celtic the future.

[winnyason]

The last week has been had rumours all over the place i will say this, give this mob a chance in particular the halifax, featherstone, widnes and leigh fans. If your look at there averages they are still larger than the brigend union side when they won the national league a few years back.

That said the games v the big sides the saints, hull, wigan have had the 5000 plus attendances, but the other homes games have been around 3000. No doubt they must look at alternatives, already newport looks to host some games. Why not look at hosting wigan at cardiff next year or swansea. The big problem is not to piss off the fans in brigend and where young kids picking league over rah rah.

Will the fans turn out if the team is a top eight side and brewery is renovated to a good standard. No doubt newport has good facilties why not go for the bigger locations of cardiff or swansea whatever works maybe a type of saints in nrl deal spliting home games.

Recruitment who for next season heard the usual henson and williams rumours nothing wll come of this, they should look at some decent english talent as they are not on overseas quota does anyone have any info heard todd payten as one.

Remember this is a proper expansion side not like catalans which was already there in support just needed a push. It will take time, come 2012 the likes of widnes,fax may get there chance with the stadium problems of salford, saints and plus the nl1 winner of the most seasons leading into 2012 plus another side which is obvious toulouse no doubt.

 

[WireMan]

Not sure they sould play games in a stadium that is to big. They need to build a ground like Warrington or Widnes, a nice small cheap one.

There attendances have been affected recently because there games have clashed with Lions matches. So they are beginning to get numbers in. They need a crowd of about 4500 to break even. If the fans had a team with a chance of winning then that should be a gettable amount.

The Rfl is propping them up at the mo, and they do need some money. However we cannot give up on them now. They have 2 1/2 seasons to improve. If they cannot get enough crowds etc. then maybe pull the plug or move them to North Wales. A stronger welsh team is important for the future though.

 

[cumberlandsashes81]

A few points need to be made about Celtic and their place in the SL:

1. They're going to have a largely different squad next year - the clean-out has already begun (with two players from their NL days already being released) - so they'll almost certainly be more successful in 2010. They're not much different to other promoted and expansion clubs in that sense.

2. They have an undoubted and huge potential - something clubs like Widnes, Leigh, Halifax, etc. simply do not have. The fact that they're able to take games around South Wales shows the large potential market they have and the importance of their existence to the future of the game there. They have the potential to get crowds and support that the others can only ever dream of.

3. The RFL team helping them have also worked with a number of other clubs to find new revenue streams, etc., so they're no different to Catalans and the "heartland" clubs that have required help. Something Widnes fans seem to forget is that they were in administration not long ago...

4. Samuel Leighton is still making money. The players have all been paid (despite rumours to the contrary) and the club isn't in danger of falling over.

5. The clubs that could have been in SL instead probably wouldn't be performing much better on or off the field.

 

[WireMan]

1. This new team has to be full of Welshmen, no point buying in a few more Aussies.

2. Widnes or fax, (maybe not Leigh) have a lot of supporters and good history. A match vs them could easily pull an extra 2000 fans through the turnstyles. At the mo Celtic bring about 200 fans which doesn't mean a lot of money for the other team.

3. 4. 5. Correct. Give em time. Once you plant a seed, you have to let it grow. Only if the plant is rubbish, do you then chop it down...

 

[cumberlandsashes81]

1. This new team has to be full of Welshmen, no point buying in a few more Aussies.

But it won't be full of Welshmen. It won't be for years. If they field a team full of current Welsh lads, they'll perform even worse than they did this year!

They need to be successful to grow support and survive.
Without this success they won't exist to develop any Welsh players at all.
In order to be successful they need mainly imports in the short to medium term.

2. Widnes or fax, (maybe not Leigh) have a lot of supporters and good history. A match vs them could easily pull an extra 2000 fans through the turnstyles. At the mo Celtic bring about 200 fans which doesn't mean a lot of money for the other team.

It would be interesting to compare the away crowds for Celtic matches versus away crowds for Leigh, Fax and Widnes when they were in the big time. Would they really bring 2000 fans?

 

[WireMan]

It would be interesting to compare the away crowds for Celtic matches versus away crowds for Leigh, Fax and Widnes when they were in the big time. Would they really bring 2000 fans?

They would bring more than Celtic because they are closer. Also more home fans will turn up for the Derby matches. For example Widnes vs Wire, Stains or Wigan would be big gates.

These are the matches you look for in the fixture list.

Still want Celtic to suceed though, just wish it wasn't at the expense of some of our bigger teams. I suppose it would be like WA reds in the NRL. People would want them to succeed, but not at the expense of a team like the Roosters?

 

[cumberlandsashes81]

They would bring more than Celtic because they are closer. Also more home fans will turn up for the Derby matches. For example Widnes vs Wire, Stains or Wigan would be big gates.

These are the matches you look for in the fixture list.

Ah, fair enough. I guess the biggest benefit to the competition would come from the derbies that these clubs would bring to SL - Widnes (Cheshire derby?), Leigh (v Wigan?)and Halifax (v Bradford).

Ok - a tick in their column for this.

Still want Celtic to suceed though, just wish it wasn't at the expense of some of our bigger teams. I suppose it would be like WA reds in the NRL. People would want them to succeed, but not at the expense of a team like the Roosters?

If you expand to 18 there's no need for any current club to miss out in the NRL - unless one goes through natural attrition (which seems unlikely - these clubs die very very hard). Though the Roosters are probably one club I wouldn't be too sad to see withdraw from the top-flight... ;-)

 

[Evil Homer]

Suggesting Widnes and Leigh would take big followings away is not really accurate - I can remember attending a game in 2005 where there must have been fully 50 Widnes fans that had made the trip. Apart from anything else, away support is not an important factor and has far too much emphasis placed on it, and the top National League clubs always boast about their away support because it appears big compared to other teams in their league.

With regard to the 'derbies', in Leigh's only SL season their game against Wigan attracted just under 7,500. The game at Wigan attracted 15,000, a standard Wigan crowd, and was won by Wigan 62-6. None of them generate anything like the interest of Hull-Hull KR. In Halifax's last season, their highest attendance was 4,500 and they had 3 sub-2000 crowds, including 1,276 against London which is the lowest top-flight crowd of the decade.

Leigh, Widnes and Halifax have all had a crack at Super League before and Celtic have already performed better on-field than both Halifax and Leigh. They are averaging more than Halifax did in their final season and about 800 less than Leigh. There's no doubting Widnes would have probably attracted a bigger average than Celtic will this season, but they would have struggled just as badly on-field and would not have done anywhere near as much for the development of the game. You also have to remember that Widnes, Halifax and Leigh have been going for over 100 years, while Celtic have been going for 3 and a half. Leigh should not even be considered for a license, while Halifax still have problems and I doubt would contribute. Widnes are in a decent enough position, provided that their finances are in order, but they need to go down a different route than they did last time they were in Super League, as quite honestly on the field they were a disgrace to the competition and to themselves.

That 'team full of Welshmen' comment actually made me grin. Aussie fans, this is the kind of moronic statement we have to put up with all the time in the UK

 

[cumberlandsashes81]

Suggesting Widnes and Leigh would take big followings away is not really accurate - I can remember attending a game in 2005 where there must have been fully 50 Widnes fans that had made the trip. Apart from anything else, away support is not an important factor and has far too much emphasis placed on it, and the top National League clubs always boast about their away support because it appears big compared to other teams in their league.

With regard to the 'derbies', in Leigh's only SL season their game against Wigan attracted just under 7,500. The game at Wigan attracted 15,000, a standard Wigan crowd, and was won by Wigan 62-6. None of them generate anything like the interest of Hull-Hull KR. In Halifax's last season, their highest attendance was 4,500 and they had 3 sub-2000 crowds, including 1,276 against London which is the lowest top-flight crowd of the decade.

Leigh, Widnes and Halifax have all had a crack at Super League before and Celtic have already performed better on-field than both Halifax and Leigh. They are averaging more than Halifax did in their final season and about 800 less than Leigh. There's no doubting Widnes would have probably attracted a bigger average than Celtic will this season, but they would have struggled just as badly on-field and would not have done anywhere near as much for the development of the game. You also have to remember that Widnes, Halifax and Leigh have been going for over 100 years, while Celtic have been going for 3 and a half. Leigh should not even be considered for a license, while Halifax still have problems and I doubt would contribute. Widnes are in a decent enough position, provided that their finances are in order, but they need to go down a different route than they did last time they were in Super League, as quite honestly on the field they were a disgrace to the competition and to themselves.

That 'team full of Welshmen' comment actually made me grin. Aussie fans, this is the kind of moronic statement we have to put up with all the time in the UK

Thanks Evil Homer - saved me trying to track down the stats...

This was my impression of how it is / was. My memories of when these clubs were in Super League (though I didn't follow the competition nearly as closely as I do now) was that these clubs struggled badly on/off field (and that dodgy ex-Parramatta players often turned up playing for them - take a bow, Colum Halpenny).

 

[winnyason]

any word on there recruits next year, next a good outside back to start are any of the acedemy kids ready. Onto the likes of widnes, leigh, fax have very short memories do they remember there times on sl some of there attendances not flash.

 

[cumberlandsashes81]

any word on there recruits next year, next a good outside back to start are any of the acedemy kids ready.

They've released Damien Quinn and Tony Duggan.

The only things I've seen in relation to recruitment have been rumours - some Welsh RU player (he's apparently married to the singer Charlotte Church - never heard of him, though) and Chris Walker from the Titans.

I don't follow Celtic closely enough to know who is coming through the ranks - though I think one or two of their academy players have made debuts (?). Someone will probably fill in the blanks...

 

[WireMan]

I'm sorry you think my comments are moronic Homer. However there also true. I'm all for the expansion, i've never said otherwise. But replacing Aussies with different Aussies is hardly going to expand the international game!

Also to say a Wire vs Widnes game is the same as Wire vs Celtic is a bit naive. There will be more people in the ground, both home and away fans. This means more money for the game. Celtic bring about 3 men and a dog so i can't see Widnes bringing less.

Leigh i agree are not upto super league. Comedy rumour of the day however is as Wigan don't have there own stadium they could move to Leigh (which is in Wigan) as they have a nice new one.

Next year the novelty of a trip to Wales is gone, the away fans may drop a bit. I hope Celtic can generate there own fans, i really do. Teams in the North don't have much money themselves, so we can't prop to many teams up. Maybe a move to Newport would be better. Bigger place, better ground, more supporters?

Union player is Gavin Henson. Shane Williams has also been linked (well i say linked, he said in an interview he may one day try League). Can't see either myself.

 

[Evil Homer]

So which Welsh players are they going to fill the team with? Mysterious, magical Welsh players that don't exist? I'm struggling to see all these available Welsh players floating around just waiting to be signed by Celtic.

Who honestly cares about away support? It's pathetic that people place such emphasis on it. It's up to the home team to generate a crowd, they shouldn't be relying on away fans to get attendances up to scratch. Football clubs do not moan about the lack of away fans coming from places like London, neither do NFL teams. And apart from anything else Widnes, Halifax and Leigh all have below average away support. Get a grip FFS.

 

[WireMan]

So if football or NFL teams don't need away supporters, then that means Rugby League doesn't either? Good logic. United sold there best player for 80 million, should St Helens or Wigan do the same? Completely different games.

If your saying A Wire, Celtic game generates as much interest as a Wire, Widnes game you are wrong. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.

We would all like every stadium to be full every week with home supporters, however in the real world that doesn't happen. I have a grip, I have said on many occasions i am for expansion. However i'm not going to invent a fantasy world to say its good.

There are plenty of Welsh players, there are a few good youngsters around Wire have two for starters, they have had 3 years to train some. They could probably poach some from local Union teams. What is the point of replacing an Aussie with an Aussie? If they promote youth will they finish lower in the league next year?

 

[cumberlandsashes81]

I know I'm not saying anything new here but -- There's always a trade-off between these things... On one hand it would be nice to see all the traditional derbies, etc., but on the other it's important for the game as a whole to expand. Celtic's entry made the TV rights worth more which is good for all clubs...

Also, you've got the new Championship which is a decent competition for many of these teams to play in - and it's probably the best place for them. It's affordable for the clubs to participate in, has a game a week on the tele and has opportunities for traditional derbies, etc.

 

[Evil Homer]

I never said Warrington v Celtic would generate the same level as interest as Warrington v Widnes, although I think most neutrals would probably be more interested in the Celtic game and any other side apart from Warrington would have more interest in playing Celtic than Widnes. That's not the point though, gate revenue is a small income stream compared to sponsorship and television money, and Celtic being in a new area adds considerable value to both of those. So they bring a lot more money into the game than Widnes's 150 extra travelling fans. It's a sad state of affairs if clubs are relying on the money from visiting supporters to make ends meet, and thankfully this is far from the case.

FWIW, football division 3 clubs have very little away support and get by just fine. As do Championship RL clubs. Your point is just completely ridiculous.

There are plenty of Welsh players, there are a few good youngsters around Wire have two for starters, they have had 3 years to train some. They could probably poach some from local Union teams. What is the point of replacing an Aussie with an Aussie? If they promote youth will they finish lower in the league next year?

Name one Welsh player available. Rhys and Ben Evans are not available, they are contracted to Warrington, and they are only juniors anyway. I cannot believe you expect Celtic to have developed a fully Welsh team in one year :lol:

As an aside, how many Widnes players do Widnes have in their team? How many juniors did they bring through in their Super League days, I can think of very few?

 

[WireMan]

I never said Warrington v Celtic would generate the same level as interest as Warrington v Widnes, although I think most neutrals would probably be more interested in the Celtic game and any other side apart from Warrington would have more interest in playing Celtic than Widnes. That's not the point though, gate revenue is a small income stream compared to sponsorship and television money, and Celtic being in a new area adds considerable value to both of those. So they bring a lot more money into the game than Widnes's 150 extra travelling fans. It's a sad state of affairs if clubs are relying on the money from visiting supporters to make ends meet, and thankfully this is far from the case.

FWIW, football division 3 clubs have very little away support and get by just fine. As do Championship RL clubs. Your point is just completely ridiculous.

Name one Welsh player available. Rhys and Ben Evans are not available, they are contracted to Warrington, and they are only juniors anyway. I cannot believe you expect Celtic to have developed a fully Welsh team in one year :lol:

As an aside, how many Widnes players do Widnes have in their team? How many juniors did they bring through in their Super League days, I can think of very few?

Most Neutrals don't give a stuff either way, thats one of the problems. Widnes is a much bigger teams interest wise than Celtic. I don't know why you are trying to say anything different. Clubs are dependant on supporters. Hence the reason clubs are struggling. If sponsorship etc. was enough then no teams would be struggling.

FWIW a lot of thrird division clubs are struggling. Most Championship RL clubs are part time.

Who said a fully Welsh team? Stop making things up to prove that Celtic is a good idea. I said don't replace an Aussie with an Aussie. How will that improve the Welsh national team? how will that improve rugby in Europe? Which is the whole point of expansion! If they haven't got anybody at all coming through, then that is hardly good for the game.

 

[Evil Homer]

Interest wise? Do you mean they are able to attract bigger crowds? That is to be expected, since they have been going for 100 years longer than Celtic. If you are talking about who people would rather play, then apart from being completely irrelevant I would suspect most people outside of Lancashire would be more interested in a game against Celtic than Widnes. Which clubs are struggling? I do not think that 150 more traveling supporters would really do a lot to alleviate the problems of all these struggling clubs.

Celtic do have players coming through, they have a decent reserve side and a few youngsters who have made their debuts this year. However it is laughable to think that they will have a heap of Super League standard players ready after one season. Improving the quality of the squad is obviously necessary and you still have not identified any Welsh players that Celtic could sign, so I do not understand what point you are trying to make. And to be honest, I don't think you know yourself.

 

[1 Eyed TEZZA]

I hardly see how Celtic producing Welsh players will improve the Wales national side. Catalans have been around for a while and France i think has been rather dissapointing.

As for the interest, I would rather watch a English club vs a Welsh club then an English club vs an English club. BUT I would rather watch Leeds vs St Helens then Celtic vs Catalans purely because of the standard of Rugby League that would be played. But if Catalans and Celtic become competitive, I fail to see how it wouldnt create interest. Because I was 7 when the Warriors entered the comp here, Its hard for me to calculate the interest before and after the Warriors entered the comp.

 

[cumberlandsashes81]

I hardly see how Celtic producing Welsh players will improve the Wales national side. Catalans have been around for a while and France i think has been rather dissapointing.

This is their fourth season. Prior to that there were hardly any full-time French players. Now there are many more - and eventually this will lead to a competitive French national side. How long will it take before they beat the big 3 again? No one knows, but without full-timers they have no hope at all of ever doing it. The same goes for Celtic and Wales.

As for the interest, I would rather watch a English club vs a Welsh club then an English club vs an English club. BUT I would rather watch Leeds vs St Helens then Celtic vs Catalans purely because of the standard of Rugby League that would be played. But if Catalans and Celtic become competitive, I fail to see how it wouldnt create interest.

Catalans aren't competitive? They finished third last year, have made a Challenge Cup Final and are currently two wins off the play-offs. They've done quite well IMO.

In terms of the Warriors - it certainly boosted the coffers of the ARL at the time as suddenly the TV rights were worth a lot more across the ditch. Personally, I was only a teenager with little interest in anything outside my own team and was probably more resentful of the Warriors joining than anything - partly because it added an away game I was definitely not going to able to get to.