Head clash discussion

[AJH]

Hi all,

Something I've been thinking about over the last couple of days, due to the number of head clashes over the weekend. Is a head clash just a mis-timed tackle, and why is there no penalty for it?

I know accidents happen in rugby league, it's a contact sport etc etc. What I'm thinking about is that most high tackles and dangerous lifting tackles are just mis-timed tackles as well. Players don't generally go out with an intention to injure another player but sometimes it happens. In the case of dangerous tackles (high/lifting) the player may be suspended for it, but in the case of head clashes there's no penalty, when in effect they're all just mis-timed tackles. If a player has a poor tackling style they may lead with their head, just as they may connect with a high tackle or two.

Can anyone see a time when players might be penalised for head clashes?

Just wondering what other peoples opinion on this is. And I don't think it's necessary to go into biases about players who should've been suspended but weren't etc etc.

Cheers
Al

 

[Danish]

Of all the head clashes over the weekend, I would say the only one that really involved any recklessness was Webb's on Hickey.

In fact I'd go as far as to say it was deliberate, knowing the man's rep for foul play. His was the only one which hit front on with the top of his forehead, with the rest involving the defender turning away at the last minute.

 

[typicalfan]

Unless it is deliberate, its play on.

 

[Shifty]

It'd be very difficult to develop any sort of fair ruling, sometimes it's as much or totally the ball runners fault.

Josh Miller's is about the only one you could say was primarily caused by negligent action by the tackler. He really needs to change his approach for his own sake as much as anyone else. Carl Webb is a very aggressive player, but he generally has better technique than that and there's not much you can do to avoid the Tonga incident.

It will add weight to the push for head gear to become mandatory. I'm not in favour of that, but I've copped quite a few concussions and it is an issue that the game needs to take seriously.

 

[Shifty]

Of all the head clashes over the weekend, I would say the only one that really involved any recklessness was Webb's on Hickey.

In fact I'd go as far as to say it was deliberate, knowing the man's rep for foul play. His was the only one which hit front on with the top of his forehead, with the rest involving the defender turning away at the last minute.

Webb was reckless, but I actually think Miller had some intent to contact the head.

 

[AJH]

Unless it is deliberate, its play on.

I suppose that is part of my question though. When is a head clash deliberate? Unless it's a head-butt, is it possible to separate accidental and deliberate head clashes? Obviously fans have their own belief's (as Danish has shown), but how can a referee decide on a players intent?

Al

 

[mean_maori_mean]

I think both Webb and Miller should be charged with minor offences.

Both knowingly went in with the head - whether they were intentionally is debateable their technique was horrible and should be charged.

 

[AJH]

It'd be very difficult to develop any sort of fair ruling, sometimes it's as much or totally the ball runners fault.

Josh Miller's is about the only one you could say was primarily caused by negligent action by the tackler. He really needs to change his approach for his own sake as much as anyone else. Carl Webb is a very aggressive player, but he generally has better technique than that and there's not much you can do to avoid the Tonga incident.

It will add weight to the push for head gear to become mandatory. I'm not in favour of that, but I've copped quite a few concussions and it is an issue that the game needs to take seriously.

That's exactly my point Shifty. Thanks for your input.

 

[AJH]

whether they were intentionally is debateable their technique was horrible and should be charged.

Thanks mmm. My point exactly. No difference to most high or lifting tackles.

Cheers

 

[typicalfan]

I suppose that is part of my question though. When is a head clash deliberate? Unless it's a head-butt, is it possible to separate accidental and deliberate head clashes? Obviously fans have their own belief's (as Danish has shown), but how can a referee decide on a players intent?

Al

That is difficult however I dont think there was any intent in any of them on the weekend.

It is not like these guys are running out of the line head first.

What if Miller went down and Weyman stayed up, would the penalty go against Weyman? that would be ridiculous IMO.

 

[saints_fireup]

I don't think that there was any intention or malice on the part of the tacklers. It is just a corollary of the physical nature of the game. It is one of the reasons that Union outlawed the shoulder charge. The potential for injury is immense.

The league obviously shouldn't go that far. It is one of the elements that attracts the crowd.

However, I've always been of the opinion that if a player loses consciousness prior to falling to the ground, inadvertently loses control of the ball as a direct consequence of the loss of consciousness, then it should not be deemed a knock on. The ball should just be played. I see this as fair outcome as the loss of control is not due to error on the part of the player, but by a factor completely outside of their control.

 

[Eels Dude]

How could you possibly decide who is the instigator of a head clash? If it's a head clash, it could be the attacking player's fault as much as it could be the defender's. And realistically it could be the defender who ends up worse for wear. As long as the defending player went into attempt a legal tackle, you certainly cannot penalise them for what is quite simply an accident.

No player is ever going to attempt a deliberate head clash as they face knocking themselves out in the process.

 

[Shifty]

That is difficult however I dont think there was any intent in any of them on the weekend.

It is not like these guys are running out of the line head first.

What if Miller went down and Weyman stayed up, would the penalty go against Weyman? that would be ridiculous IMO.

Miller does. It's not the first time I've seen him go in like that and he's come off worse for wear more than once.

I do tend to suspect Webb just on his temperment as Danish suggested, but even for Webb it is a big call to suggest that was deliberate.

 

[Shifty]

I don't think that there was any intention or malice on the part of the tacklers. It is just a corollary of the physical nature of the game. It is one of the reasons that Union outlawed the shoulder charge. The potential for injury is immense.

The league obviously shouldn't go that far. It is one of the elements that attracts the crowd.

However, I've always been of the opinion that if a player loses consciousness prior to falling to the ground, and inadvertently loses control of the ball as a direct consequence of the loss of consciousness, it should not be deemed a knock on, and the ball should just be played. I see this as fair because the loss of control is not due to player error, but by a factor completely outside of their control.

I think your last point has a lot of merit.

 

[typicalfan]

Miller plays the game tough, but not illegal.

 

[AJH]

That is difficult however I dont think there was any intent in any of them on the weekend.

It is not like these guys are running out of the line head first.

What if Miller went down and Weyman stayed up, would the penalty go against Weyman? that would be ridiculous IMO.

But the rules put the onus on the tackler in all cicumstances to tackle 'correctly', so any penalty would still go against the tackler.

That brings to mind the tackle a few years ago, where I think it was Buderus (correct me if I'm wrong) was being tackled and he up-ended the tackler and speared him into the ground head first. No penalty because Buderus wasn't the tackler.

Thanks for your input.

 

[typicalfan]

There are plenty of areas where the onus is on the ball carrier eg leading with knees or elbows.

How would this be any different. This is the toughest sport, please don't try to soften it, it is games like the one on the weekend that make Rugby League what it is.

 

[Shifty]

I don't think Miller is deliberately going out to break the rules.

I do think he needs to reconsider the way he puts his body on the line. Not the effort he puts in, just the technique he uses. There's courageous and then there's just plain silly.

 

[Pierced Soul]

i think there was a parra forward in the late 90's who used to lead with his head and i think after he knocked a few blokes out he actually got suspended. i think this was 97-98?

 

[typicalfan]

That is like when people used to blame the running style Martin Lang had for his own high shots.