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Can we go to 16 for the World Cup?

TheFrog

Coach
Messages
14,300
Funny how England, Scotland and Wales field "national" teams in the various sports where in fact they are all more or less states of the United Kingdom. Even Great Britain is not a country, it is the name of an island to the north of France.

The situation with England, Scotland and Wales is not too different from NSW and Queensland. Since NSW and Queensland would compete admirably in a World Cup of Rugby League, lets divide Australia up like they divide the UK (origin rules apply). Even better, have an Australian squad as well, picked after the NSW and Qld squads have been selected.
 

1 Eyed TEZZA

Coach
Messages
12,420
If im not mistaken, but I believe England, Wales and Scotland form a union that is the United Kingdom, they were seperate Nations first, unlike NSW and Queensland. (although, NSW is a matter of opinion).
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
If im not mistaken, but I believe England, Wales and Scotland form a union that is the United Kingdom, they were seperate Nations first, unlike NSW and Queensland. (although, NSW is a matter of opinion).
They'e not separate countries at all, England doesn't actually have any legal status. But there's a tradition of them playing international sport separately in soccer due to the sport being invented here and no other opposition. For ages they refused to join FIFA or play in the world cup, so they were allowed to stay separate as a compromise to get them in when they were the best sides. Likewise similar happened in RU, but not RL til recently.
 

Goddo

Bench
Messages
4,257
If im not mistaken, but I believe England, Wales and Scotland form a union that is the United Kingdom, they were seperate Nations first, unlike NSW and Queensland. (although, NSW is a matter of opinion).

Sort of. England has been lording it over Wales in one way or another since the 10th century and harassing them since much earlier. The current Welsh Assembley have much reduced powers compared to the Scotish equivilant.

Scotland and England formed a Union in 1701, but there is a great deal of history between the two. A lot of bribary and politics went into this, as well as forming based on the principle of mutual prosperity and security, the same basic idea behind any federation... eg UN, USA, EU and some elements of the British Empire (see Niall Fergusons book Empire... one of the best books I have ever read. I rate his TV show on Money too). Scotland was looking at having a referendum on breaking from the UK in 2010 or 11, but it got shot down. Still might happen in future.

If Scotland ends up a republic before Australia does is a national disgrace for Australia honestly.

And the final "home nation", Ireland, well we all know the history there.

Australia's history is completely of subserviant colonies bickering amoungst themselves for money and position, but never as nation states. Same reason why cohession on things today like a world cup or standardising education, hospital care, roads et cetera is very hard to get. The states love to fight each other.

Interestingly, WA almost didn't join Australia when federation occured because they thought they would be subjected to Eastern Australian dominance, but joined in the end when they saw the financial and security benefits. Seems that mentality hasn't gone away after 100 years.

Also, NZ almost did join in Federation, only to pull out at the last second. The original constitution document has New Zealand listed as one of the colonies to become states and Western Australia isn't.

There are three key areas of government that a nation has; head of state, parliment and justice system.

Australias head of state is still the queen, but the Governor General is the de facto ruler. The first Australian in the post was Issacs Issacs in the 30s forcing the British to apoint a commissioner to Australia in 1935, but after him there have been a long list of English or very English "Empire-men" right up to the last of them in Kerr in the 70s, who ironically by dismissing Whitlam also set the trend of G-Gs exercising the power of the Queen, making the monarch a rubber stamp. The prominence of Labor governments in the 1970-90s is what has set the trend towards truely Australian G-Gs who can exert the power of the monarch (thanks to Kerr).

As far as our judical system is concerned, it has only been completely independent of the British System since 1986. Another key date here is 1975 apeals act which almost made Australia fully independant in the courts.

Finally our Parliament has been independent, but has taken a long time to evolve into what it is today. Labor (but later conservative) PM Billy Hughes caused a lot of trouble during and after the first world war for the british empire (his protection of the White Australia policy at the Paris 1919 peace treaty was actually one of the catalists for nationalism and fascism in the 30s; easily Australias worst PM, but he was there for a long time (Just because a PM rules for a long time doesn't make them great)), but in terms of government functions, Australia was pretty much subservient to Britain until the second world war when John Curtain said that Australia has to look to America, China, Russia and others for our future and not just Britain. (This is where the idea of ANZUS starts).

He had to fight Churchill very hard to get Australian troops sent back to Australia from North Africa, (Churchill tried to have them sent to India when he couldn't keep them in Africa instead of going to PNG) and is historically seen as an important moment in the powers of Australian parliament. Then we had Menzies and other liberals until the 70s pretending it was still the world of Pax Britania and the cold war was raging, until the modern era of politics started with Whitlams reforms.

Australia has only truely been independent (with the Queen wearing the hat of "Queen of Australia" seperate from the British crown) from the mid 70s or 80s on all three areas of governance.

All that is left to do to be a republic is get rid of the Queen's title, and all the "in theory" power she has. I think a far more important thing for Australia though is constitutional reform... look at the way the state and federal governments work and try to structure it better. The current set up was good in 1901, but is looking terribly daggy in 2009.
 

RedVee

First Grade
Messages
7,029
^ don't forget Singapore as a major catalyst for pulling our troops back from Churchills clutch.
Also, there is a suggestion that a dispute over RU was a reason for NZ not joining as part of Australia!!!
 
Messages
568
if we want to go to 16 for the WC then the England has to improve otherwise the fans wont turn up so the only way we will see 16 teams in the next WC is if England improves or they hold it in Australia again
 

nadera78

Juniors
Messages
2,233
There was an article in an NZ newspaper the other day where the NZRL said the RFL made a presentation to the RLIF regarding a 16 team format. The NZRL fella (Carter??) said they were all shocked by how good a case the RFL put for 16 and not 12 teams, and so they are seriously looking that way now.
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
Also, there is a suggestion that a dispute over RU was a reason for NZ not joining as part of Australia!!!
I think a lot was to do with the contrast between Australian racism and NZ having more respect for their Maoris. However, having said that, Maoris were an exemption from the White Australia policy and could emigrate to Australia legally
 

pcpp

Juniors
Messages
2,266
I think 12 is a perfect number.

16 would probably make the qualification process a bit meaningless and give too many teams a free ride.

In my opinion, the worst thing to see in a World Cup is to see "minnows" thrashing other minnows, which I think would happen if teams like Russia, South Africa, Serbia were involved to make it 16.

Cricket's 2007 World Cup couldn't sustain 16 teams and they are arguably much further ahead internationally. They've moved back to 14 teams for the next world cup. Even RU were talking about going back to 16 teams (from 20).
 

Jankuloski

Juniors
Messages
799
That is true, but on the other hand just getting in the world cup would be massive event for Serbian RL.
 

juro

Bench
Messages
3,825
People need to remember that sometimes just making it to the table is the achievement. Lesser countries still prize making it to the soccer world cup, even though they know that they realistically won't make it past the first round. Countries still send their athletes to the Olympics knowing they will not bring home a medal. What happens at the competition is secondary to them just being there.

I don't know whether it would be possible, but it would be great to see teams from each continent competing in rugby league. But are there countries other than South Africa playing in Africa? Or Japan in Asia? Does anyone play in South America? If regional qualifiers were held with enough notice, would countries like Canada be able to develop a team to compete with USA and Jamaica?

Having one team from each of these areas may take away from stronger areas such as the pacific islands but it could be beneficial for the growth of international rugby league.

I think 16 teams should be the target. It may be better to have 12 for 2013 and then push for 16 for 2017. International rugby league has developed a lot in the last few years but there is a lot more work that still needs to be done.
 

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