France to host NZ in 2018 + Six Nations?

[Pommy]

Well we might as well if we wanna be consistent with your attitude of not bothering to play anyone beneath us.

Although that isn’t my attitude you hav just made it up. I simply don’t believe a euro 6 nations with a full England side is something that has much merit.
That doesn’t mean I don’t want to see England ever play a tier 2 nation, but you just keep making your own narrative up.

 

[DC80]

FFS, I love when poms whinge about Australia's contempt for the international game but then they are apparently too good to play the Tier 2 teams. You only give a shit about yourselves (not true for everyone of course).

You are right to point out the hypocrisy.

There shouldn't be any criticism of the Australia's policy towards RL internationals, similarly we (England) shouldn't be criticised for not playing against tier two teams as it stands. Both countries would embrace an international scene, the issue is the lack of one. There's only so many times we can expect NZ or Aus to play over here.

England knights reserve team playing Ireland, Scotland and co. would generate the same interest that games between Euro teams currently generate, none. However I understand why we would be reluctant to put out a full strength England team to play against them also. Although the beatings would be huge, the main issue is there is no evidence to suggest the profile of the game would be raised any higher. Scotland and Ireland would be made up almost entirely of other Englishmen - or some antipodeans - and wouldn't be given any media interest as is the case with these teams in the RLWC. If you can't generate any interest in Scotland, Ireland, minimal in Wales and France, for a RLWC, then why would a RL six nations do it?

Going back to the main issue which is the lack of an international game, it's not something that is addressed by having teams made up of Englishmen taking on other Englishmen. One reason the game in Australia is much healthier than in England is better decisions are made in Australia. A case in point is the recent talk of an NRL team in Perth. The Aussie RL chief dismissed it as not being financially viable at this point, and instead focused on development of the sport at grass roots level in Perth which in time will make having a professional team there viable, a bottom up strategy. In England it's been a top down strategy. RL teams inserted in places where there is no grass roots for the game to take hold, Paris, London etc. Very costly endeavours. With this proposed RL six nations it's the same top down approach. There's little or no interest in the sport in Scotland and Ireland, very little in France and minimal in Wales. An Aussie strategy over here would be to try to do what they are doing in Perth, establish grass roots first in these places, then think about having a team play games, both club and internationals. The sport in England is run very badly with amateurish decisions made, and, as I said, costly ones.

 

[Springs09]

You are right to point out the hypocrisy.

There shouldn't be any criticism of the Australia's policy towards RL internationals, similarly we (England) shouldn't be criticised for not playing against tier two teams as it stands. Both countries would embrace an international scene, the issue is the lack of one. There's only so many times we can expect NZ or Aus to play over here.

England knights reserve team playing Ireland, Scotland and co. would generate the same interest that games between Euro teams currently generate, none. However I understand why we would be reluctant to put out a full strength England team to play against them also. Although the beatings would be huge, the main issue is there is no evidence to suggest the profile of the game would be raised any higher. Scotland and Ireland would be made up almost entirely of other Englishmen - or some antipodeans - and wouldn't be given any media interest as is the case with these teams in the RLWC. If you can't generate any interest in Scotland, Ireland, minimal in Wales and France, for a RLWC, then why would a RL six nations do it?

Going back to the main issue which is the lack of an international game, it's not something that is addressed by having teams made up of Englishmen taking on other Englishmen. One reason the game in Australia is much healthier than in England is better decisions are made in Australia. A case in point is the recent talk of an NRL team in Perth. The Aussie RL chief dismissed it as not being financially viable at this point, and instead focused on development of the sport at grass roots level in Perth which in time will make having a professional team there viable, a bottom up strategy. In England it's been a top down strategy. RL teams inserted in places where there is no grass roots for the game to take hold, Paris, London etc. Very costly endeavours. With this proposed RL six nations it's the same top down approach. There's little or no interest in the sport in Scotland and Ireland, very little in France and minimal in Wales. An Aussie strategy over here would be to try to do what they are doing in Perth, establish grass roots first in these places, then think about having a team play games, both club and internationals. The sport in England is run very badly with amateurish decisions made, and, as I said, costly ones.

I don't know how much you know about Aussie RL but that is very rarely how we do business. Our decisions are mostly shit. The reason the game is healthier is because we have the lion's share of support in NSW and QLD. If we were the 4th sport or whatever like in England, the Super League War would have killed us off. The last 2 expansion teams were Melbourne, a top-down approach, and the Gold Coast which hasn't really worked, just like the last 3 teams that were there. There's nothing to say that Perth wouldn't go at least as good as the Gold Coast, as they have better RL roots than Melbourne did and good support for both club games and tests that have been played there. The reason we aren't expanding is because the NRL is broke and reliant on the whims of broadcasters, which means no chance of expansion until at least the next broadcast deal and only then if the broadcasters want it.

And I disagree, I'd say Ireland v England in Dublin with a good crowd would create more media interest than there ever has been in Ireland. If it doesn't, then at least we could have a well-attended game in Ireland with a possible full-strength Irish team outside a World Cup for the first time ever. That alone is enough reason to do it. After every World Cup we always talk about how we need more games for Tier 2s, and then the year after it's 'nah, not good enough yet, we'll just smash em' and then it's the same the next WC and the next. When's it gonna happen? The game in Ireland is not just gonna spring up on it's own and suddenly be on the back page. Internationals are the way to generate the interest.

And there should be plenty of criticism towards both Australia and England, and NZ for that matter. There is plenty of opportunity for an international scene now

 

[Springs09]

Although that isn’t my attitude you hav just made it up. I simply don’t believe a euro 6 nations with a full England side is something that has much merit.
That doesn’t mean I don’t want to see England ever play a tier 2 nation, but you just keep making your own narrative up.

It's been your attitude the whole damn time. 'What's the point of us playing Ireland and Italy, we're just gonna smash them anyway'

What's the difference between England playing Ireland and Italy in warm-up tests and playing them in a Six Nations? Other than it gives the competition legitimacy, more exposure and full-strength Tier 2 sides?

 

[Pommy]

It's been your attitude the whole damn time. 'What's the point of us playing Ireland and Italy, we're just gonna smash them anyway'

What's the difference between England playing Ireland and Italy in warm-up tests and playing them in a Six Nations? Other than it gives the competition legitimacy, more exposure and full-strength Tier 2 sides?

So england playing in a tournament as a warm up gives it legitimacy? Think about it, you can hear people talking now ‘6 nations are a joke england are using it as a warm up for the kiwis’ My attitude is about having more meaningful games and my belief is in this format a knights side would be better for that.

 

[Springs09]

So england playing in a tournament as a warm up gives it legitimacy? Think about it, you can hear people talking now ‘6 nations are a joke england are using it as a warm up for the kiwis’ My attitude is about having more meaningful games and my belief is in this format a knights side would be better for that.

Then those people are idiots. You don't not do something because people might talk shit. Otherwise we wouldn't have a World Cup. England can play in the tournament for the tournament, as well as growing the game and giving Tier 2 sides a first-class comp and not a reserve grade comp. If you lot treat it as a warm-up for NZ then you are just being negative for the sake of it.

That attitude is the same as us saying that Australia A would be better off playing England next year when you tour.

 

[Pommy]

Then those people are idiots. You don't not do something because people might talk shit. Otherwise we wouldn't have a World Cup. England can play in the tournament for the tournament, as well as growing the game and giving Tier 2 sides a first-class comp and not a reserve grade comp. If you lot treat it as a warm-up for NZ then you are just being negative for the sake of it.

That attitude is the same as us saying that Australia A would be better off playing England next year when you tour.

Well it’s not really the same even if you keep trying to say that. Australia pretty much already have that attitude with he PM 13 and not playing games regular.

 

[Springs09]

Well it’s not really the same even if you keep trying to say that. Australia pretty much already have that attitude with he PM 13 and not playing games regular.

Yeah, it is the same. You don't see what England playing the Tier 2s would do for you or them because you'd win and would prefer the Knights play. If we had that attitude, well what does beating England 3 times do? You lost to a Tier 2 team 4 years ago, we haven't lost to you for 22 years. Or 11 if you count Great Britain. You can just play our reserve side, you might win then.

Our attitude is shit, I admit it. But so is Englands if your administrators think like you guys do.

 

[Pommy]

Yeah, it is the same. You don't see what England playing the Tier 2s would do for you or them because you'd win and would prefer the Knights play. If we had that attitude, well what does beating England 3 times do? You lost to a Tier 2 team 4 years ago, we haven't lost to you for 22 years. Or 11 if you count Great Britain. You can just play our reserve side, you might win then.

Our attitude is shit, I admit it. But so is Englands if your administrators think like you guys do.

But I’m not saying we shouldn’t play tier 2 sides you’re just to dense to accept that.
I just don’t think a full england side in a 6 nations makes for a very interesting, entertaining or worthwhile competition.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t play tier 2 sides.
I would be very interested in playing a tier 2 mid season instead of a 4th NZ game, unfortunately the chance of RL playing a game in the US outweighs any positives for us playing France/Ireland. Hopefully in 2019 we play one of them during origin.

 

[DC80]

I don't know how much you know about Aussie RL but that is very rarely how we do business. Our decisions are mostly shit. The reason the game is healthier is because we have the lion's share of support in NSW and QLD. If we were the 4th sport or whatever like in England, the Super League War would have killed us off. The last 2 expansion teams were Melbourne, a top-down approach, and the Gold Coast which hasn't really worked, just like the last 3 teams that were there. There's nothing to say that Perth wouldn't go at least as good as the Gold Coast, as they have better RL roots than Melbourne did and good support for both club games and tests that have been played there. The reason we aren't expanding is because the NRL is broke and reliant on the whims of broadcasters, which means no chance of expansion until at least the next broadcast deal and only then if the broadcasters want it.

And I disagree, I'd say Ireland v England in Dublin with a good crowd would create more media interest than there ever has been in Ireland. If it doesn't, then at least we could have a well-attended game in Ireland with a possible full-strength Irish team outside a World Cup for the first time ever. That alone is enough reason to do it. After every World Cup we always talk about how we need more games for Tier 2s, and then the year after it's 'nah, not good enough yet, we'll just smash em' and then it's the same the next WC and the next. When's it gonna happen? The game in Ireland is not just gonna spring up on it's own and suddenly be on the back page. Internationals are the way to generate the interest.

And there should be plenty of criticism towards both Australia and England, and NZ for that matter. There is plenty of opportunity for an international scene now

So the Aussie bloke was bluffing then when he said Perth isn't viable at this point and the truth is the NRL are skint? Fair enough. From the outside it did seem wise what he was saying though. Top down rarely works. There's been an endless series of top down failures over here. All the clubs have folded or have teams playing infront of three figure crowds, London Broncos for example. Toronto is a top down approach but the North American market is very different to here in the UK. Without any pre-existing support or grass roots here the game will not take hold.

On your Ireland comment, what do you base that on? Ireland played Australia in the 2013 RLWC and there was 5k at it. I didn't travel over from England to see it but I know a few that did, and the comment was you wouldn't know that a RLWC game was being played. It didn't get covered in the news media over there either. Ireland vs England is two groups of Englishmen taking on each other, that won't generate interest in Ireland. Also where would you play it? If Ireland at the RLWC doesn't generate interest in Ireland, then what makes you think a game outside that would?

 

[DC80]

It's been your attitude the whole damn time. 'What's the point of us playing Ireland and Italy, we're just gonna smash them anyway'

What's the difference between England playing Ireland and Italy in warm-up tests and playing them in a Six Nations? Other than it gives the competition legitimacy, more exposure and full-strength Tier 2 sides?

I think you are being naive in what you think will generate interest. Us taking on Ireland or Italy, places where the sport has barely any profile or grass roots, won't achieve it. As an Australian would you be interested in seeing a USA baseball team made up of Americans taking on an Australia baseball team made up of Americans? So a sport with little or no profile in Australia and an Australia team made up entirely of another nationality, would you pay money to go see it?

Another thing, never mind lack of media coverage in those other countries what tv station in England would cover games against minnows? BBC 2 only showed RLWC games involving England, none of Ireland, Wales or Scotland were shown as the sport has little or no profile in the others. This is the BBC we are talking about which covers the four countries, yet in RL only one got coverage. The BBC are unlikely to cover a non RLWC game involving England against a team that isn't NZ or Australia. Sky are even less likely to do so. Premier sports is probably the best shot and it's watched by very few, so ultimately there is very little to gain for England playing against these teams right now.

Perhaps as you have seen what has happened in the Pacific islands you are thinking the same will happen here. Tonga, Samoa and the Pacific islands are rugby playing nations. It's an easy sell to them, it's in their culture. A Tonga team made up of New Zealanders will still generate plenty of interest in Tonga, that isn't replicated here. Top down approach will not work here.

 

[Springs09]

So the Aussie bloke was bluffing then when he said Perth isn't viable at this point and the truth is the NRL are skint? Fair enough. From the outside it did seem wise what he was saying though. Top down rarely works. There's been an endless series of top down failures over here. All the clubs have folded or have teams playing infront of three figure crowds, London Broncos for example. Toronto is a top down approach but the North American market is very different to here in the UK. Without any pre-existing support or grass roots here the game will not take hold.

On your Ireland comment, what do you base that on? Ireland played Australia in the 2013 RLWC and there was 5k at it. I didn't travel over from England to see it but I know a few that did, and the comment was you wouldn't know that a RLWC game was being played. It didn't get covered in the news media over there either. Ireland vs England is two groups of Englishmen taking on each other, that won't generate interest in Ireland. Also where would you play it? If Ireland at the RLWC doesn't generate interest in Ireland, then what makes you think a game outside that would?

Todd Greenberg isn't going to say anything that makes the NRL look bad. Perth would not be top-down. There's nothing else that can really be done besides a full expansion team either in the NRL or NSW/QLD Cup. We've had an U18s team there for years, plus good crowds for any games played there. None of the other potential expansion areas (Brisbane 2, Central Coast, NZ 2, Central Queensland, PNG) would be top-down approaches either.

Yeah, Ireland played Australia. I'm saying if Ireland played England it would be the biggest game in Ireland so far because of the travelling English fans. Ireland v England is 2 groups of Englishmen if you choose to see it like that, but that's the same as saying 'NZ v Tonga is 2 groups of NZers playing each other, no one is interested in that'. The situations aren't the same but the argument about heritage is. I was at Ireland v Australia in Limerick. There were merchandise stands selling Union jerseys. The RLWC organisers didn't seem to actually do anything to promote the game.

Ireland v England could potentially generate interest because it could (and should) be the first well-attended game in Ireland. And if we don't try it now, when will we? What is going to create interest other than a first-class international between Ireland and England in front of a good crowd? Should we just give up then? Why not try it?

The game has generated interest in Fiji, Tonga and Samoa through strong national teams. A strong Irish team in Dublin against a full English side in front of a good crowd with the RFL actually doing something to promote it? What better way to generate rugby league in Ireland? Or should we sit around and hope the Irish comp suddenly takes off and becomes professional?

 

[Springs09]

I think you are being naive in what you think will generate interest. Us taking on Ireland or Italy, places where the sport has barely any profile or grass roots, won't achieve it. As an Australian would you be interested in seeing a USA baseball team made up of Americans taking on an Australia baseball team made up of Americans? So a sport with little or no profile in Australia and an Australia team made up entirely of another nationality, would you pay money to go see it?

Another thing, never mind lack of media coverage in those other countries what tv station in England would cover games against minnows? BBC 2 only showed RLWC games involving England, none of Ireland, Wales or Scotland were shown as the sport has little or no profile in the others. This is the BBC we are talking about which covers the four countries, yet in RL only one got coverage. The BBC are unlikely to cover a non RLWC game involving England against a team that isn't NZ or Australia. Sky are even less likely to do so. Premier sports is probably the best shot and it's watched by very few, so ultimately there is very little to gain for England playing against these teams right now.

Perhaps as you have seen what has happened in the Pacific islands you are thinking the same will happen here. Tonga, Samoa and the Pacific islands are rugby playing nations. It's an easy sell to them, it's in their culture. A Tonga team made up of New Zealanders will still generate plenty of interest in Tonga, that isn't replicated here. Top down approach will not work here.

Yes actually, I would. American baseballers playing here? Of course I'd want to go see it.

Okay, so we shouldn't have games against minnows at all now because TV won't cover it.

What is with this? Every day during the World Cup it was 'more games for Tier 2 sides! More games against Tier 1 sides!' Now it's every excuse under the sun to not play against Tier 2 sides and let them go on the way they have been for the last ten years.

You over-estimate the appeal of RL to Pacific Islanders. The RL teams have never appealed to them until this year. RL is largely treated as a joke in NZ.This year was the first time Tonga and Samoa got much interest at all outside of Australia. NZ v Tonga games in the past have been low-profile, untelevised in front of small crowds.

I'm not saying what happened to Tonga will happen to Ireland. But why is that an argument to not hold Ireland v England in Dublin? Irish RL want it, so why not? Are we supposed to wait until the Irish team is fully Irish nationals and competitive with the big 3 before we attempt to hold a big game there?

 

[Stallion]

Yes actually, I would. American baseballers playing here? Of course I'd want to go see it.

Okay, so we shouldn't have games against minnows at all now because TV won't cover it.

What is with this? Every day during the World Cup it was 'more games for Tier 2 sides! More games against Tier 1 sides!' Now it's every excuse under the sun to not play against Tier 2 sides and let them go on the way they have been for the last ten years.

You over-estimate the appeal of RL to Pacific Islanders. The RL teams have never appealed to them until this year. RL is largely treated as a joke in NZ.This year was the first time Tonga and Samoa got much interest at all outside of Australia. NZ v Tonga games in the past have been low-profile, untelevised in front of small crowds.

I'm not saying what happened to Tonga will happen to Ireland. But why is that an argument to not hold Ireland v England in Dublin? Irish RL want it, so why not? Are we supposed to wait until the Irish team is fully Irish nationals and competitive with the big 3 before we attempt to hold a big game there?

Ireland v England should happen. The Irish were very impressive at the world cup and the English were great! It should be a done deal for such a test to happen in Ireland.

 

[Pommy]

Ireland v England should happen. The Irish were very impressive at the world cup and the English were great! It should be a done deal for such a test to happen in Ireland.

You are just ignoring the fact it’s England vs England.
I’m not against it being in Ireland but don’t be so blinkered to assume it will be a success in Ireland as there are no guarantees that it will be. The islands may be happy to watch a load of aussies and kiwis run out for their nation I don’t think that’s automatically going to be the case for the home nations.

 

[Pommy]

Yes actually, I would. American baseballers playing here? Of course I'd want to go see it.

Okay, so we shouldn't have games against minnows at all now because TV won't cover it.

What is with this? Every day during the World Cup it was 'more games for Tier 2 sides! More games against Tier 1 sides!' Now it's every excuse under the sun to not play against Tier 2 sides and let them go on the way they have been for the last ten years.

You over-estimate the appeal of RL to Pacific Islanders. The RL teams have never appealed to them until this year. RL is largely treated as a joke in NZ.This year was the first time Tonga and Samoa got much interest at all outside of Australia. NZ v Tonga games in the past have been low-profile, untelevised in front of small crowds.

I'm not saying what happened to Tonga will happen to Ireland. But why is that an argument to not hold Ireland v England in Dublin? Irish RL want it, so why not? Are we supposed to wait until the Irish team is fully Irish nationals and competitive with the big 3 before we attempt to hold a big game there?

Because it has to be profitable, you want england to play tier 2s which is fine but you can’t really expect them to do it at a loss.
If there’s not TV money there is going to need to be gate money.

 

[Springs09]

Because it has to be profitable, you want england to play tier 2s which is fine but you can’t really expect them to do it at a loss.
If there’s not TV money there is going to need to be gate money.

Then we never do it then, fine.

There can be gate money if the RFL promotes it, especially for travelling English fans as the first opportunity to watch a fully-fledged Ireland v England international in Dublin.

There are no guarantees it will be a success, but there is a guarantee that RL will never be a success in Ireland if we never play there. And if it isn't profitable that's the RFL's fault for not promoting it. We sold out for England v whoever in 2013. We can do it again.

But you want to be as negative as NRL is towards the international game so so be it, the big 3 can just play each other until the next World Cup comes around and everyone can cry about how the Tier 2s never get games.

 

[Pommy]

Then we never do it then, fine.

There can be gate money if the RFL promotes it, especially for travelling English fans as the first opportunity to watch a fully-fledged Ireland v England international in Dublin.

There are no guarantees it will be a success, but there is a guarantee that RL will never be a success in Ireland if we never play there. And if it isn't profitable that's the RFL's fault for not promoting it. We sold out for England v whoever in 2013. We can do it again.

But you want to be as negative as NRL is towards the international game so so be it, the big 3 can just play each other until the next World Cup comes around and everyone can cry about how the Tier 2s never get games.

Again ignoring what I’ve said but that’s just the common theme.

 

[DC80]

Todd Greenberg isn't going to say anything that makes the NRL look bad. Perth would not be top-down. There's nothing else that can really be done besides a full expansion team either in the NRL or NSW/QLD Cup. We've had an U18s team there for years, plus good crowds for any games played there. None of the other potential expansion areas (Brisbane 2, Central Coast, NZ 2, Central Queensland, PNG) would be top-down approaches either.

Yeah, Ireland played Australia. I'm saying if Ireland played England it would be the biggest game in Ireland so far because of the travelling English fans. Ireland v England is 2 groups of Englishmen if you choose to see it like that, but that's the same as saying 'NZ v Tonga is 2 groups of NZers playing each other, no one is interested in that'. The situations aren't the same but the argument about heritage is. I was at Ireland v Australia in Limerick. There were merchandise stands selling Union jerseys. The RLWC organisers didn't seem to actually do anything to promote the game.

Ireland v England could potentially generate interest because it could (and should) be the first well-attended game in Ireland. And if we don't try it now, when will we? What is going to create interest other than a first-class international between Ireland and England in front of a good crowd? Should we just give up then? Why not try it?

The game has generated interest in Fiji, Tonga and Samoa through strong national teams. A strong Irish team in Dublin against a full English side in front of a good crowd with the RFL actually doing something to promote it? What better way to generate rugby league in Ireland? Or should we sit around and hope the Irish comp suddenly takes off and becomes professional?

I've addessed your comment about Tonga - and the Pacific islands - and its attitude towards NZers playing for them, the interest will be high regardless as Tonga is a rugby playing nation, so it's a sport they know. It's also an incredibly tiny place - population 100k - with little else happening so anything Tonga related will be covered there. It's not the same here. As a sport it's largely unheard of in Scotland and Ireland - France too - while there are at least three major high profile team sports played and followed in those countries. In addition to that the Pacific islanders have a strong connection to each other regardless of where they live. There is a clear bond there. That's very different to how the public in Ireland or Scotland view thirteen Englishmen from Lancashire and Yorkshire. The only thing that would generate tangible interest in RL in either country is if there were some actual grassroots of the sport in both. A sport they know, a sport with Irish and Scottish players and want to see play, a sport with any semblance of media interest. That isn't in place in either today. To look at what Ireland and Scotland need to do to generate interest they need to first get to what France have. The French at least has a pro club team, a group of French players, and some fan interest in a part of France. There just isn't the raw materials to play international RL among the home nations here at present to any meaningful level or interest. Putting on internationals with these teams in the hope of growing the sport is like trying to plant seeds on concrete.

So there is a strong foundation in Perth for RL then. Willie Mason stated Perth, quote "couldn't give a shit about Rugby league". Would there be sufficient interest at this point for an NRL team?

 

[Springs09]

Again ignoring what I’ve said but that’s just the common theme.

You said if there's no TV money there needs to be gate money, I said there could be gate money.

I get it, you don't want to grow International RL, you just want what's best for England. Fine.