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Dugan vows to make most of State of Origin second chance

possm

Coach
Messages
15,591
Dugan's move to right centre only makes sense if there is a better fullback earmarked for recruitment. For example if Boyd was coming with Bennett.
 

Dezziedc

Juniors
Messages
665
Dugan's move to right centre only makes sense if there is a better fullback earmarked for recruitment. For example if Boyd was coming with Bennett.

But Boyd is reportedly only on $400k a year and that falls out of the spine salary band.
 

FlameThrower

Bench
Messages
3,557
We'll Boyd may have an issue if Bennent leaves Knights, Broncos already have Barber unless he is centre or wing up at Broncos? No chance of him back here at Dragons...
 

saint.nick

Coach
Messages
19,401
Dugan may be a better fullback, but having Boyd at FB and Dugan at centre could possibly give more balance.
 

DUB888

Juniors
Messages
377
Dugan's move to right centre only makes sense if there is a better fullback earmarked for recruitment. For example if Boyd was coming with Bennett.

Was my first thought when Dugan was moved , along with Williams ,Green moving on (start of player clean out) , Hunts injury? , Mata,Runci and Quinlan getting a go.......Marys call or new coach pulling the strings.
 
Messages
1,338
th


Found this unauthorised picture of Cherry Evans during Origin week when he couldn't train with the side.
 

Dezziedc

Juniors
Messages
665
If you are right Dez and Duges is there for the long hall, then I can say with some confidence Mary wont be.

I don't think he is there for the long haul. I think once Farrell returns Dugan will be moved back to fullback. I think what Mary is doing is trying to utilise the best available talent for the benefit of the team.

As everyone has highlighted - and I don't think anyone has disagreed - Dugan is primarily a fullback. There are issues with his game as a fullback - again we are all in total agreement. These are basically centered around his passing game and his ability to play a role within a set move. His kick returns should be valuable - but not in this current team. They are being wasted and have not provided any value over the past 2 months.

I think the issue with retaining him as fullback and bringing in, say Charly, is that you have a greater range of issues to work with in return for 0 improvement. So for example, we still have the issues with the forwards, we still have the issues with Dugans passing game and crowding his outside men, and you introduce new issues around adding Charly to the back line (Charly may have defensive issues and definately isn't as dynamic as Dugan or even Farrell).

By moving Dugan to centre and bringing in Quinlan, you are basically adding a quality centre into the team and another ball player. Nobody can deny that even with his limited experience in the position, Dugan is a much better centre proposition than anything else we have available at the moment. He is strong, can bust a line and has pretty good defense.

Quinlan does have deficiencies in the custodian role but he does add another dimension into the attacking line. So in effect, without having to work on the forwards at all, you have improved the teams attacking ability in 2 key areas. It buys time for the coaching staff to focus on the forwards only and at the same time adds fire to the back line that, when it clicks, will be an oppositions nightmare. Quinlan would make a great utility but at the moment there is no room in the team for a utility - and I personally like the 2 dedicated hooker rotation rather than add in a utility player who has no experience in a hooker role. So it makes some sense to have him in the team in a position where his skills and experience can be utilised.

Contrary to the belief of yourself and others, the season isn't over just yet. There is still a chance we can make the 8. It gets slimmer each week, but what I see Mary doing is trying out an option to give him the best chance of achieving that - and you have to give him props for not giving up on our chances of reaching the 8. As far as we know he is only here for 1/2 a season and I think the forwards are too big of a task to tackle in that short period - not to mention potentially the only real solution may be to recruit. This move has the potential for more short term reward.

As I said, I think Farrell is our long term centre and Dugan our fullback. All I am saying is I think this is a reasonable solution in the short term. It may work, it may not. There is no denying that we have seen some improvement in the team over the last couple of weeks and there could be many contributing factors to this (Price gone, Mary's influence, Benji's influence etc). But you can't just dismiss the fact that this change could well have made some difference to the way the team are playing.
 

BennyV

Referee
Messages
22,576
Very bias argument there Dessie. On one hand, you highlight one deficiency of Runciman while ignoring the benefits of having him in the team (good ball runner, can set up outsiders, speed and future planning). On the other hand, you brush over Quinlans deficiencies and dont even mention what we lose by not having Dugan at fullback.

Yes, the current option was a solution to an issue, but its not the only one. When Farrell went down, we could have brought Mata'utia into right centre, where he is quite accomplished and dangerous. Or we could have moved Beale to his natural right side and played Runciman on the left. IMO both of these have less down side than moving Dugan and playing Quinlan, and personally I would have picked Mata'utia as right centre over Farrel at the start of the season...just my opinion.

Apart from that, I struggle believe thay Mary made this change to benefit our chances of making the 8. Rather, it more to do with getting Dugan to fill in for JMorris for the blues. If he stayed fit, may have been a different story.

I dont think many coaches would take the option of weakening a key position like fullback just to strengthen a centre, particularly when we have reasonable backup centres ready to go.
 

Dezziedc

Juniors
Messages
665
Very bias argument there Dessie. On one hand, you highlight one deficiency of Runciman while ignoring the benefits of having him in the team (good ball runner, can set up outsiders, speed and future planning). On the other hand, you brush over Quinlans deficiencies and dont even mention what we lose by not having Dugan at fullback.

Yes, the current option was a solution to an issue, but its not the only one. When Farrell went down, we could have brought Mata'utia into right centre, where he is quite accomplished and dangerous. Or we could have moved Beale to his natural right side and played Runciman on the left. IMO both of these have less down side than moving Dugan and playing Quinlan, and personally I would have picked Mata'utia as right centre over Farrel at the start of the season...just my opinion.

Apart from that, I struggle believe thay Mary made this change to benefit our chances of making the 8. Rather, it more to do with getting Dugan to fill in for JMorris for the blues. If he stayed fit, may have been a different story.

I dont think many coaches would take the option of weakening a key position like fullback just to strengthen a centre, particularly when we have reasonable backup centres ready to go.

It's always going to be biased no matter which side you look at it - that's the nature of this discussion. For example, you suggest Mata as right centre option - where although in the games he has played he has been OK, he has been far from dangerous - I don't think he adds anything really in attack - nor does Charly. You also say that Charly is a good ball runner, can set up outside players and future planning - Quinlan provides 2 out of those 3 as well. What he lacks in ball running he more than makes up for with his support play and ball playing skills. As I said, I believe the spread of skills by putting Dugan in centre and Quinlan in fullback far outweighs keeping Dugan at fullback and bringing in Charly or Mata into centre. Especially based on the way the team had been performing up until the changes. It's not always about replacing a like for a like.

And the reason I think he has partly made the changes to benefit our chance of making the 8 was based on the fact that he has retained Dugan in the centres. If it was solely for origin, why not drop him from this weekend onwards? I daresay even if he is back in centre for the next game of origin, he will be retained as Dragons centre after that. At least until either Farrell returns or it is quite clear that this move isn't working.

I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything. I was simply putting my thoughts forward and why I think the move is not a bad one.
 

Dezziedc

Juniors
Messages
665
Very bias argument there Dessie. On one hand, you highlight one deficiency of Runciman while ignoring the benefits of having him in the team (good ball runner, can set up outsiders, speed and future planning). On the other hand, you brush over Quinlans deficiencies and dont even mention what we lose by not having Dugan at fullback.

Yes, the current option was a solution to an issue, but its not the only one. When Farrell went down, we could have brought Mata'utia into right centre, where he is quite accomplished and dangerous. Or we could have moved Beale to his natural right side and played Runciman on the left. IMO both of these have less down side than moving Dugan and playing Quinlan, and personally I would have picked Mata'utia as right centre over Farrel at the start of the season...just my opinion.

Apart from that, I struggle believe thay Mary made this change to benefit our chances of making the 8. Rather, it more to do with getting Dugan to fill in for JMorris for the blues. If he stayed fit, may have been a different story.

I dont think many coaches would take the option of weakening a key position like fullback just to strengthen a centre, particularly when we have reasonable backup centres ready to go.

Reading this again the other points you make may have been valid back at the start of the season or when Farrell got injured - and I think they are reasonable options. However that was Price coaching then and we all know what sort of decisions were made then.

But as I said, given the limited time available, my view is that if we are to make the 8, bringing Charly or Mata in at this stage will make it more difficult given the work that needs to be done with the rest of the team.

Although viable options (and they are options), if you were to take this option, you may as well kiss any opportunity you had to make the 8 goodbye. There's just too much work to do with the whole team to get them to a point where it would be viable.

Look at it this way, there are 2 options. Either try to make the 8 this year, or try to build for the future (even though the structure will change again when Farrell returns). I think Mary has chosen the first option.
 

Bongdragon

Juniors
Messages
38
I tend to agree with Dezzie. If there are only 2 options, it would make more sense to try for the top8. IF we do in fact make the eight, that's a sh*t load of confidence that our players can retain for the following year and the time for rebuilding can be formulated off the back of that confidence.
 

watatank

Coach
Messages
14,007
Price has been taking a short term view with his job on the line for the longest time, dont think this is a good approach
 

BennyV

Referee
Messages
22,576
still dont believe it is the strongest team even if we are looking to make the 8, based on what I've seen of the 3 players in questions (Quinlan, Runciman and Mata'utia) both this year and in the last few years, and on the skills of Dugan. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
 

Dezziedc

Juniors
Messages
665
Price has been taking a short term view with his job on the line for the longest time, dont think this is a good approach

I haven't agreed with you lately wata but I do agree that Price always seemed to take a short term view - it was part of the reason that ultimately cost him his job.

With the coaching position still in limbo and not sure what will happen with the team after this year, Mary is possibly looking at it from an "all in" approach. He has nothing to lose - his job isn't on the line because as far as we know, this will just be a fill in for him. His best chance of getting the job long term is pull a miracle out of his arse and get this team to the 8. Why try to build for the future when he doesn't know who is taking over or even whether he is going to be there at the end of the season once a coach is appointed?

Based on another thread it seems a decision has been made on our future coach anyway.
 

Bongdragon

Juniors
Messages
38
There is still the Brett Morris returning to Round 21 factor! If we at least keep Duges at Centre and give Quinlan some time at Fullback, when BMoz returns, this is quite a lethal back line...
 

watatank

Coach
Messages
14,007
I haven't agreed with you lately wata but I do agree that Price always seemed to take a short term view - it was part of the reason that ultimately cost him his job.

With the coaching position still in limbo and not sure what will happen with the team after this year, Mary is possibly looking at it from an "all in" approach. He has nothing to lose - his job isn't on the line because as far as we know, this will just be a fill in for him. His best chance of getting the job long term is pull a miracle out of his arse and get this team to the 8. Why try to build for the future when he doesn't know who is taking over or even whether he is going to be there at the end of the season once a coach is appointed?

Based on another thread it seems a decision has been made on our future coach anyway.

He has been quoted as saying that he wanted to continue what Price started. He's probably full of it and probably didn't want to come across as the bad guy, but that's what he said. (link)

"That is why I am standing here right now, because I didn't want to see someone else come and undo the work that has been done. We are not finished. I wish he was right here next to me.''
 

smi962

First Grade
Messages
5,703
He has been quoted as saying that he wanted to continue what Price started. He's probably full of it and probably didn't want to come across as the bad guy, but that's what he said. (link)

"That is why I am standing here right now, because I didn't want to see someone else come and undo the work that has been done. We are not finished. I wish he was right here next to me.''

I wish he was right here next to me as my assistant and fetching my water bottle
 
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