Eliesa Katoa

[Penrose Warrior]

But if nobody saw them suffer the head injury, surely it’s on them to make the medics aware?
Having a bang to the head and a concussion doesn’t stop you being able to say ‘yeah we just banged heads and it’s rattled me’… rather than ‘I’m sweet bro, just a stinger in my shoulder’…. They’re not incapable of communicating - infact quite the opposite, evidence shows they’ve still got the wherewithal to try and hide the fact they’ve had a head knock.

I'm not saying that’s what happened here - but the number 1 fix for dealing with concussions properly and as safe as possible is for the players to be honest when they’ve hit their head, 1 about the fact it’s happened and 2 if they’re rattled or not.

Cmon man...you are talking about a head injury, where the player may not even remember or be aware of how strong the force is. And you're talking about young players, who just want to play footy. You might get the odd one who is honest about it but let's be realistic - the consistency of self reporting of a head injury will be almost non-existent. That is not the No.1 fix. Someone cops a head knock in a GF or a final, or in fact any game, and you think there will be any consistency about them owning up to it?

To be fair to you, it's not nearly as bad as the bloke who said SKY TV were to blame

 

[Chimp]

Cmon man...you are talking about a head injury, where the player may not even remember or be aware of how strong the force is. And you're talking about young players, who just want to play footy. You might get the odd one who is honest about it but let's be realistic - the consistency of self reporting of a head injury will be almost non-existent. That is not the No.1 fix. Someone cops a head knock in a GF or a final, or in fact any game, and you think there will be any consistency about them owning up to it?

To be fair to you, it's not nearly as bad as the bloke who said SKY TV were to blame

The players will nearly always try and cover it up, which is why there has to be independence.
But if the trainer genuinely didn’t see it (and as I’ve said multiple times, I think that’s BS), and the player says he’s sweet and there’s been no head contact, and he then goes on to pass a HIA shortly later, then all I’m saying is that there’s enough wiggle room for a defence.

 

[Chimp]

Cmon man...you are talking about a head injury, where the player may not even remember or be aware of how strong the force is.

Oh and on this point, they can’t remember how strong the force was, but they can remember to say it’s not their head, it’s their shoulder…. Come on - the players also have a responsibility, that’s all I'm saying.

Trainers/Medics will sometimes miss things, will sometimes make a bad interpretation - the 1 person who does know if their head has been scrambled is the player themselves.

 

[Canard]

Oh and on this point, they can’t remember how strong the force was, but they can remember to say it’s not their head, it’s their shoulder…. Come on - the players also have a responsibility, that’s all I'm saying.

Trainers/Medics will sometimes miss things, will sometimes make a bad interpretation - the 1 person who does know if their head has been scrambled is the player themselves.

This might be the shittest take in LU history.

 

[Canard]

Does anyone actually believe the incident was "missed"?

 

[Chins]

Does anyone actually believe the incident was "missed"?

Maybe only Katoa himself at the time

 

[moffla]

Some smooth brain comments in here. Christ

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

This might be the shittest take in LU history.

I dont think its that bad a take tbh. All he's saying is:

Players have a responsibility - that's not wrong is it? Maybe a little brutal in this context, but players do have a responsibility to look after themselves too. Not sole responsibility, but there is some element of looking after yourself.

Things sometimes get missed - that's not wrong either, as much as we all think its highly unlikely in this situation. It's a medics job to not miss things obviously but it still happens in the real world, and sport is no exception. Ignorance still isn't an excuse so that probably won't be enough to prevent a sanction, but that doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen.

 

[Maximus]

Because they just suffered a head injury?

You have to be trolling yeah?

I'm assuming he must have suffered a few too many concussions himself.

 

[Canard]

I dont think its that bad a take tbh. All he's saying is:

Players have a responsibility - that's not wrong is it? Maybe a little brutal in this context, but players do have a responsibility to look after themselves too. Not sole responsibility, but there is some element of looking after yourself.

Things sometimes get missed - that's not wrong either, as much as we all think its highly unlikely in this situation. It's a medics job to not miss things obviously but it still happens in the real world, and sport is no exception. Ignorance still isn't an excuse so that probably won't be enough to prevent a sanction, but that doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen.

So you think someone who is likely concussed and not of sound mind, should be held "responsible" for diagnosing there medical condition?

Its a very poorly thought out idea.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

So you think someone who is likely concussed and not of sound mind, should be held "responsible" for diagnosing there medical condition?

Its a very poorly thought out idea.

Not in a procedural sense, of course not. Simply looking out for themselves as well as relying on others to look out for them. Pretty sure players have stood themselves down for not feeling right before.

 

[Canard]

Not in a procedural sense, of course not. Simply looking out for themselves as well as relying on others to look out for them. Pretty sure players have stood themselves down for not feeling right before.

Any player that voluntarily stands themselves down, should be commended and nobody here has issues with it.

That is not the same as expecting players to make a call on their wellbeing in the heat of the moment, whilst likely concussed.

Its a completely unreasonable position to take, and would be legally dubious at best.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

That is not the same as expecting players to make a call on their wellbeing in the heat of the moment, whilst likely concussed.

Its a completely unreasonable position to take, and would be legally dubious at best.

No, and implying that wasn't my intention, especially in Katoa's situation.

My stance is in the general context of players having some (not sole, as I said before) responsibility in looking after themselves. Not a procedural obligation, but a general responsibility. I don't think that expectation is unreasonable.

 

[Canard]

No, and implying that wasn't my intention, especially in Katoa's situation.

My stance is in the general context of players having some (not sole, as I said before) responsibility in looking after themselves. Not a procedural obligation, but a general responsibility. I don't think that expectation is unreasonable.

So are you no longer saying that Katoa had a responsibility to tell the trainer he was concussed?

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

So are you no longer saying that Katoa had a responsibility to tell the trainer he was concussed?

I never at any stage said he did. I said “players do have a responsibility to look after themselves too”

And if that implied I thought Katoa specifically should’ve said something, then again as I later said, that wasn't the intention.

 

[Chimp]

So are you no longer saying that Katoa had a responsibility to tell the trainer he was concussed?

Not that he was concussed, but that he’d taken a head knock - yes. And players need to be truthful about how they’re feeling in that moment (head hurts, can’t see quite properly, seeing stars etc).
How can you say there’s no responsibility on the player? Being concussed doesn’t mean you suddenly lose all cognitive ability. After all, they often retain their ability to quickly think in the moment of how to try and hide the fact they’ve had a head knock (eg rubbing neck/shoulder). The speed of the game means there are even incidents in games where we don’t notice there’s been a head knock immediately, and they get picked up by the independent doctor a few minutes later - so independent doctors missing it can and does happen - and could have happened in the warm up. The 1 person who definitely knew there’d been a head knock was Katoa himself.
Nobody (that I can tell) is saying that the responsibility is solely on the player, and nobody is even saying that the trainers didn’t see the incident (just that it’s possible they didn’t). Why is it so hard to comprehend that players should be honest about what’s just happened and how they’re feeling.

 

[Canard]

Not that he was concussed, but that he’d taken a head knock - yes. And players need to be truthful about how they’re feeling in that moment (head hurts, can’t see quite properly, seeing stars etc).
How can you say there’s no responsibility on the player? Being concussed doesn’t mean you suddenly lose all cognitive ability. After all, they often retain their ability to quickly think in the moment of how to try and hide the fact they’ve had a head knock (eg rubbing neck/shoulder). The speed of the game means there are even incidents in games where we don’t notice there’s been a head knock immediately, and they get picked up by the independent doctor a few minutes later - so independent doctors missing it can and does happen - and could have happened in the warm up. The 1 person who definitely knew there’d been a head knock was Katoa himself.
Nobody (that I can tell) is saying that the responsibility is solely on the player, and nobody is even saying that the trainers didn’t see the incident (just that it’s possible they didn’t). Why is it so hard to comprehend that players should be honest about what’s just happened and how they’re feeling.

Expecting a concussed player to be able to make rational decisions is not realistic, and would be downright legal negligence.

 

[Chimp]

Expecting a concussed player to be able to make rational decisions is not realistic, and would be downright legal negligence.

You saying they are incapable of knowing they’ve had a head knock and should get seen to?
Bht they are capable of knowing they’ve had a head knock, and feigning injury to a different body part to try and hide the fact they’ve stayed down because their head hurts!

 

[Canard]

You saying they are incapable of knowing they’ve had a head knock and should get seen to?
Bht they are capable of knowing they’ve had a head knock, and feigning injury to a different body part to try and hide the fact they’ve stayed down because their head hurts!

How often does this occur? 2/3rds of f**k all.

Very much blaming players here. And even if they're doing such a thing, it's doesn't change one iota an employers duty of care.

 

[Chimp]

I’m not blaming the players, for some reason you’ve got fixated on that. I am however saying players have a responsibility to be honest too - their natural instinct is going to be to hide the fact they’re hurt, but that’s not good for their long term health and directly contradicts all the independent measures the NRL have put in place.
Everyone has a role to play.
Separately though, in this case, he passed his HIA in the first half, so from a procedural perspective, that would suggest he wasn’t concussed. (Though I don’t believe that for a minute).