Firman on the market?

[sydraider]

Firman- no thanks
J.Williams- no thanks

We have the talent coming through ie carney,campese,zillman,dobson.

Why would we want to grab two halfbacks who will end up fringe first graders at best?

J Williams has been in reggies for quite a while now at SOUTHS and the guy who has taken his spot Mick moran isnt much to write home about.

Firman may never recapture the form he displayed in his rookie year, still even if it was possible he could, I still wouldnt want him at the raiders.

I would prefer the club to concentrate on nabbing a couple more forwards for next year, we would be flogging a dead horse getting firman or williams at the club.

 

[Chachi]

If Carney, Campese and Zillman reach their "potential" they'll form the foundation of a great new era for the Raiders come 2007. BUT given that we also currently have Withers, Woolford and Smith (hopefully for another year) at the club I don't understand what the big push is to get these guys in First Grade on a permanent basis - or recruit other halves for that matter. I'll leave that BS for South Sydney thanks.

FFS, Carney and Zillman are still under 20 - they don't need to set the world on fire in Firsts yet - nor do they need to be persisted with in First Grade when out of form. IMO Carney will come back better for the experience, but if Smith re-signs for next year I'd reasonably expect Todd won't get the chance to play firsts on a regular basis untill 2007 (unless Withers, Woolford, Smith and probably Campese all get injured, suspended or fall horribly out of form at the same time). This has nothing to do with Carney's undoubted ability, but more to do with the fact that we've got guys at 6, 7 and 9 who have proven their quality and IMO have done a pretty good job thus far.

Having said that, if Carney gets another chance at Firsts and tears it up, like I know he can, I'll gladly eat my words.

 

[Raider Ultra]

Exactly, Carney is 19, and has only been playing in reserve grade for a yaer.

 

[twistedbydesign]

How many blokes bagging Carney watch him on a weekly basis?

The only thing I can gather is people have made an assessment of him as a footballer when he has (from my recollection) started 2 games. 1 against the Knights where the side was as depleted with injuries worse than I have ever seen and the 2nd against the Tigers where no Raiders turned up to play. Besides that, Elliott makes him come off the bench with 20 minutes to go and people expect him to produce magic. The only time he came off the bench and was given some decent minutes was last year at Gosford against the Dogs. Go back and look at the tape, he controlled periods of that match against the eventual premiers and even at the death came within a whisker of snatching victory for his side with a wonderful cross kick.

If people want to bag his development, get stuck into Elliott. It is all well and good to say that Tim Smith and Soward seem to be better but their coach's have trusted their ability. Carney is the NSW U19's Halfback as well as the Junior Kangaroos Halfback, so obviously he has something.

the thing with Carney is that in his last couple of games in firsts (Knights and Tigers) he has not only played poorly but looked very tentative. I'm not sure why this is, it may be because Elliot hasn't enough confidence in him as you say, but to me he doesn't seem ready to make the jump just yet. In my opinion he needs some more time in reserves, but I can understand your school of thought that a bit of time in first grade and a bit of luck going his way may be all it takes to kickstart his career.

Regardless of this no one should be too harsh on the kid or even begin to write him off. Remember how good Macca was at 18, and then how frustratingly slow his development was from that point on? It's obvious Carney has got something, so if we have to wait a couple of years longer for him to develop so be it.

 

[Wobbygong]

He had one good season in 2003 at the Dragons, other than that he's been a consistent disappointment.

 

[woodgers]

But Smith isn't there this weekend, that is one of my points. Even when there is a vacancy he still doesn't get chosen (not to take anything away from Campo who played quite well in Gosford).

Hypothetical: You are Carney who is playing well and guiding your PL side around the park very nicely. Your name is being mentioned left, right and centre so you prepare yourself to make the step up. Instead, the coach constantly picks Brad Drew who is stinking the joint up, Bulgarelli, Gafa or Croker at 5/8. You can't even crack it for a bench spot when you know that you have more talent in your little toe than Robbo. Surely you are going to crack the sh*ts shortly, when your contract talks come up are you going to play for that coach and club or look elsewhere? Please see Michael Monaghan for the right answer. Sure Todd's contract is for another 3 years after this one, but Woolford has decided to play on for another year meaning that 3 out of those 5 years you signed on for are spent languishing in PL. Meanwhile the guys you guide around the park in Junior Kangaroos are established in first grade. It is not right at all. If Elliott wants to guide him in then they should have done the best thing by the team and moved Withers to Hooker - playing Carney and Campo next to Smith in 06. Instead, even if Woolford is out Elliott doesn't do that, he puts Tongue at hooker who slows us down in the ruck. How is he guiding him in? Soward must have some smart advisors if you ask me.

 

[Raider_69]

But Smith isn't there this weekend, that is one of my points. Even when there is a vacancy he still doesn't get chosen (not to take anything away from Campo who played quite well in Gosford).

Hypothetical: You are Carney who is playing well and guiding your PL side around the park very nicely. Your name is being mentioned left, right and centre so you prepare yourself to make the step up. Instead, the coach constantly picks Brad Drew who is stinking the joint up, Bulgarelli, Gafa or Croker at 5/8. You can't even crack it for a bench spot when you know that you have more talent in your little toe than Robbo. Surely you are going to crack the sh*ts shortly, when your contract talks come up are you going to play for that coach and club or look elsewhere? Please see Michael Monaghan for the right answer. Sure Todd's contract is for another 3 years after this one, but Woolford has decided to play on for another year meaning that 3 out of those 5 years you signed on for are spent languishing in PL. Meanwhile the guys you guide around the park in Junior Kangaroos are established in first grade. It is not right at all. If Elliott wants to guide him in then they should have done the best thing by the team and moved Withers to Hooker - playing Carney and Campo next to Smith in 06. Instead, even if Woolford is out Elliott doesn't do that, he puts Tongue at hooker who slows us down in the ruck. How is he guiding him in? Soward must have some smart advisors if you ask me.

well said

 

[ausraider]

But Smith isn't there this weekend, that is one of my points. Even when there is a vacancy he still doesn't get chosen (not to take anything away from Campo who played quite well in Gosford).

Hypothetical: You are Carney who is playing well and guiding your PL side around the park very nicely. Your name is being mentioned left, right and centre so you prepare yourself to make the step up. Instead, the coach constantly picks Brad Drew who is stinking the joint up, Bulgarelli, Gafa or Croker at 5/8. You can't even crack it for a bench spot when you know that you have more talent in your little toe than Robbo. Surely you are going to crack the sh*ts shortly, when your contract talks come up are you going to play for that coach and club or look elsewhere? Please see Michael Monaghan for the right answer. Sure Todd's contract is for another 3 years after this one, but Woolford has decided to play on for another year meaning that 3 out of those 5 years you signed on for are spent languishing in PL. Meanwhile the guys you guide around the park in Junior Kangaroos are established in first grade. It is not right at all. If Elliott wants to guide him in then they should have done the best thing by the team and moved Withers to Hooker - playing Carney and Campo next to Smith in 06. Instead, even if Woolford is out Elliott doesn't do that, he puts Tongue at hooker who slows us down in the ruck. How is he guiding him in? Soward must have some smart advisors if you ask me.

Spot on We surely know that there are playerswho we call coach killers like Tired Smith but we have a coach who is a player killer.Tim Smith and Soward came from nowhere and are getting better, we have Australian Junior Kangaroo who is struggling to make the first because of a coach who likes Robbo.

 

[Edwahu]

Withers should come under a bit of pressure just based on his form, regardless of Carney or Campeses. Withers has been woeful the last month.

 

[azza]

From what I have seen of PL Carney, I think he is a very good organisational half. I believe that Elliott's "easing in" policy for Carney as far as his first grade appearances go has had, if anything, the opposite effect to what was intended - it has dented his confidence - every time he came on the field he immediately had people watching him expecting him to do something brilliant, and opposition forwards immediately began running at him. On top of that, he had to adjust to the pace of an already "established" match. Elliott never used this 20 mins per game policy with Campese and I sure as heck hope he doesn't use it with Zillman.

 

[Chachi]

Has anyone here got an explanation on how Elliott managed to not single handedly kill Chalk's or Khalers career by bringing them into Firsts? You can't make assessments like a coach being a "player killer" in isolation.

I certainly don't agree with all of Elliotts coaching decisions and he has openly admitted stuffing it up with Drew and Bulgarelli. I just don't agree with the criticism regarding the Carney situation. I for one don't want to see another Brett Finch scenario and if this kid gets rushed into first grade before he's ready and with this weight of expectation I can see it all happening again - and that would piss me off way more than having to wait another year to see him play FG.

 

[ausraider]

Has anyone here got an explanation on how Elliott managed to not single handedly kill Chalk's or Khalers career by bringing them into Firsts? You can't make assessments like a coach being a "player killer" in isolation.

I certainly don't agree with all of Elliotts coaching decisions and he has openly admitted stuffing it up with Drew and Bulgarelli. I just don't agree with the criticism regarding the Carney situation. I for one don't want to see another Brett Finch scenario and if this kid gets rushed into first grade before he's ready and with this weight of expectation I can see it all happening again - and that would piss me off way more than having to wait another year to see him play FG.

Chachi
By bringing a player into FG when he is running riot in PL how is any coach going to stuff that.Players confidence is high coach is showing confidence in him what can really go wrong, apart from the player himself stuffing up.At leat this way we know that even though he world beater in PL he is not ready for FG.But naming the in FG starting line up than tell him to warm the bench for 70 min how in the world is that blooding in form player is beyond me.That is not showing confidence in player that 's what I call demoralising, and thats exactly what I think has happened in this case.A good in form player battered by the coach now I hope he would be able to handle this and come back bigger and better.Lets all hope.

 

[greeneyed]

Chalk is 24! And even then Elliott tried to leave him out of first grade at the start of the season and has FORCED him to pick him in the side by his form.....

Elliott has shown repeatedly he has no idea how to coach halves. Remember the old story from Mark McLinden. Matt Johns comes to coach the halves for one session. They all say..... "He is fantastic! He told us where to stand... what to do.... how to pass..." It is disgraceful that there was no one in the club who could do that.

Hopefully Jason Smith is able to tell them now, but we all know, it won't be Elliott.

I agree totally with Woodgers and Azza. Elliott has shown no capability whatsoever of bringing young players through. He has no idea how to coach the halves. He can't even pick a team! We have fantastic talent coming through in Carney and Zillman... they have the potential to be "Raiders greats". Campese is also excellent first grade material. I just hope that our coaching staff don't completely stuff up their careers. All you people judging Carney on a few first grade appearances have no idea..... get out and watch these young players on a week to week basis. When you do, I will listen to your opinions on them.

And, I just hope the rumours about Elliott being extended are just that. Rumours.

 

[Stuart]

When does Elliot's contract expire?

 

[ausraider]

Any likely replacement names.

 

[thickos]

When does Elliot's contract expire?

End of next season I believe.

 

[Chachi]

Well, if the board is going to stick with Elliott, maybe the answer is to get a specialist halves/backs assistant coach (like Daley at StG) to replace Matterson? I like Elliott in many ways as a coach (beats the **** out of Mal), but I can also see his deficiencies. I don't understand the Gafa, Drew or Tyran thing, nor do I think Mogg should be there ahead of giving a guy like Ale a go. At the end of the day though I think this years comp is showing that in-form halves are more important than ever...that is why Souths are going over the top to get Orford/Anasta.

I also think that it's rough that he gets sh*tcanned for bringing a guy like Smith back to the NRL and then when Smith starts killing it everyone's happy again until he gets injured and we go back to 2004. It's like Johns at Newcastle or BK at Manly - I just don't think there's a single coach who makes or breaks these players.

 

[thickos]

It's a frustrating one for sure, after 4 losses and a bye we're all badly success-starved and we want answers. Sounds a bit defeatist but 6-6 is probably pretty apt for a team like ours, but starting the year 6-2 maybe we got ahead of ourselves too much.

I like Elliott as a coach, he brings a fair bit to the table and has got a good crop of youngsters coming through, and he has taken us to the finals each season of his tenure - but it really is time for the club to go to the next level. I'm sick of struggling at the bottom of the eight and with no idea in attack. This club deserves more. I'm not saying it is Elliott's fault - it's a combination of a lot of things, stemming back to bad management when Mal and News were around. But I'm getting impatient, as we all are.