Club Constitution (St George Illawarra)

[TheSaint]

Supportinga Joint Venture Club can be a bit stressfull and upsetting at times. It seems every time the team is on the losing streak, the blame goes onto one faction, or their is a fear of being taken over and the list goes on.

In responce to this, I think all the fans should have some form of reasurance of what the club means, will mean and where it will be headed in the future. There are many different oppinions with in the supporter group ranging from Die hard Steelers, to those calling for the Return of a full St George. In the middle are people who just accept the Joint Venture, Casual supporters, those who want to protect the memory and Tradition of their old club with in the Joint Venture and so on. A Club Constitution could be away to help unify the Club and to reasure the fans for the future existance of the club.

I'll try to put my own personal political leanings aside and attempt to bring up some ideas that should exist in such a Constitution.

The name of the club must always remain as St George Illawarra Rugby League Football Club.
-That issue should be non-negotiable. The Club aims to represent two regions and one way to do this is to keep the name of both regions in the name. "Dragons" may be deemed to be more marketable, but a name change would be the most devisive thing. It is the St George Name that is of most importance to those who previously supported that club. The St George name must remain at all costs. If the St George name is there, then so should the Illawarra name. The Illawarra in the name is all so fundamental to the gaining and keeping of support from that region.

TheEmblem must always remain a representation of St George and The Dragon.
- Badges change. Even the emblems of many traditional Sporting Clubshave minor changes so it is unreasonable to expect the emblem of St George Illawarra not to change over time. In fact, the current badge has only been in existance since 1978.I don't want to see us with a Cartoon Dragon on the Jumper, but the main thing is that it remainsas the image that is currently on the current badge.

The Home Jersey MustAlways bea White Jersey with a Red "V".
- Sort of goes with out saying. The Red "V"is the most easily recognisabe symbol inRugby League and has a proud tradition. Only a fool would try and get rid of it. Shorts and Socks will allways change Slightly. The Current ones were onlypart of the Steelers Uniform for a short amount of time. Even theSt George's shorts weren't allways White with two red stripes. They used to be plain white up until the 70's.

The club must aim to represent both the St George and Illawarra regions fairly with a significant* amount of home games played in each reason.
-50:50 is ideal, but there has to be some room to move. * Significant would have to be at least one third.If a team represents two regions, then games must be shared between two regions. Personally, ifthere is 12 home games, the split should be 6 Wollongong, 4 Kogarah, 2 Stadium Australia/SFS for bigtraditional games such as against the Bulldogs or Parramtta.

The Traditions and proud Histories of both clubs that formed the Joint Venture will be honored within the Joint Venture. The Record ofboth clubs shall be included as part of the Joint Venture.
- A bit of a tricky one. I'd like to see it as: Establish 1921, 1st Grade Representation of the Illawarra since 1983 and Unity since 1999.
Premierships would be curently: 15 (15 St George). Players who played forone of the two clubs prior to 1999 should be recognised as one club players. I'd all so have something whereplayers from the Illawarra who go on to represent St George Illawarra have there games also classedas some sort of Regional Representative, and those who come up from St George as District representatives.

If It ever be deemed that the Joint Venture should be broken apart, then this may only occur if both St George andIllawarra could both return to the Premier League as they were prior to 1999.
- A bit controvercial but I think it is an important statement. In the future, the Illawarra region may have the means to establish a stand alone 1st grade club. I don't think St George supporters should lose their club, like wise the other way. The St George side of thingsat present financiallyfunds the Joint Venture. If it was decided that they wanted the club playing full time out of the St George District or else where in Sydney, First Grade Rugby League could be lost to the Illawarra. This is just to make sure no matter what happens, both sets of supporters who's club formed the joint Venture, would still have a club to support. If the Joint Venture was considered a Merger, then such a clause may not be needed as a Merger is much more permanent.

 

[imported_youngie]

I couldn't agree more with this The Saint. Many extremely valid points, hopefully this would be the way to unify all Saints supporters, thereby making us stronger.
This could also be a great piece of PR and marketing for the club if they used something like this. Have you sent an e-mail to the club outlining this proposal? hopefully it would be something they would look at.
The point pertaining to an even split between Illawarra and Sydney in terms of home games is very important, but would likely be overlooked by the club.
The uneven share of games is a club decision that still grates on me, being a Sydney fan. I will still travel, but I'd much prefer some equality.
Just one thing, could you explain what you mean by the emblem a bit more?? It sounds like your saying it can't change and also that it can? I'm a bit confused.
In closing, you've got my support with this idea, very good thinking

 

[TheSaint]

I like the current emblem and don't want to see much change to it. How ever, for me the tradition is more in what is depicted in the emblem, and that is the image of St George and the Dragon. In the future, there might be a move to remove the St George and Illawarra from the emblem. This in itself wouldn't upset me to much as the emblem used for St George prior to 1978 didn't include any wording. I wouldn't like to see the word Dragon placed any where on the Jersey, as there is a tradition of not having the clubs nickname anywhere on the Uniform. St George has been known as the Blood and Bandages, Dragon Slayers, Dragons, Illawarraites and the Saints.

What I am proposing is to keep the essence of the Emblem, while allowing some room forslight alterations, lets say in2009 they want a special 10 yearemblem or something such asthe foundation clubs did with for 90 years, Parramatta nad Manly for 50 and even Newcastle for 10. It could even mean 100 years in 2021 if we could be so lucky.

I hope that sort of answered your question.

By the way, if I did propose something to the club, the emblem issue would probably beworded a lot more strongly.

Liverpool Football Club in England is a good example of whta I'm trying to put accross. Their emblem allways features the Liver Bird, all though it has been constantly changing over the last 30 years.

 

[imported_youngie]

That does answer my question Saint, cheers. I understand what you mean now. I was unaware that it was traditional not to have the Dragons name on the jerseys, I believe that any tradition we've got we should hang on to. A side with the great traditions of Saint George needs to treasure them.

Would the NRL be opposed to the club keeping the past Saint George and Steeler records as part of the clubs history, or was it the club that decided to start all records again from 1999? I've never been a fan of this, the old Saints records should be kept, not ignored,.

 

[TheSaint]

From the view Point of most supporters, It is still St George. Just the way other clubs have rivalaries with the club is because of the St George andnot the Illawarra. The problem is more 1982 to 1998 when St George and the Illawarra existed at the same time in the same League. It's a bit hard to claim a St George Illawarra victory for lets say the semi Final in 1992 between St George and the Steelers. If the Joint Venture was just a take over it wouldn't be an issue. It's hard to say what will happen in the future but it is more likely that St George will be remembered more then the Illawarra. What recognition this will earn, who knows.

I don't mind having a seperate St George Illawarra record book, but I think there must be a continuation with Premierships. The fact their were no Premierships for the Illawarra, or for that matter St George during that time period, makes it a lot easier to justify keeping St George's Fifteen Premierships. It would be a lot harder for the Wests Tigers with Balmain (11) and Wests (4) to claim 15 Premierships when they were rivals for 90 odd years. With our Joint Venture, it is different.

With regards to records, at the moment, I feel it is most important that certain players be deemed to have played for one club. players like Lance Thompson and Trent Barret. They still represent the districts they represented in 1998, and so why should they be considered to have played for two clubs.

On a Personal note, I'd love to see St George Illawarra as a direct continuation of St George. How ever, at this time, I think it would be inapproperiate to argue and fight over such an issue. Maybe in 10 years time when things have settled a bit we can have the St George Record recognised in time for the 90th aniversary. We can only hope.

 

[Girdler's_GIRL]

Just one thing on the home grounds, I always wanted to know what it was like travelling to two home grounds? Being a penrith supportter, I always like the fact that every second week I can go to my local ground and see the Panthers lose again.
I know it is a joint venture and your trying to keep everyone happy, although I would imagine that seeing your team once every month would be a bit of a bummer and it wouldnt feel like the team is part of the community.
Just an outsider's opinion lookin in.

 

[imported_youngie]

Girdler's Girl: It's not a huge hassle travelling to two different grounds.As a Sydney based supporter I would prefer all games to be played in Sydney, but that's just not possible. The Illawarra fans understandably deserve to have games played in their reigion.
Thetravel is different week to week, after our loss to Melbourne the trip felt like 4 hours, after the win against Canberra it felt like 10 minutes.
It is a hassle travelling all the way tothe Gong on a regular basis but I'd travel to Albury for the Saints. The only big problem I havewith the situation is thatthere is an unfair split of games. The games should be split evenly between each home ground, but more games are played at WIN and this situation will continue.
I'm happy to go to The 'Gong, but only half the time, no more!

The Saint: another well balanced post, your better than I am at catering for our Illawarra brethren. My view point will always be much more St George orientated, but I can still understand the point of view. I'm a big fan of your constitution idea. I hope you'll send it into the club, and hopefully they will use it.
The major reason I think the records should be kept is to ensure that the names of Saint George hero's from the past are not forgotten. Of course the greats will be remembered, but we've got to be careful with our heritage.

 

[imported_SaintDoc]

Hello all!
The Saint - I agree with alot of what you have said. The only aspect which I disagree on you with is your last point, the inclusion of an "out clause".
The purpose of your constition was to reassure fans, during the hard times, of the identity this great club is trying to forge. If your last point was included, it could well intensify the feeling of splitting.
Youngie - I don't think the NRL would be opposed to the inclusion of St.George's premierships, I think the club itself would be the biggest hurdle. The fact of the matter it is a new club. However an argument which I often like to raise, is that if the stance taken by the club with regard to official history was taken by the NRL, then the only clubs to have one a premiership would be Brisbane, Melbourne and Newcastle, as the NRL is a joint venture between the ARL and Superleague, therefore all the former ARL and NSWRL premierships were part of another, past organisation, that is now dead. Its a bit out of context, but bleh!
Good luck with your hsc - i'm doing it too

 

[imported_youngie]

Saint Doc: That makes a lot of sense. The NRL wouldn't have a problem with our records, it's simply a club decision. I didn't think of that at first.
And thanks, good luck with your studies as well. I'm at Hurlstone Agricultural High School, where do you go?

 

[imported_SaintDoc]

Peakhurst High (or Georges River College, Peakhurst Campus as its now known!)
Only 2 years ago, a certain M.Gasnier was walking around our corridors!!

 

[TheSaint]

I can see your point on the Get Out clause, but in effect, this get out clause does more for binding the club then anything else.

It requires the funding to be available for two what would be two new clubs administrative and player wise to be set up and accepted into the League. It's a big ask. The fact is that this is a long way off from happening so it would basically keep the Joint Venture together.

A break is a possibility and one the administration should be prepared for. It sounds devisive, but I believe it to be binding.

 

[imported_SaintDoc]

Fait enough Saint, when you put it like that I understand where you're coming from.
I think the constition is a great idea - pergaps it could be published on the website or something so that fans always had access to it.
I agree that the logo should be left open to change - but I can't see it happening. One think I unfortunately could see happening (and I would hate to see it) is the deletion of the words "St.George Illawarra", and placing "Dragons" where it currently says St.George. I think this would be a terrible shame, but give it 5 years, I wouldnt at all be surprised

 

[Hass]

Coming from a neutral viewpoint (but understanding the needs of both sides having lived with both St.George and Illawarra supporters over the years), I'd just like to say a few things.

It is vital for the club to recognise its establishment as being 1921. A wording I'd have that is similar to Saint's would go- "Established 1921- Illawarra Established 1982- Unified 1999".
It might even be an idea to have this on the logo (kind of like the 90th anniversary banners Wests etc. had in '97). Apart from that the Logo needs to stay pretty much the same.

In fairness, if there are an odd number of games then the 'gong deserves more than Sydney. This is the only time that people from Illawarra can see their team in their own city. The team would play numerous matches in Sydney (albeit away), allowing Sydney fans to get to more games in their own city.

While, the Red V must remain the home jersey, any future away strips should be a predominatly red feature to give the Illawarra section something in way of the jersey...this jersey would obviously only be used on limited ocassions.

Club records should run as if they were St.George's records from 1921 onwards with asterix marks placed besides the years 1982-98. Here composite Illawarra records can be kept, however they would not count towards the Joint Venture's overall matches won- only St.George matches would count.

This has to be the case- St.George are the most famous team in history and must be maintained.

I'll leave you with a quote I've used many times, it comes from Bob Millward when the two teams were having Joint Venture talks, "if the NSWRL had come to us in 1981 and said you can have the most famous team in the history of the league, with a record run of premierships, and the greatest history playing out of Illawarra- do you think we would have said no?".

Cheers.

 

[TheSaint]

I like a lot of what you said Hass. How ever, I disagree with the statement that the Illawarra deserves more games. It will bea 5:7 split next year. The fact is, evey year of the Joint Venture, Sydney had given the club the most support in regards to crowd attendances. Even with one less game, more people went through the gates in Sydney.

That is why I believe it should just stay an even split. It doesn't give anyone an excuse to argue.

 

[imported_Noodles]

I think you have come up with a great proposal (I'm an ex Steelers supporter by the way)
The great strengths that each side brings to the JV is St George's great history and supporters, and the Illawarra provides a great Rugby League area with an expanding population. If either side is felt ignored, one of these big assets is lost. Your proposal seems to cover many of the concerns either side might have.
However I agree with what Hass said about splitting the games. If the number of home games are odd, then the Gong should get the 1 extra game, but the split should be 50/50 is the games are even. (By the way I also now live in Sydney- so more game's at WIN is not in my personl interest)
This season there were 13 home games with 6 at the SFS and 7 at WIN, with the away game against the Roosters at the SFS it gave 7 at each ground which is about as fair as you can get.
In saying that, if the split is 5/7 for next year then this is wrong.

 

[imported_youngie]

I am just concerned that we will go from one extra game one year, to two the next, three the following year and so on.
I believe the club signed an agreement this year to always play more games in WIN, I felt that this was a slap in the face to the clubs majority Sydney fans.
I agree if there are odd games then WIN should get the extra game, but a situation where more games are played each year at WIN is simply not fair.

Another point I feel should be added is a commitment to develop a ground in Saint George territory. It is easier for me to get into the city than the Saint George area, but we need a ground that can become a fortress and give us a real home ground advantage. In addition our traditional stomping ground is serviced.

 

[TheSaint]

Not playing at Kogarah oval is essentially the club telling casual supporters to "Piss Off!" I'm a diehard so I will travel any where. The problem is Casuals don't want to travel so far and thus leaving the ground is just throwing away our so called "Market Share." Unless the crowd is going to be clearly over 20,000, it should be at Kogarah or WIN. Anything that requires more, should be taken elsewhere due to demand (sort of like the old match of the day senario).

Kogarah Oval requires a little bit of work done to it which would beachievable if the club had the desire.

All though I personally don't see the home ground advantage as a reason for success or as an excuse for incompitance, it's more about the fans. The fans want their traditional ground in the clubs traditional home town. It's better for atmosphere, gate takings and just an over all feeling about the club.

Playing out of Kogarah Oval and the preservation of that great ground sould be part of the club constitution.

 

[imported_youngie]

I must admit I'm confused by the Kogarah Oval issue, I thought that it was local government reasons as to why developments could not take place.
It seems like an extremely complex issue, I just hope that the club is not stuffing around the supporters.

I'd love every game to be at Kogarah, I just figured it was not a possibility

 

[TheSaint]

The Kogarah Oval issue is one where you have three people standing in a triangle formation. When ever one is questioned, they blame someones else in the triangle, who blames someone else and the cycle goes on.

The League, Council and Club are those standing in that triangle of blame.

The League would be the easy ones to win over.

The Club doesn't seem to want to invest in what has been dubbed "Hardware" yet this does not see them investing in the Hawks Basketball team or lobbying for improvements to WINStadium.

A counciler at the R2k Rally refered to a plan presented by the club which was described as less detailed then a rough sketch for a car port.

For mine, it is the Club who are the most responsible.All they had to say was that they planed to improve the groundlike what happened atLeichart andCampletown, and the chances are we would be happily playing half our games at that sacred ground.

A Club official has all so been quoted as saying that Kogarah Oval doesn't meet "Dragons Criteria". A complete load of shite and a sign the club is run by incompitant wanna be buisness men who would fail in the real world where they would have to survive because of their skills and not because they belong to an old boys club.

 

[imported_youngie]

Thanks for the explanation Saint.
It really doesn't look like we can expectmany games at Kogarah in times to come, unless the club bights the bullet and addresses the issue, which I would expect them not to do.
At least there should be a few games at Kogarah next year, maybe if these games are huge successes then the club will be forced to reassess it's position.
Is there any indication yet as to if and how many games will be at Kogarah? I've heard that there will be a few games, including the opening round local derby against the scum.