Has the Squad over performed up to this point of the season ?

[mickeylane]

What about the other AJ is he still coming?

will know by Friday either way....

 

[2010]

I think the team has achieved more then was expected, but I think deep down that the shit will hit the fan.

 

[possm]

Yes we have over performed up to this point of the season. We started the season off as second favourites for the spoon. We have the worst halfback in the comp and a fullback who struggles to pass the ball.

Some say we over-performed this year and yet the same people say we don't need to replace Dugan and Packer, we don't need to recruit players to bolster our week positions, fullback and right centre.

I consider we have under-performed purely because we carried players like McCrone and Aitken for much of the season and were without Dugan and Widdop through injury for a few games. So I'm sure we would be better placed on the ladder if McCrone and Aitken were dropped and if Dugan and Widdop were not injured. Of course if the selection process was better and bench management much better, there is a good chance we would be leading the competition.
Mess

 

[MilanDragon]

Some say we over-performed this year and yet the same people say we don't need to replace Dugan and Packer, we don't need to recruit players to bolster our week positions, fullback and right centre.

I consider we have under-performed purely because we carried players like McCrone and Aitken for much of the season and were without Dugan and Widdop through injury for a few games. So I'm sure we would be better placed on the ladder if McCrone and Aitken were dropped and if Dugan and Widdop were not injured. Of course if the selection process was better and bench management much better, there is a good chance we would be leading the competition.
Mess

Possm, in your opinion it looks like retrospectively we have under-performed.

However what was your prediction at start of season?

Also do you honestly think we have a playing roster/squad that is the best in the comp? I don't think on paper we have a top 4 or even 6 squad. Maybe not even top 8.

 

[Drag Queen]

Some say we over-performed this year and yet the same people say we don't need to replace Dugan and Packer, we don't need to recruit players to bolster our week positions, fullback and right centre.

I consider we have under-performed purely because we carried players like McCrone and Aitken for much of the season and were without Dugan and Widdop through injury for a few games. So I'm sure we would be better placed on the ladder if McCrone and Aitken were dropped and if Dugan and Widdop were not injured. Of course if the selection process was better and bench management much better, there is a good chance we would be leading the competition.
Mess

Love the optimism but I'm not sure about this possm. I also question the selection process but I don't feel our backups offer much more than the current team tbh. The only current player that may make a difference is Nona to replace McCrone. When others are screaming to bring in the juniors whilst quoting other clubs that have done so, I am scepitcal. Cleary, French, Taylor and Turbo Tom etc are freaks. Wish we had some freaks but I can't see any yet.

 

[Drag Queen]

I think the team has achieved more then was expected, but I think deep down that the shit will hit the fan.

I'm feeling pessimistic. Hope I'm proved wrong.

 

[coast_dragons]

Now i know the sleepy one has no clue.

Under performed lol for a team that was considered a bottom 2 squad to be anywhere near the 8 is an achivement in itself.

 

[The Damo]

It's a MESS. Imagine if it wasn't a mess:
Dugan
Macdonald
Aitken
Lafai
Nightingale
Widdop
Hunt
Vaughan
McInnes
Packer
Thompson
Frizell
De Belin

Ah Mau
Kerr
Lawrie
Sims

We could bring Kerr and Lawrie through this year and have the above line up for 2018.

Now with our MESS we will have to play Mann at fullback even though Mary still refuses to select him at 1. - Mann is less than Dugan.

Aitken will need to do a lot of defensive work in the off-season to be a good right centre in 2018. - Aitken on tilt.

We will have to find a run on prop to partner Vaughan and he will have to go through the off-season and first few rounds to settle in. - WHO?

One question- should we have matched the tigers offer for Packer? Yes or no? Not we should have signed him last year, Packer gets to decide when he signs and he would've been an idiot to sign then.

 

[Old Timer]

I have been thinking about this thread and the implications surrounding it.
On one hand people say, well look where we are compared to where we thought we would be, how can you complain.
Others say well if we got here, then why not aim higher and these are the potential areas to enable us to possibly do that, however their is risk involved but we should bother to find out.
Others then say, hell no protect what we have, risk nothing.
Most of us understand all the pro's and con's of the above points and have argued them out ad nausium.
My question now is if we got to where we are and if we then do drop to 7th or eight by season end, how is that some people will not see the back half of the season as an abject failure and instead see it still as an over achievement.
Is there not some point where you scale to a height, stop to applaud it and say "there you go look at us now" that anything less than that must be looked at critically and you say WTF happened how did we end up here because in reality it is a far lesser achievement than that which was boasted about earlier.
Just because we predicted SFA at the beginning of the season doesn't mean to say that having reached lofty heights, that if we fall, that we can then return to the original position, surely we have to be more discerning than that.

 

[possm]

Possm, in your opinion it looks like retrospectively we have under-performed.

However what was your prediction at start of season?

Also do you honestly think we have a playing roster/squad that is the best in the comp? I don't think on paper we have a top 4 or even 6 squad. Maybe not even top 8.

I think we have done better so far this year than what most were predicting. I think we achieved this because of our off-season fitness work which allowed us to play the 'power plan'. So as far as performance against early predictions go, we have over achieved.

However, I believe we have a good squad and with the right coach we would be higher up the ladder right now with a good chance to succeed against the best teams in the competition. So make of this what you will.

 

[possm]

One question- should we have matched the tigers offer for Packer? Yes or no? Not we should have signed him last year, Packer gets to decide when he signs and he would've been an idiot to sign then.

Sorry, that is not really the question but if you insist I'd say No. The real question is, should we have signed Packer in the period 1 Nov 2016 to 31 Jan 2017 and my answer is Yes. During this period Packers price was 500k 550k a huge increase on what he was being paid in 2016. Knowing his importance to the squad Millward should have tied him up quick smart.

At the time mentioned above, Taylor had not been sacked by the Tigers and there was no other Club chasing Packer. Most of our forwards were retained or upgraded during the above mentioned period - except for De Belin who eventually was retained a little while later. Packer stated he wanted to stay and the Dragons stated they wanted him to stay and so he should have been tied up.

 

[Belta]

I don't think they have over performed, instead I think some of our players have played to their potential enabling us thus far to compete each week. Widdop has shown he has the ability to steer the side around and do enough with the kicking game to get us over the line. Our wins have been set up by our forwards finally getting atleast equal field position.

Vaughan and Lafai have both played to their potential, and will have to continue to do so (Lafai to me looks like he is carrying a few injuries) Vaughan will be the most marked forward and will have to rise above that tag.

Personally I don't think the criticisms of Nene are warranted I think he has heavy involvement for a winger, and Dugan has been one of our best since announcing his departure.

Looking forward I believe we have a good side that could compete in the finals ......IF......our backline performs....I am concerned over our backline it seems disjointed mostly due to a lot of reshuffling...it's not just our defence it's our cohesion or more specifically lack of..this is Mary's big test we all have opinions on who should play what position ... So it's over to you Mary...we are in a position to go deep into the finals...or crash and burn..

 

[The Damo]

Sorry, that is not really the question but if you insist I'd say No. The real question is, should we have signed Packer in the period 1 Nov 2016 to 31 Jan 2017 and my answer is Yes. During this period Packers price was 500k 550k a huge increase on what he was being paid in 2016. Knowing his importance to the squad Millward should have tied him up quick smart.

At the time mentioned above, Taylor had not been sacked by the Tigers and there was no other Club chasing Packer. Most of our forwards were retained or upgraded during the above mentioned period - except for De Belin who eventually was retained a little while later. Packer stated he wanted to stay and the Dragons stated they wanted him to stay and so he should have been tied up.

Do you think Packer would've been keen to wait, see if he could get picked for kiwis and improve his value or someone offer him longer contract? The main issue I have with your assertions about recruitment is you don't seem to recognise that players have independent wants and needs from the club. If he didn't want to seriously negotiate till later should we have moved to replace him then? Not knowing the tigers would implode?

 

[Slippery Morris]

If the Dragons were playing like last year and winning then overachieving but they are not. They are playing a totally different style which obviously suits the players more. Saints are not over achieving or underachieving but simply playing to their strengths. If only they had a decent No.7 as that is the only weakness and that is such a crucial position.

Mary has changed the way they play but his extremely cautious selections are still there where he is only selecting McCrone purely on experience and not skill ahead of Mann or anyone else. Sad thing is how will Mann get the experience if he is not given a go. I still don;t think he has been bad and against the Storm really showed up McCrone big time.

 

[MilanDragon]

I have been thinking about this thread and the implications surrounding it.
On one hand people say, well look where we are compared to where we thought we would be, how can you complain.
Others say well if we got here, then why not aim higher and these are the potential areas to enable us to possibly do that, however their is risk involved but we should bother to find out.
Others then say, hell no protect what we have, risk nothing.
Most of us understand all the pro's and con's of the above points and have argued them out ad nausium.
My question now is if we got to where we are and if we then do drop to 7th or eight by season end, how is that some people will not see the back half of the season as an abject failure and instead see it still as an over achievement.
Is there not some point where you scale to a height, stop to applaud it and say "there you go look at us now" that anything less than that must be looked at critically and you say WTF happened how did we end up here because in reality it is a far lesser achievement than that which was boasted about earlier.
Just because we predicted SFA at the beginning of the season doesn't mean to say that having reached lofty heights, that if we fall, that we can then return to the original position, surely we have to be more discerning than that.

Very fair post and well thought out - but I suppose it's all very speculative.

It's like most jobs right. For example I'm given KRA's to achieve for the quarter or half or even financial year. Now ultimately that's what my performance rating and incentives are based on.

In saying that if midway through the performance period I'm 150% to performance my boss will want to keep me at that level rather than ending up on 100% as we have an opportunity to highly exceed expectations. So the idea is to maintain 150%, however ultimately even if I was to drop my performance in the second half and ended up 120% to my KRA then I'd still deserve a bonus/pay rise/ good rating etc.

So whatever goal the board/fans set as expectation at the start of this performance period (this season) is what we have to measure the team on.

 

[possm]

Do you think Packer would've been keen to wait, see if he could get picked for kiwis and improve his value or someone offer him longer contract? The main issue I have with your assertions about recruitment is you don't seem to recognise that players have independent wants and needs from the club. If he didn't want to seriously negotiate till later should we have moved to replace him then? Not knowing the tigers would implode?

Packer's wish to remain at the Dragons was never in dispute. Millward said he wanted to retain him but he wanted to deal with Dugan first. What a stupid thing to do/say. Packer wanted to sign and if Packer thought at that time about NZ selection the upgrade to 500k-550k more than compensated him. Even so, an upgrade to his contract could have been don later in the same way Vaughan's contract was upgraded. Why don't you stop defending Millward? It is clear he stuffed up with Dugan and Packer. and left us with a gap year to progress juniors in even though for 2018, we had a potentially GF winning side.
It can't be seen as anything but a mess.

 

[Dragons4me]

I think we have done better so far this year than what most were predicting. I think we achieved this because of our off-season fitness work which allowed us to play the 'power plan'. So as far as performance against early predictions go, we have over achieved.

However, I believe we have a good squad and with the right coach we would be higher up the ladder right now with a good chance to succeed against the best teams in the competition. So make of this what you will.

I love the "we" and "us" bit here. "We" have done this which has allowed "us" to do that. Sounds like you consider yourself part of the team. We had names for "team players" just like you when I played and your outright dislike of Mary and certain players is legendary. I suppose hiding behind a laptop screen under a false name allows you to be an expert.

 

[The Damo]

Packer's wish to remain at the Dragons was never in dispute. Millward said he wanted to retain him but he wanted to deal with Dugan first. What a stupid thing to do/say. Packer wanted to sign and if Packer thought at that time about NZ selection the upgrade to 500k-550k more than compensated him. Even so, an upgrade to his contract could have been don later in the same way Vaughan's contract was upgraded. Why don't you stop defending Millward? It is clear he stuffed up with Dugan and Packer. and left us with a gap year to progress juniors in even though for 2018, we had a potentially GF winning side.
It can't be seen as anything but a mess.

Nope, not clear. Why did Millard say that? One just as plausible explanation is that they'd had discussions with Packer, he said he thinks he's worth x amount, so millward says we won't know if we can afford that till we've signed others particularly Dugan. Both parties agree to wait.
your scenario assumes Packer didn't think he could improve his worth and the length of a potential contract. I assume he thought he could. If so, he was right, and got a contract that you admit we shouldn't have matched. Give Packer some credit.

 

[Old Timer]

Very fair post and well thought out - but I suppose it's all very speculative.

It's like most jobs right. For example I'm given KRA's to achieve for the quarter or half or even financial year. Now ultimately that's what my performance rating and incentives are based on.

In saying that if midway through the performance period I'm 150% to performance my boss will want to keep me at that level rather than ending up on 100% as we have an opportunity to highly exceed expectations. So the idea is to maintain 150%, however ultimately even if I was to drop my performance in the second half and ended up 120% to my KRA then I'd still deserve a bonus/pay rise/ good rating etc.

So whatever goal the board/fans set as expectation at the start of this performance period (this season) is what we have to measure the team on.

Milan
Good reply and I understand your thought process having reviewed many a budget and many a FYE result.
The understanding of how and why we got to 4th is one thing and the fact we got there is either as a direct result of "us" or "them" but are we as a club intelligent enough in the 1st instance to work that out?
If the answer is "them" then we have not achieved nearly as much as is proclaimed but if it is "us" and a decline comes why did it happen and is it acceptable?
The answer IMO is that we decline because we can't do any better when actually needed at the height of the season ( we have already sown and harvested our crop) and our success comes easily and early whilst everyone else (bar Storm) are sorting things out, not at their best and actually planting their crop for harvesting later in the season.
So we then need to ask the that question why couldn't we lift when needed is it the "roster" or is it the "coach"?
If it is the "roster" then what the hell are we doing dropping 2 internationals with no replacements already in place or if we actually decide to replace from inside (which is OK by me) then where the f**k is the succession programme and why is not already being properly implemented? (Nighty to FB and KFFL to wing what a brain dead succession plan that is)
If as I suspect it is the coach then what the hell were we thinking about when we gave him the extension as he is the overarching limiting factor.
In manufacturing you need to identify the downstream piece of equipment that hampers your overall out put and then you need to upgrade it to get a better outcome.
If its not the coach that is the problem then it is definitely the roster so you have to ask Mr Millward what the f**k are you doing to fix that and how will letting 2 internationals go make life better, especially when your anointed FB says he has a long way to go and in the next breath you say we are not recruiting a FB.
That indicates only 1 thing to me, a 2 year extension for Nighty to play FB and no succession plan at this point in time.
So if we just make top 8 (after being top 4 almost top 2) lose players, sign no one to replace them and don't blood replacements from within how can anyone consider that a successful year?
Answer because we keep comparing it against the shit years we should never have had in the 1st place and when we compare against mediocrity it is always easy to look good.
Hopefully we make top 4 and go deep into the semis and I beg forgiveness but I don't see that happening under current circumstances.

 

[Minh]

we have gone from 100 to 1 in round one to 13 to 1....so yes we have overachieved.