

 

[Quidgybo]

If you call having 200,000 people per week watching your game in the biggest city in Australia a success, I've got a bridge you might like to have a look at...

200,000 is better than zero. Which is more or less what they'd have if they weren't in Sydney. That translates into real dollars one way or the other. At a wild guess I'd suggest that the Sydney market is worth at least $20m per year to the AFL's TV contract (ie. $100m out of $780m) before we even consider the added value for sponsors. Success or not, that's certainly nothing to be sneezed at.

Leigh.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

Why do I get the feeling sometimes that I’m standing in the middle of the strings section while Rome burns?

You're an intelligent person and in the minority in this thread. Yet you assume the majority are in the wrong?

We can’t go labeling the AFL arrogant and then turn around in the next breath and rationalise away the signs (eg. participation) that their plans and money are posing a real threat to RL. Surely it’s wiser (safer) for us to overestimate them than to underestimate them.

They are no threat to Rugby League in NSW and Queensland.

They've thrown their best and made little impact.

In 25 years, with 4 premierships and numerous Grand Final appearances between the two teams, the AFL still can't get anyone to watch an AFL game that doesn't include the home team in either Brisbane or Sydney. And even with the home team, the ratings are awful.

In the same period Rugby League has survived Super League, the last two seasons are the best ever average-attendance-wise and it's ratings are soaring.

Or perhaps the fans are enlightened enough to see the long term benefit for their game of taking a decade or so of pain in their heartland to kickstart the game in new areas.

The fans are imbeciles.

What is the gain for the Melbourne AFL fan?

Watch every premiership go somewhere else?

Have 10 of 15 teams in the comp but 1/2 or less of the semi-finalists?

Or have a season like 2003 where every non-VFL origin side made the semis at the expense of their teams?

It’s no accident that the national exposure generated by that effort in new markets has translated into big TV dollars. Incidentally these are the same TV dollars that allows that code to subsidize non viable Melbourne clubs and will ultimately allow them to clear the debt of all clubs. And it's the same television money that ensures the majority of clubs turn a profit while 14 of 15 NRL clubs lose money.

The big TV dollars emerged only because of the Packers forcing 7 and 10 to match their offer.

They'll suffer dreadfully over the term of the contract and the next one will be picked up by 9 for a song.

The losers in the long term will be 7, 10 and the AFL.

But Brisbane

still drew 330,000 to watch this years AFL Grand Final.

Hardly a failure.

It's a rousing success?

And the other 60 games the AFL showed during the season in Brisbane at ratings that rarely got into 6 figures?

What's the spin on that?

Meanwhile, the NRL couldn’t even beg its way into a decent telecast for it’s own Grand Final in Adelaide and Perth. And it shows in the one fifth of viewers our game got in those cities combined (68,000) compared to Brisbane.

Don't be ridiculous. The games were shown at rubbish hours and neither the NRL or 9 have any control over it.

Yet the NRL got within 67,000 of the AFL Australia-wide and will beat it if there is an all Victoria GF.

Without doubt similar comments were made about the Bad News Bears at one point. The key part of that quote is not “If the Kangaroos are not successful…”. It’s the bit where he says “

we'll push on… this will not be determined by a one-year performance from a football team”. It’s essentially a declaration of war to the bitter end on our territory. Are we going to fight a rear guard action the whole way or are we going to take the battle to their turf?

The AFL said the same about Canberra, and Sydney. The Kangaroos were going to be Sydney's second team.

The Kangaroos are poison and the only time they'll draw a crowd on the Gold Coast is when they play Brisbane there and the travelling supporters go.

Exactly the same as happened when they played in Sydney and in Canberra.

The AFL are running scared. They know they have nowhere to expand to and they know that this is the last big $ TV deal they'll get.

If they weren't running scared they'd use the big $ to simply move two spluttering Melboune teams to Sydney's west and the Gold Coast.

For all their efforts chasing the golden goose in Northern Australia, I

see them with $780m over the next five years. Hardly squirming.

The squirming begins when discussion about the next contract start to heat up.

By the way, which AFL team do you follow?

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

200,000 is better than zero.

200,000 is for all AFL games on a weekend, not one.

Which is more or less what they'd have if they weren't in Sydney.

So, where are the iroads again?

That translates into real dollars one way or the other.

How?

The ratings have always, are now and will always be rubbish.

At a wild guess I'd suggest that the Sydney market is worth at least $20m per year to the AFL's TV contract (ie. $100m out of $780m) before we even consider the added value for sponsors. Success or not, that's certainly nothing to be sneezed at.

At a wild guess, I'd say that was a wild guess.

Have you anything more concrete or do I start the belittling sarcasm now?

 

[dubby]

Stick it to him ELA!

I admit that Quidgybo has some points, but I think he is a little too melancholy.

Poor guy cant even spell Quidgybo properly! Go back to Simpsons series one mate, and watch how Kwidgybo is really spelled.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

He sounds like an AFL man the more I read his posts.

AFL people have an inherent ability to assume that their game is motoring on everywhere, even when the evidence to the contrary is in front of them.

They're not going to expand where they're threatening to simply because they're black holes, and they know it.

AFL can't go anywhere else without losing squillions.

 

[legend]

Moreso than any other point, Seven and Ten will not get the bang for their buck after outlaying such an unsustainable amount to secure the FTA rights and with the AFL punted from Fox (pardon the pun), the penetration in the Northern states will be shallow at best.

History has shown us relocating teams does not work and the support is transient at best.

As a comparison, I think the AFL should be more worried about the infiltration of the Storm into Melbourne and the day Melbourne produce a local rep level talent, then League in Melbourne will kick even more goals.

 

[Quidgybo]

You're an intelligent person and in the minority in this thread. Yet you assume the majority are in the wrong?

Not at all. They may be right. You might be right. I have no problem with admitting I could be wrong. But it's truely arrogant to label someone else arrogant and then turn around and write off the threat they pose to you. Regardless of how we perceive their capacity to deliever, anyone willing to spend that much time and money working to undermine our heartland deserves to be taken seriously. Always respect your opponent (isn't that [SIZE=-1]Sun Tzu or something?).[/SIZE]

What is the gain for the Melbourne AFL fan?

Watch every premiership go somewhere else?

Have 10 of 15 teams in the comp but 1/2 or less of the semi-finalists?

Or have a season like 2003 where every non-VFL origin side made the semis at the expense of their teams?

The gain is that their code and their clubs will be making money both directly and indirectly out of NSW and QLD for decades to come. Long after any short term imbalance or subsidies have been removed. That's money over and above what they'll earn from their heartlands (and safely so in Adelaide and Perth because we're not even in there fighting)

Don't be ridiculous. The games were shown at rubbish hours and neither the NRL or 9 have any control over it.

Yet the NRL got within 67,000 of the AFL Australia-wide and will beat it if there is an all Victoria GF.

Umm no, the NRL was 600,000 behind Australia wide. 3.15m for the AFL versus 2.56m for the NRL. If we had drawn proportional figures in Adelaide and Perth to what the AFL drew in Brisbane (ie. about 200,000 in Adelaide and about 270,000 in Perth), we would have been within 100,000 or so. But we have no hope of a decent timeslot while our code doesn't have a presence in those cities.

The AFL are running scared. They know they have nowhere to expand to and they know that this is the last big $ TV deal they'll get.

If they weren't running scared they'd use the big $ to simply move two spluttering Melboune teams to Sydney's west and the Gold Coast.

Which I suspect is exactly what they'll do come the end of the Kangaroos current package or matches. The reason the AFL "have nowhere to expand" is because by and large they've already done all the hard yards of expansion. Now's just a process of filling in the last few gaps (driving the nail home).

The squirming begins when discussion about the next contract start to heat up.

Perhaps they'll earn the same (with the general inflation that follows television rights), perhaps they'll earn less. But either way, while they have a presence in every major capital in Australia and Rugby League doesn't, they'll earn more than the NRL.

By the way, which AFL team do you follow?

I don't follow any AFL team. As far as the game on the field is concerned I don't care for it - never have. I grew up in Rugby League heartland and have been fanatical about our game since I was eight. And I can probably count the number of AFL games I've sat thru start to finish in my entire life on one hand. But no matter where my loyalties lie I think it only makes sense to keep an eye on what your opposition is up to and to treat their moves and successes with respect. To that end, while I might not follow the game on the field I certainly make sure I read every bit of news about the game off it.

200,000 is for all AFL games on a weekend, not one.

So, where are the iroads again?

The inroads are the 200,000 that they wouldn't have if they weren't competing in that market. As I said, without a presence they'd pretty much have zero.

At a wild guess, I'd say that was a wild guess.

It's an opinion. And I didn't represent it as anything else.

Have you anything more concrete or do I start the belittling sarcasm now?

Why would you want to belittle me at all? If the counter points to my argument are so strong then you shouldn't need to prop them up with anything else. Or to put it another way, if a point can't stand on it's own without ridiculing those who disagree then the point probably isn't worth making.

Leigh.

 

[Quidgybo]

He sounds like an AFL man the more I read his posts.

LOL. I've been called a lot of things on Rugby League forums over the years (since 1995) but "an AFL man" is a new one. You have actually read my posts outside of this thread?

But quite beside that, if I were "an AFL man" would it make my points any less worthy of discussion? Are AFL fans, or soccer fans, or knitting fans, or cooking fans any less capable of putting together a balanced intelligent argument? Or any less capable of being as stupid as the thickest prop forward? Play the ball, not the man.

Leigh.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

Not at all. They may be right. You might be right. I have no problem with admitting I could be wrong. But it's truely arrogant to label someone else arrogant and then turn around and write off the threat they pose to you. Regardless of how we perceive their capacity to deliever, anyone willing to spend that much time and money working to undermine our heartland deserves to be taken seriously. Always respect your opponent (isn't that [SIZE=-1]Sun Tzu or something?).[/SIZE]

What you're missing, the sinlge salient point is that the AFL threat is not a new one, it's been in Sydney for 25 years and Brisbane for 20 year now.

The inroads aren't impressive. They don't rate on TV and their crowds are 100% reliant on table position and star impact. That there hasn't been a star (in Sydney) since Lockett and probably won't be again is a problem.

The gain is that their code and their clubs will be making money both directly and indirectly out of NSW and QLD for decades to come. Long after any short term imbalance or subsidies have been removed. That's money over and above what they'll earn from their heartlands (and safely so in Adelaide and Perth because we're not even in there fighting)

I can't see them making any more than they already do from Sydney and Brisbane. And it won't take much of a drop in crowds for them to start losing money again.

The Lions made a loss in 2006 after dropping just 5k from their crowd average.

Umm no, the NRL was 600,000 behind Australia wide. 3.15m for the AFL versus 2.56m for the NRL.

ummmm no.

Australia's population doesn't end in 5 cities.

Do your homework.

If we had drawn proportional figures in Adelaide and Perth to what the AFL drew in Brisbane (ie. about 200,000 in Adelaide and about 270,000 in Perth), we would have been within 100,000 or so. But we have no hope of a decent timeslot while our code doesn't have a presence in those cities.

No, if we had drawn proportional figures in Adelaide and Perth we'd have been 400k in front.

I suspect you're underestimating Rugby League based on sub-standard evidence.

Which I suspect is exactly what they'll do come the end of the Kangaroos current package or matches. The reason the AFL "have nowhere to expand" is because by and large they've already done all the hard yards of expansion. Now's just a process of filling in the last few gaps (driving the nail home).

No, if they actually believed that the Gold Coast and Western Sydney were ripe for expansion teams, they'd already have them there.

There is absolutely nothing to stop them from moving now. Nothing but their fear.

Perhaps they'll earn the same (with the general inflation that follows television rights), perhaps they'll earn less. But either way, while they have a presence in every major capital in Australia and Rugby League doesn't, they'll earn more than the NRL.

That remains to be seen.

Flooding the market with an unpopular product generally does more harm than good.

I don't follow any AFL team. As far as the game on the field is concerned I don't care for it - never have. I grew up in Rugby League heartland and have been fanatical about our game since I was eight. And I can probably count the number of AFL games I've sat thru start to finish in my entire life on one hand. But no matter where my loyalties lie I think it only makes sense to keep an eye on what your opposition is up to and to treat their moves and successes with respect. To that end, while I might not follow the game on the field I certainly make sure I read every bit of news about the game off it.

There is a big difference between respecting and being scared of the opposition.

There is nothing to be scared of and the time for respect is over as far as our heartlands go.

The inroads are the 200,000 that they wouldn't have if they weren't competing in that market. As I said, without a presence they'd pretty much have zero.

200k is close enough to 0 in a city the size of Sydney.

It's an opinion. And I didn't represent it as anything else.

True.

Why would you want to belittle me at all?

Force of habit.

And you sounded like an AFL supporter.

If the counter points to my argument are so strong then you shouldn't need to prop them up with anything else. Or to put it another way, if a point can't stand on it's own without ridiculing those who disagree then the point probably isn't worth making.

I disagree, ridicule is funny whether the point is worth making or not. Without ridicule the board might as well not exist.

 

[Quidgybo]

I admit that Quidgybo has some points, but I think he is a little too melancholy.

Not at all. I frequently extoll the positive attributes of our code on this forum in the face of the professional knockers. But just as I believe all is not doom and gloom, I am not blind enough to assume it is all bright skies and sunshine either. IMHO our greatest asset is the game itself. We're so lucky that, unlike other codes, we're not trying to win fans while peddling a game that, when it's all boiled down, is just a bore. All I want is to see our game use that natural advantage to be everything it could be.

Poor guy cant even spell Quidgybo properly! Go back to Simpsons series one mate, and watch how Kwidgybo is really spelled.

Actually it's Kwyjibo. But that's "a fat, dumb, balding North American ape with no chin" (and a bad temper). Despite the fact I currently live in North Amercia, I'd prefer to be different. Which pretty much sums me up. Can't you tell?

Leigh

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

LOL. I've been called a lot of things on Rugby League forums over the years (since 1995) but "an AFL man" is a new one. You have actually read my posts outside of this thread?

No I haven't. None that I can recall anyway.

But quite beside that, if I were "an AFL man" would it make my points any less worthy of discussion?

Of course.

I would need an interpreter for a start.

Are AFL fans, or soccer fans, or knitting fans, or cooking fans any less capable of putting together a balanced intelligent argument?

Soccer, knitting and cooking yes, AFL no.

They're all geniused.

Or any less capable of being as stupid as the thickest prop forward? Play the ball, not the man.

The thickest prop who ever lived still didn't play AFL....

Nah, play both. If the man can't handle it, he'll move on. And the ball is inanimate which is what AFL supporters basically are anyway.

 

[The Engineers Room]

Anyone that has watched an AFL game in its entirety is a moron. The game is so juvenile and predictable. I have never watched more than 1 minute at a time. When South Melbourne won the premiership, I didn't care because they are neither Sydney nor playing a real sport.

I do enjoy Lawn Bowls though and that is definately a better sport to watch.