What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Better than Phar Lap?

NPK

Bench
Messages
4,670
Makybe Diva has won 3 times as many Melbourne Cups as Phar Lap ever did. Will anyone dare say she is better?
 

Twizzle

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
155,276
we'll never know

Pharlap didn't get the chance to win more, coz the bloody Yanks poisoned him
 

lockyno1

Post Whore
Messages
53,744
I never saw Phar Lap and most of us never have so it is very hard to compare them. The Diva is by far the best of our generation and Phar Lap was the best of the older generation!
 

Balmain_Boy

Guest
Messages
4,801
Makybe Diva has never won shorter distance races. Phar Lap won races from the 1200 to 3600 marks.

I'll say Phar Lap. Doesn't make Makybe Diva feats any less though.
 

morri (cWo)

First Grade
Messages
6,030
Balmain_Boy said:
Makybe Diva has never won shorter distance races. Phar Lap won races from the 1200 to 3600 marks.

I'll say Phar Lap. Doesn't make Makybe Diva feats any less though.

you sure about that?

i thought i read in the formguide that diva had won from at least 1600m
 

Twizzle

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
155,276
Thierry Henry said:
Could Phar Lap run when the sun had been out?

yep,

and so could the Diva

it was 31 in Melbourne today, and the sun was out
 

Cletus

First Grade
Messages
7,171
Twizzle said:
we'll never know

Pharlap didn't get the chance to win more, coz the bloody Yanks poisoned him

Pffft. Phar Lap competed in three Melbourne Cupps. Won one of them.


No doubt it was a fantastic horse, but I'm happy to say after 75 years, Makybe is better. No doubt.
 

innsaneink

Referee
Messages
29,385
Onan the barbarian said:
Pffft. Phar Lap competed in three Melbourne Cupps. Won one of them.


No doubt it was a fantastic horse, but I'm happy to say after 75 years, Makybe is better. No doubt.

Pfft....theres more than just the end result to consider.

When you know what youre talking about, come back then.

Diva vs Phar Lap

Rhett Kirkwood

October 29, 2005

EVEN 75 years after the most famous Melbourne Cup of them all, Phar Lap's hero status continues to thrive. His name will be mentioned many times between now and Tuesday's great race, not necessarily because of the anniversary of his 1930 success, but because he is still the benchmark for any Australasian horse with a claim to greatness.

Already some pundits are asking where brilliant mare Makybe Diva will sit in comparison to 'Big Red' should she win a record third Melbourne Cup on Tuesday. She is the best mare Australia has seen. But as far as comparisons are concerned, she will not be No.1 in the 'turf hero premiership' - and no other Australasian horse will ever take that mantle from Phar Lap.

In fact, Makybe Diva won't take the runner-up mantle off 1890 Cup winner Carbine.

That is not to denigrate her greatness, but horses had to contend with much sterner conditions - Carbine for example won two races in a day on four occasions - and horse husbandry back then was nowhere near the science it is today.

Back then horses wore forged steel shoes which almost would have been suitable for Dean Lukin to use for weight training. Today's runners are fitted with aluminum plates which are as light as grandma's sponge cake.

Giant leaps have also been made in veterinary care and nutritional supplements to keep a horse at optimum health.

Phar Lap died prematurely because of poisoning as a five-year-old but still crammed in 51 races for 37 wins and five placings. Included in his wins was an international success at Agua Caliente after contending with a harrowing overseas sea voyage, a dramatic climate change and overcoming a hoof injury.

An indication of how demanding trainer 'Hungry Harry' Telford was of Phar Lap is to compare his record with that of Makybe Diva, who has had only 35 starts as a seven-year-old for 14 wins and seven placings.

Sure, modern-day champions run faster times than Phar Lap, but times are a fallacy, in part because today's tracks are more like billiard table surfaces compared to the long grass of yesteryear. None of Carbine's nor Phar Lap's time records stand today, proving the fallacy of using the clock as a measuring stick of horses past and present.

It is also impossible to compare track conditions from one year to the next, which further compounds the time theory.

Suffice to say, Phar Lap's time of 3min27.75sec would have resulted in him beating Carbine by three lengths, even though Carbine ran a record of 3:28.25 which stood for 15 years. On the score of time, Makybe Diva would have thrashed them both by about eight seconds in 2003, or something like 45 lengths.

Apart from his racetrack deeds, which no latter-day champion has come close to emulating, Phar Lap's spirit transcended the track. No other horse will ever be the centre of the same public passion, which was abetted by the privation and despair of the Depression.

It was a time when the populace was desperately seeking heroes and, while the financial gods were cheerless, by way of compensation, the sporting gods were smiling. To provide bright spots amid the gloom they countered with the amazing trifecta of Bradman, Lindrum and Phar Lap.

Just as assuredly as Phar Lap never losing his No.1 mantle, no latter-day equine hero will ever win on each of the four days of the Flemington carnival. Phar Lap ran a total of five miles (9200m) in eight days in 1930 - the Melbourne Cup included - without being extended in any of them.

Flemington - and the rest of Australia - will erupt with Makybe mayhem if she completes the Cup treble, but when it comes to Melbourne Cup sentiment it is odds-on that it will not match the Phar Lap fervour of 1930.

Some 72,000 people paid to enter Flemington to see Phar Lap's Cup, while more than half that amount - estimated to be 40,000 - crammed on to Scotchman's Hill, a knoll overlooking the course from the other side of the Maribyrnong River. They couldn't afford to pay the admittance price, but they were not to be denied their opportunity of seeing Phar Lap become the first - and only - odds-on winner of the Cup.

With jockey Jim Pike in cruise control, Phar Lap won by three lengths, establishing a four-year-old weight-carrying record of 9st 12lb (62.5kg) which remains today.

On the score of Melbourne Cup wins, Makybe Diva is in rarefied air, shooting for a perfect and unprecedented record. Phar Lap started in three Melbourne Cups (and was favourite each time) for only one win, but he should have won two. He was an unlucky third when even-money favourite as a three-year-old after fighting with his rider Bobbie Lewis for most of the race in 1929; he won as he liked in 1930; and compounded for eighth with his record weight of 10st 10lb (68kg) the year after.

While the drama involving Phar Lap being targeted by gunmen on the Saturday before the race and his subsequent dramatic on-course arrival in 1930 has been well documented, what is not as well known is the pressure which was placed on Pike.

Former jockey Edgar Britt revealed in The Phar Lap Collection that Pike, a chronic gambler, rejected a pound stg. 10,000 offer to stop Phar Lap from winning the Melbourne Cup - enough for him to buy a home in either Toorak or Point Piper and set him up for life.

Pike said he "didn't give a damn" about the money; he only wanted to win the Cup on Phar Lap.

Even Phar Lap's beloved strapper Tommy Woodcock was offered a pound stg. 4000 bribe to give his companion a "go slow" on the eve of the race, but, like Pike, he would have nothing to do with anything which could harm Phar Lap.

The race result was what everyone expected with Pike sitting easily on the horse over the final stages after going to the lead at the top of the straight.

A scribe of the day wrote: "When the assembled thousands realised that Phar Lap had the race won Flemington 'went mad'. Phar Lap ran over the last furlong with consummate ease, and no Melbourne Cup would have been won in more stylish or more effortless manner."

So if Makybe Diva is successful in her remarkable Cup effort on Tuesday - and, predictably, already they are suggesting she will start the shortest price favourite since Phar Lap - take in the hyperbole. Then try to imagine what it was like 75 years ago when an even bigger hero was blitzing the turf.
 

Hass

Juniors
Messages
450
Onan.

You do realise that the Melbourne Cup is a handicap and that Phar Lap was carrying 5 kg more than Makybe Diva when it won in 1930 and was carrying almost 10 kg more when it attempted to defend its crown in 1931.

Phar Lap however did win 2 Cox Plates - a Weight for Age event.

Both horses have performed remarkable deeds, but just because Makybe Diva deserves to be considered an immortal doesn't mean we should forget the circumstances in which Phar Lap performed.

Cheers.
 

OVP

Coach
Messages
11,631
Hass said:
Onan.

You do realise that the Melbourne Cup is a handicap and that Phar Lap was carrying 5 kg more than Makybe Diva when it won in 1930 and was carrying almost 10 kg more when it attempted to defend its crown in 1931.

Phar Lap however did win 2 Cox Plates - a Weight for Age event.

Both horses have performed remarkable deeds, but just because Makybe Diva deserves to be considered an immortal doesn't mean we should forget the circumstances in which Phar Lap performed.

Cheers.

Yes but Makybe Diva is a mare ... if she was male, she would easily be penalised as much as Phar Lap was, possibly more. Especially after two previous Cup wins. The fact is, no mare, in the entire history of the cup has EVER ridden with 58kg on her back, let alone win it. The weight penalties are not a good example. Mares simply cant carry as much weight.

Also Phar Lap won 2 Cox Plates because he competed in at least 2 Cox Plates. 2 weeks ago was the first time MAkybe Diva raced in the Cox Plate, and she easily won that.

Im not saying MAkybe is better ... i cant do that, i never saw Phar Lap so its impossible to compare when youve never seen a horse race.

All im saying is that the reasons you've given arent very strong reasons why Phar Lap is better.
 

Cletus

First Grade
Messages
7,171
innsaneink said:
Pfft....theres more than just the end result to consider.

When you know what youre talking about, come back then.

Kiss my arse you idiot.

You're comparing a horse 75 years ago to Makybe Diva?
How good was White Nose you moron?
Come on, pony up. I'm sure you know plenty about it.

What did Phar Lap carry in the 31 cup? Where did it finish?

You've got no idea. I thought Makybe Diva had no hope in this cup. It proved me wrong. If you can name a horse that has won three Melbourne Cups I'll concede it's better than Makybe Diva.

Best distance horse ever.
 

Cletus

First Grade
Messages
7,171
For the biggest dickhead on this thread:

Phar Lap : 8th, carried 10st 10lb.


You f**king idiot, of course Makybe couldn't be better than that carrying a weight record for a mare.

Deadset, I have never come across a more uneducated, philistine attitude.

You are an idiot.
 

Moffo

Referee
Messages
23,986
both champs horses. can't compare due to different eras

i hate makybe though. Its cost me so much money over the years :lol:
 

OVP

Coach
Messages
11,631
OVP said:
Yes but Makybe Diva is a mare ... if she was male, she would easily be penalised as much as Phar Lap was, possibly more. Especially after two previous Cup wins. The fact is, no mare, in the entire history of the cup has EVER ridden with 58kg on her back, let alone win it. The weight penalties are not a good example. Mares simply cant carry as much weight.

Also Phar Lap won 2 Cox Plates because he competed in at least 2 Cox Plates. 2 weeks ago was the first time MAkybe Diva raced in the Cox Plate, and she easily won that.

Im not saying MAkybe is better ... i cant do that, i never saw Phar Lap so its impossible to compare when youve never seen a horse race.

All im saying is that the reasons you've given arent very strong reasons why Phar Lap is better.

Doing some research myself, you would have found far better examples for the for-against Phar Lap record like i did ;).

For (Phar Lap being the greatest) ... He won 4 Group 1 races in THE FIRST WEEK of the 1930 Spring Carnival. In other words, he contested FOUR races in the FIRST WEEK of November, 1930 ... won them all, including the Melbourne Cup at a record weight. FOUR GROUP 1 RACE WINS IN A WEEK ????? NOONE will beat that ... ever.

AGAINST : He was born in NZ. He's not even an Australian horse :lol: :lol:
 
Messages
2,309
Balmain_Boy said:
Makybe Diva has never won shorter distance races. Phar Lap won races from the 1200 to 3600 marks.

I'll say Phar Lap. Doesn't make Makybe Diva feats any less though.

Makybe won over 1400 this campaign. That makes wins from 1400-3200 in one spring. Fair effort.

I have her ahead of Pharlap just, but the amazing thing about Pharlap that will make him stay up there and really leave them level is winning 4 races at Flemington over the 4 days of the carnival in one year. That is outstanding!!
 

The Colonel

Immortal
Messages
41,992
Still think running into third in 1931 carrying 68kgs is a better indicator to exactly how good a horse Phar Lap was........
 

Nuffs

Bench
Messages
4,551
OVP said:
Yes but Makybe Diva is a mare ... if she was male, she would easily be penalised as much as Phar Lap was, possibly more. Especially after two previous Cup wins. The fact is, no mare, in the entire history of the cup has EVER ridden with 58kg on her back, let alone win it. The weight penalties are not a good example. Mares simply cant carry as much weight.

Also Phar Lap won 2 Cox Plates because he competed in at least 2 Cox Plates. 2 weeks ago was the first time MAkybe Diva raced in the Cox Plate, and she easily won that.

Im not saying MAkybe is better ... i cant do that, i never saw Phar Lap so its impossible to compare when youve never seen a horse race.

All im saying is that the reasons you've given arent very strong reasons why Phar Lap is better.

i'm 100% sure that quite a few mares have carried well over 58kg in the cup
WAKEFUL carried 63kg or so and ran 2nd behind a horse who carried 46kg or something like that

no mare has ever won with 58 kg but many have run with a big weight
 

Latest posts

Top