Born here, play there...

[Dean Moriarty]

Joker posted this in international league. Apologoes to him for nicking his post but I thought it was interesting and worth re-posting to the audience in this forum too.

There has been talk about the eligibility issue in RL, so this information about the RWC will provide some interesting background.

http://www.planetrugby.com/TOURNAMENTS/World_Cup_2003/Tournament_News/story_32379.shtml

Born here, play there 05/11/03
Some surprising figures
Joe Rokocoko, the New Zealand wing, said recently that he was looking forward to playing for the country of his birth, Fiji. In terms of the IRB's present regulations, that is no longer possible. Once a player has played for a country, its 'A' team and, in some cases possibly, its Sevens team, he is committed to that country. The old binationals, like Tiaan Strauss (South Africa and Australia), Matt Pini (Australia and Italy) and Jamie Salmon (New Zealand and England) can no longer happen.


There is a general perception that New Zealand takes players from the islands. The islands, surprisingly for some who believe all the traffic is New Zealand-wards, also have players born in New Zealand.

In fact the country with most foreign-born players at the 2003 Rugby World Cup is Samoa, though many of the Samoans born in New Zealand have dual (Samoan and New Zealand) nationality and record their home village in Samoa. The country which sends most of its birthlings abroad is New Zealand.

We have two lists of players at the 2003 Rugby World Cup - donors (i.e. countries of birth) and recipients (i.e. countries played in).

These are the ones we have been able to find. There are likely to be others. If anybody knows of any, we could always add them.

It's fun!

We are dealing only with the World Cup and have included only countries playing at the World Cup, which means that we do not have a category for Zambia where three players were born - George Gregan (Australia), Corné Krige (South Africa) and Dafydd James (Wales). They were all born in Lusaka. Then Christo Bezuidenhout (South Africa) was born in the Canary Islands, but we have not included Spain as a birthplace nor have we included Trinidad where Ed Knaggs of Canada was born.

Donor countries

These are the countries of birth of players who play elsewhere, their playing countries in brackets.

Argentina: Gonzalo Canale (Italy), Martin Castrogiovanni (Italy), Ramiro Martinez (Italy), Santiago Dellape (Italy), Sergio Parisse (Italy), Juan Andres Perez (Uruguay) (six players)

Australia: James Pritchard (Canada), Quintin Fyffe (Canada), Jeff Reid (Canada), Steve Devine (New Zealand), Ben Hinshelwood (Scotland), Rob Russell (Scotland), Nathan Hines (Scotland), John Payne (Tonga), Kain Cross (USA), Brent Cockbain (Wales) (10 players)

Canada: Frank Sheahan (Ireland)

England: Kevin Maggs (Ireland), Malcolm O'Kelly (Ireland), Guy Easterby (Ireland), Simon Easterby (Ireland), Ross Beattie (Scotland), Andy Craig (Scotland), Tom Smith (Scotland), Andrew Henderson (Scotland), Richard Liddington (USA), Iestyn Harris (Wales), Tom Shanklin (Wales), Colin Charvis (Wales) (12 players)

Fiji: Lote Tuqiri (Australia), Joe Rokocoko (New Zealand) (two players)

France: Grégoire Yachvili (Georgia)

Ireland: Kyran Bracken (England)

New Zealand: Jeremy Paul (Australia), Nicky Little (Fiji), Greg Smith (Fiji), Isikeli Nacewa (Fiji), Tony Marsh (France), Rima Wakarua (Italy), Scott Palmer (Italy), Aaron Persico (Italy), Matthew Phillips (Italy), Andrew Miller (Japan), Adam Parker (Japan), Georgia Konia (Japan), Ruben Parker (Japan), Sailosi Tagicakibau (Samoa), Dale Rasmussen (Samoa), Fa'atonu Fili (Samoa), Romi Ropati (Samoa), Earl Va'a (Samoa), Tanner Vili (Samoa), Lome Fa'atau (Samoa), Dominic Feaunati (Samoa), Kas Lealamanu'a (Samoa), Tamato Leupolu (Samoa), Leo Lafaiali'i (Samoa), Kitiona Viliamu (Samoa), Michael von Dincklage (Samoa), Patrick Segi (Samoa), Martin Leslie (Scotland), Glenn Metcalfe (Scotland), Cameron Mather (Scotland), Selilo Martens (Tonga), Gus Leger (Tonga), David Palu (Tonga), Stanley Afeaki (Tonga), Nisifolo Naufahu (Tonga), Milton Ngauamo (Tonga), Sateki Tu'ipolotu (Tonga), Sonny Parker (Wales) (38 players)

Romania:Cristian Stoica (Italy)

Samoa: Mils Muliaina (New Zealand), Jerry Collins (New Zealand), Rodney So'oialo (New Zealand) (three players)

South Africa: Mike Catt (England), Stuart Abbott (England), Brian Liebenberg (France), Kevin Dalzell (USA), Jurie Gouws (USA), Rian van Zyl (USA), Jason Keyter (USA), Gerhard Klerck (USA), Phillip Eloff (USA), Daniel Vickerman (Australia), Gert Peens (Italy) (11 players)

Tonga: Oloseti Fifita (USA), Salesi Sika (USA) (two players)

USA: Ronan O'Gara (Ireland)

Wales: Dorian West (England)

Recipients

The following are the countries who have benefited from players who have come to them after being born elsewhere. The main beneficiaries are Samoa, Italy, Scotland, the USA and Tonga.

Australia: Jeremy Paul, Lote Tuqiri, Daniel Vickerman (three players)

Canada: James Pritchard, Quintin Fyffe, Jeff Reid (three players)

England: Kyran Bracken, Mike Catt, Stuart Abbott, Dorian West (four players)

Fiji: Nicky Little, Isikeli Nacewa, Greg Smith (three players)

France: Brian Liebenberg, Tony Marsh (two players)

Georgia: Grégoire Yachvili

Ireland: Guy Easterby, Simon Easterby, Kevin Maggs, Malcolm O'Kelly, Ronan O'Gara, Frank Sheahan (six players)

Italy: Gonzalo Canale, Martin Castrogiovanni, Santiago Dellape, Ramiro Martinez, Scott Palmer, Sergio Parisse, Gert Peens, Aaron Persico, Matthew Phillips, Cristian Stoica, Rima Wakarua (11 players)

Japan: Andrew Miller, Adam Parker, Georgia Konia, Rueben Parkinson (four players)

New Zealand: Jerry Collins, Steve Devine, Mils Muliaina, Joe Rokocoko, Rodney So'oialo (five players)

Samoa: Sailosi Tagicakibau, Dale Rasmussen, Fa'atonu Fili, Romi Ropati, Earl Va'a, Tanner Vili, Lome Fa'atau, Dominic Feaunati, Kas Lealamanu'a, Tamato Leupolu, Leo Lafaiali'i, Kitiona Viliamu, Michael von Dincklage, Patrick Segi (14 players)

Scotland: Ross Beattie, Andy Craig, Andrew Henderson, Ben Hinshelwood, Martin Leslie, Glenn Metcalfe, Cameron Mather, Nathan Hines, Rob Russell, Tom Smith (10 players)

Tonga: Stanley Afeaki, Gus Leger, Selilo Martens, Nisifolo Naufahu, Milton Ngauamo, David Palu, John Payne, Sateki Tu'ipolotu (eight players)

Uruguay: Juan Andres Perez

USA: Kain Cross, Kevin Dalzell, Phillip Eloff, Ofisa Fifita, Jurie Gouws, Jason Keyter, Gerhard Klerck, John Liddington, Salesi Sika, Riaan van Zyl (10 players)

Wales: Colin Charvis, Brent Cockbain, Iestyn Harris, Tom Shanklin (four players)

They didn't mention that Wallaby prop Matt Dunning was born in Calgary Canada nor players omitted from the RWC like All Blacks fly half Andrew Merthens, born in Durban, South Africa.

 

[ozbash]

nz has a heap of eligible island boys playing union in nz.

i think the islands have a valid argument when they say the nz npc teams wont release P.I players for national duty.
the IRB say the NZRFU must release them.
on the other hand,, you get a province like hawkes bay (npc-2) who have paid their samoan winger $10k to play a couple of months npc reluctant to release. who will pay them the money while the player is away ?

the whole set up is wrong..

when rokokoko isnt good enough for the AB,s he will go play for fiji. the AB,s wont mind, they have had their $$ worth out of him....

 

[SpaceMonkey]

nz has a heap of eligible island boys playing union in nz.

when rokokoko isnt good enough for the AB,s he will go play for fiji. the AB,s wont mind, they have had their $$ worth out of him....

how old were Rococoko and Collins when they moved to NZ? I know Muliaina was only four, therefore as far as I am concerned there is no question of NZ having "stolen" him from anywhere as he is a product of the NZ schooling and rugby system.

 

[ozbash]

no idea but i suspect jerry collins has been here most of his life.

rokokoko is one of the fijians who came over when it was fashionable for them to make a name in s12 wasnt he.

 

[aqua_duck]

no idea but i suspect jerry collins has been here most of his life.

rokokoko is one of the fijians who came over when it was fashionable for them to make a name in s12 wasnt he.

I heard that Rokocoko moved to NZ with his family when he was 5, he's got a pretty thick kiwi accent.

 

[douglasallen91]

no idea but i suspect jerry collins has been here most of his life.

rokokoko is one of the fijians who came over when it was fashionable for them to make a name in s12 wasnt he.

nope rokocoko came over when he was 5 years old!

 

[eastsrule]

Yes I take back Rokockoko. He played for 3 years in the NZ schoolboys side.

 

[The Observer]

nz has a heap of eligible island boys playing union in nz.

i think the islands have a valid argument when they say the nz npc teams wont release P.I players for national duty.
the IRB say the NZRFU must release them.
on the other hand,, you get a province like hawkes bay (npc-2) who have paid their samoan winger $10k to play a couple of months npc reluctant to release. who will pay them the money while the player is away ?

the whole set up is wrong..

Well, the NPC is changing into a 2 div pom/am setup isn't it?

when rokokoko isnt good enough for the AB,s he will go play for fiji. the AB,s wont mind, they have had their $$ worth out of him....

I don't see this as a problem, and I doubt NZ and Fiji would either.

 

[ozbash]

""Well, the NPC is changing into a 2 div pom/am setup isn't it? ""

so the man said last week joker.

""I don't see this as a problem, and I doubt NZ and Fiji would either.""

it would be too late then.
nz would have had the pleasure of joes company for the pinnacle of his footy playing career,, fiji would get the scraps - thats the problem.

 

[The Observer]

""I don't see this as a problem, and I doubt NZ and Fiji would either.""

it would be too late then.
nz would have had the pleasure of joes company for the pinnacle of his footy playing career,, fiji would get the scraps - thats the problem.

That wouldn't necessarily happen at all. Remember that Manu Samoa wanted to select the Four ex All Blacks including Andrew Blowers and Junior Tonu'u. The Manu obviously thought those players could add something.

Who is to say that if Joe didn't get selected for the ABs, and was then selected for Fiji, that would mean he was automatically past it/reject/crap etc? He might well be even better, subsequently play for Fiji and score 4 tries against the ABs.

 

[ozbash]

blowers and junior were well past it.
i dont quite catch on to your argument that if joe was turned down by the AB,s he would easily slot into the fijian team team..
to me , that demeans the fijian team,, we,ll thrash the guts out of him and then you (fiji) get whats left... not fair imho.

anyway,, to me the conflict is the nzrfu contracting these island players for sums of money they would never ever see in the islands.

it buggers up island footy
the AB,s are just a pack of mercenary pricks ?
does professionalism take the game out of rugby ?

but,,
the young island player could retain a bit of national pride and stay at home and play for samoa/fiji .
he doesnt have to come to nz/oz to make himself and his family back home rich...

blowed if i know the answer..

 

[aqua_duck]

To label the all blacks as poachers is abit unfair considering the pretty much the entire squad was developed by the NZ junior system and went through the schoolboys and in some cases the 7's circuit.
They got a few players who were born overseas like Muliaina, Rokocoko, Collins, Devine, So'oialo.

Collins-went through the NZ secondary schools systems and under 19's, he certainly wasn't poached.
Muliaina-moved to NZ as a 4 year old, and went through the secondary school system and 7's circuit.
Rokocoko-Moved to NZ as a 5 year old, played for NZ secondary schools and 7's like Muliaina
So'oialo-went through the under 21's and 7's

Only Devine wasn't developed by the NZ junior system however he was struggling back in Australia, and certainly NZ rugby didn't go all out to poach him.

 

[Dean Moriarty]

I agree with you, aqua duck. The nature of migration in the South Pacific means the ABs will have some Islanders in their side but as you say, they are the ones who have developed those players. It's encouraging to see that there are a number of NZ born players in the Fiji, Samoa and Tonga sides.

The stories behind a lot of these players are interesting. For example, Gregoire Yachvili playing for Georgia with his brother playing for France. Gregoire would not have made the French side but the family have a strong sense of their Georgian heritage, and hence Gregoire made the choice to represent his ancestry. (At least that's how Peter Fitzsimons described it :lol: ).

 

[ozbash]

Mac McCallion has resigned as coach of Fiji in frustration at the unhelpful attitude of the governing International Rugby Union (IRB) towards the poorer nations involved in the sport.


A report in the Fiji Times said the New Zealander had tendered his resignation on Monday, a month after his team were knocked out of the World Cup by a narrow loss to Scotland in their final group match.

McCallion, a former New Zealand Maori who took over as Fiji coach in March 2002, has long been critical of the lack of assistance the Pacific islanders receive from regional rugby superpowers Australia and New Zealand both in terms of resources and regular competition.

"It's really frustrating, the lack of help we get from the IRB and some major countries, and I can't see it improving," he told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's website.

McCallion had repeatedly called for more opportunities for his players, and those of Samoa and Tonga, to play the All Blacks and Wallabies on a regular basis.

But the latest proposal by the major rugby-playing nations is a tournament involving Europe's Six Nations and the Tri-Nations of Southern Hemisphere.

"Now there's talk of a Super Nine, and that means instead of getting more games we're going to get less and I'm not going to wait around for another four years and see that happen," McCallion said.

"What we need is more competition and that's not going to happen. The Super Nine is all about the mighty dollar."

"I've thought long and hard about this. The rich countries are going to get richer, we have a lack of money and a lack of help from Australia and New Zealand.

"It would be a lot different if we got assistance from outside, but that's not happening. There's a lot of talk from the IRB but that's all it is, talk, and there is no action."

McCallion, a former New Zealand coach of the year for his work with the Auckland Blues, introduced a highly disciplined approach to the traditionally flamboyant Fijian rugby in his time in charge.

"Fiji rugby thanks Mac for the passion and belief that he has shown in our players and our potential and for the extraordinary work he has done in very difficult circumstances," FRU chief executive Pio Bosco Tikoisuva told the Fiji Times.

 

[The Observer]

Mac McCallion has resigned as coach of Fiji in frustration at the unhelpful attitude of the governing International Rugby Union (IRB) towards the poorer nations involved in the sport.

Although this is a disappointing outcome and needs to be addressed, it is more to do with finance and thus a different issue to eligibility.