Australia won't win 2022 WC

[Matua]

Which of your questions do you imagine I've not adequately answered?

Any of them. I'm still waiting for your list of NZ player "poaches". You haven't really provided your definition of heritage and why NZ doesn't have heritage under your definition. You keep avoiding whether you consider Hurrell is a heritage player or a nationality player.

There is no discrimination against Kiwis wanting to play origin, other than the arbitrary DISCRIMINATORY origin eligibility rules, which apply to Kiwis and non Kiwis alike. So I actually agree with you, Kiwis should not be banned from qualifying for origin because they did not arrive in Aus on time.

I must admit I'm impressed at the hoops you will jump through to claim an arbitrary age is discrimination yet being one type of Polynesian isn't.

Age rule: This rule is to ensure that people are genuinely raised in the State they're playing for. It's an arbitrary date because a date needs to be chosen. However it does mean that a 17 year NZer/PIer can not just turn up in Sydney and then the next year represent NSW. Because they really have little attachment to the state at this stage.

PIs but not NZers rule: Two players meet all the eligibility requirements for Origin (they turn up before the age date), one of the players has some Samoan descent (he could be from Samoa or NZ or anywhere), the other is a NZer of Maori descent. The player of Samoan descent can play Origin with no other requirements, he does not have to turn his back on his Samoan heritage. Yet the NZer can't, he can only play Origin if he turns his back on his NZ heritage.

Now, if you think the first one is discriminatory, or more discriminatory than the second one you really are just on the troll.

 

[Perth Red]

Aus has the best spine in the tournament on paper and thats usually enough to get you home. But as SOO saw whats on paper doesn't always translate to a win, especially in knock out scenarios. NZ's spine is pretty close and they arguably have a better pack.

1.Tedesco v Manu
6. Munster v Brown
7. Cleary v Hughes
9. Grant v Smith

 

[stryker]

It is relevant lol the spine you had for GB is way better than the one England has now. Lomax/Hastings/Widdop/Hodgson. That spine lost to Tonga and PNG and it wasn't even close. That team we're all English players. And most of them are playing for England at the world cup. The Kiwis and Kangaroos have a very strong spine. England not so sure. They seem to have gone worse than the last world cup

I’m not a Pom so why would I care?
Im just saying Samoa have a weak spine and talk of them winning the cup is silly at this stage. They’ve proven nothing.

 

[Smug Panther]

I’m not a Pom so why would I care?
Im just saying Samoa have a weak spine and talk of them winning the cup is silly at this stage. They’ve proven nothing.

You are a anti PENRITH! butthurt loser tho

 

[stryker]

You are a anti PENRITH! butthurt loser tho

Look just because you crawled aboard this year doesn’t make you an authority.
Now back to your crackden, I think I heard one of your children wake up.

 

[The Lounge Lizard]

Bouganville will win this hands down.

 

[Captain Apollo]

 

[Ernest the Sheep]

Any of them. I'm still waiting for your list of NZ player "poaches". You haven't really provided your definition of heritage and why NZ doesn't have heritage under your definition. You keep avoiding whether you consider Hurrell is a heritage player or a nationality player.


I must admit I'm impressed at the hoops you will jump through to claim an arbitrary age is discrimination yet being one type of Polynesian isn't.

Age rule: This rule is to ensure that people are genuinely raised in the State they're playing for. It's an arbitrary date because a date needs to be chosen. However it does mean that a 17 year NZer/PIer can not just turn up in Sydney and then the next year represent NSW. Because they really have little attachment to the state at this stage.

PIs but not NZers rule: Two players meet all the eligibility requirements for Origin (they turn up before the age date), one of the players has some Samoan descent (he could be from Samoa or NZ or anywhere), the other is a NZer of Maori descent. The player of Samoan descent can play Origin with no other requirements, he does not have to turn his back on his Samoan heritage. Yet the NZer can't, he can only play Origin if he turns his back on his NZ heritage.

Now, if you think the first one is discriminatory, or more discriminatory than the second one you really are just on the troll.

there are plenty to choose from

List of New Zealand Kiwis representatives - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

An arbitrary age is obviously discriminatory since it targets migrants. The idea that you need to be "genuinely raised" in a sate sounds like white supremacist twaddle to me. I'm not sure what type of discrimination certain type of Polynesians are subjected to. Perhaps you could elaborate further?

You seem to be constantly contradicting yourself. You are a stickler for the rules when it comes to age in eligibility for origin, but then whinge because the same rules state that NZers can't play both origin and for the NZ national side. Your example doesn't make sense. The NZer of Maori descent is eligible to play for the Maori side. The Samoan is not, in most cases. However the Samoan can also play for Samoa, and when the time comes they can switch to NZ. At present according to the international eligibility rules 2nd tier representation does not prevent you from switching to 1st tier, while switching between 1st tier nations is not allowed. This is why NZers can't play origin, because they are no longer eligible for Oz (a 1st tier nation).

 

[Matua]

there are plenty to choose from

List of New Zealand Kiwis representatives - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yet, again, you have not chosen any as examples.

An arbitrary age is obviously discriminatory since it targets migrants. The idea that you need to be "genuinely raised" in a sate sounds like white supremacist twaddle to me. I'm not sure what type of discrimination certain type of Polynesians are subjected to. Perhaps you could elaborate further?

Every single sport has some kind of age or residency qualifier. Your white supremacist comment is laughable. Do you think that Shaun Johnson should have been eligible for Origin the day he moved to Cronulla in his mid 20s?

Look mate if you need me to elaborate any further on how different Polynesians are discriminated against by the Origin rules than in the example then I can't help because you're either being deliberately obtuse or you're slow.

You seem to be constantly contradicting yourself. You are a stickler for the rules when it comes to age in eligibility for origin, but then whinge because the same rules state that NZers can't play both origin and for the NZ national side. Your example doesn't make sense. The NZer of Maori descent is eligible to play for the Maori side. The Samoan is not, in most cases. However the Samoan can also play for Samoa, and when the time comes they can switch to NZ. At present according to the international eligibility rules 2nd tier representation does not prevent you from switching to 1st tier, while switching between 1st tier nations is not allowed. This is why NZers can't play origin, because they are no longer eligible for Oz (a 1st tier nation).

Origin rules aren't international rules so they don't need to adhere to any tier representation qualifications so there's no need to bring them into the discussion this late in the game.

Why are you talking about a Maori side? There will never be another Maori representative side in the RLWC and this discussion is about Origin eligibility - you're merely throwing things at a wall yet again.

Hurrell - nationality or heritage? Nope, still not going to answer I see.

Anyway mate, I'm done, I'm not wasting anymore time in a discussion with someone who argues in bad faith like you've been doing.

 

[ATOWN2]

Samoa V England is coming soon. Can't wait. Will England pull off an upset?

 

[Bobby DIGital]

View attachment 67340

Looks like they're bonding well...f**kwits.

 

[Ernest the Sheep]

Yet, again, you have not chosen any as examples.


Every single sport has some kind of age or residency qualifier. Your white supremacist comment is laughable. Do you think that Shaun Johnson should have been eligible for Origin the day he moved to Cronulla in his mid 20s?

Look mate if you need me to elaborate any further on how different Polynesians are discriminated against by the Origin rules than in the example then I can't help because you're either being deliberately obtuse or you're slow.


Origin rules aren't international rules so they don't need to adhere to any tier representation qualifications so there's no need to bring them into the discussion this late in the game.

Why are you talking about a Maori side? There will never be another Maori representative side in the RLWC and this discussion is about Origin eligibility - you're merely throwing things at a wall yet again.

Hurrell - nationality or heritage? Nope, still not going to answer I see.

Anyway mate, I'm done, I'm not wasting anymore time in a discussion with someone who argues in bad faith like you've been doing.

How about this guy?

Sebastian Kris - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Shaun Johnson isn't eligible for origin as he isn't eligible for Aus. But assuming he was then provided he sat out a specified period of residency I don't see why he should not be allowed to play origin.

But mate, I reckon you are a big pretender. This moral indignation you are projecting is really just that you are a Kiwi league fanboi who thinks any good player with a tenuous connection to NZ should play for the Kiwis. Show a little pride ffs. If someone would rather play for a state in Aus than the Kiwis, then maybe they are not a Kiwi. EOS. Hurrell would qualify for Tonga as he was born there. I don't know what your point is?

I also do not see what point you think you are making about how different Polynesians are supposedly discriminated against. I think you might be, again, confusing nationality and ethnicity.

 

[Matua]

How about this guy?

Sebastian Kris - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ok, I will actually be done after this post, but there's so much B/S in here so I'll respond.

The Wiki link you provided notes that he is of NZ heritage (his Mum is a NZer). So no different than all the PIs playing for the islands based on heritage that you're happy with. So therefore he's not a poach by your own logic.

Shaun Johnson isn't eligible for origin as he isn't eligible for Aus. But assuming he was then provided he sat out a specified period of residency I don't see why he should not be allowed to play origin.

There is technically a period of residency for selection in Origin if a player migrates to Australia. You've been arguing against it for three pages now claiming it's racist.

But mate, I reckon you are a big pretender. This moral indignation you are projecting is really just that you are a Kiwi league fanboi who thinks any good player with a tenuous connection to NZ should play for the Kiwis. Show a little pride ffs. If someone would rather play for a state in Aus than the Kiwis, then maybe they are not a Kiwi. EOS.

I don't care who a person plays for, I just want all players to have the same opportunities to play for all teams available to them. This currently only happens to a select group of players.

Hurrell would qualify for Tonga as he was born there. I don't know what your point is?

You've been making a distinction between the PI teams being heritage rather than nationality (which you ascribe to NZ). When the fact is they're both heritage and nationality (both teams are).

I also do not see what point you think you are making about how different Polynesians are supposedly discriminated against. I think you might be, again, confusing nationality and ethnicity.

No confusion, it can fit both ways. Some Polynesians (Samoans, Tongans) can play Origin and still be eligible for their nation team of choice. Others (Maori) can't. Some nationalities (Samoans, Tongans) can play Origin and still be eligible for their nation team of choice. Others (NZers) can't.

 

[Smug Panther]

SJ is a f**king bum who wasn't ever close to origin quality. Try keep your ridiculous hypotheticals at least somewhat based in reality

 

[Ernest the Sheep]

Ok, I will actually be done after this post, but there's so much B/S in here so I'll respond.

The Wiki link you provided notes that he is of NZ heritage (his Mum is a NZer). So no different than all the PIs playing for the islands based on heritage that you're happy with. So therefore he's not a poach by your own logic.


There is technically a period of residency for selection in Origin if a player migrates to Australia. You've been arguing against it for three pages now claiming it's racist.


I don't care who a person plays for, I just want all players to have the same opportunities to play for all teams available to them. This currently only happens to a select group of players.


You've been making a distinction between the PI teams being heritage rather than nationality (which you ascribe to NZ). When the fact is they're both heritage and nationality (both teams are).


No confusion, it can fit both ways. Some Polynesians (Samoans, Tongans) can play Origin and still be eligible for their nation team of choice. Others (Maori) can't. Some nationalities (Samoans, Tongans) can play Origin and still be eligible for their nation team of choice. Others (NZers) can't.

He's also apparently, according to the wiki link, a South African. So why isn't he playing for the South African national side? It's little wonder the Saffers seem to have disappeared from the international scene with NZ poaching all their best players.

You obviously missed where I explicitly stated there should be a period of residency required to play origin for those players not born in Aus. What I do have an issue with is the age requirement, which is arbitrary and discriminatory and affects migrants ("dreamers").

But despite your protestations, you do care which team a player plays for. You want anyone with a tenuous link to NZ to play for the Kiwis. It's obvious.

You are also assuming that a Maori's national team would be NZ. That's a bit presumptuous don't you think?

To play origin you need to be eligible to play for Aus, and rightfully so. And luckily, due to a deliberate quirk in the international eligibility rules it turns out that players eligible for Pacific Island nations can play for those nations without losing their Aus (or NZ) eligibility. This is good as it makes the world cup more competitive and promotes league better worldwide. Now you might argue that someone can't be both Aus and Samoan for example, but I'm happy to hide behind nationality/ethnicity ambiguity here if it is good for the game internationally. You can be a Samoan Ozzie, a Maori Ozzie etc but you cannot be a Kiwi Ozzie, that is just a little too much on the hooter!

 

[Bobby DIGital]

SJ is a f**king bum who wasn't ever close to origin quality. Try keep your ridiculous hypotheticals at least somewhat based in reality

Especially with guys like Mitchell Pearce on the scene.

 

[forby]

Going back to the thread title, Australia won't win the WC as long as Mal keeps up his pro Queensland selection policy. He has tried to justify DCE firstly as the incumbent (3 years ago), the decide he would rest the GF players which no other country has done. So DCE and his 9 other Qld mates play against Fiji, then he can justify playing them in the rest of the cup by saying why change a winning team. This leaves Cleary and Yeo on the sidelines for the tournament, while Munster, DCE and Hunt will stay as his preferred spine. They might get a run against Italy or Scotland if they are lucky.
NZ will love this!

 

[Smug Panther]

Especially with guys like Mitchell Pearce on the scene.

No he's even worse than that

 

[Bobby DIGital]

No he's even worse than that

True, and then there's Origin superstars like Trent Hodkinson, Josh Reynolds and Jamie Soward during that era who he'd just never be able to get past to play in the "pinnacle" of the sport....

 

[Smug Panther]

True, and then there's Origin superstars like Trent Hodkinson, Josh Reynolds and Jamie Soward during that era who he'd just never be able to get past to play in the "pinnacle" of the sport....

3 players with more ticker....yes even Sowie