How feasible would a L'Aude merger be?

[The Daddy]

After the successful merger of the three UTC teams into becoming Catalan Dragons with decent crwods and Toulouse Olympique touch wood winning a Super League franchise would it be feasible to consider whether it be another 5 or 10 years later an Aude merger consisting of Lezignan, Carcassone and Limoux..three towns where league is considered to be the number one sport and all three teams this season from what I've been led to believe have been getting admirable attendances. I know that all teams hate each other but for the cause of a pro team would fans, players and administrators put aside their differences?
What would the team be called and where would they play?

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

After the successful merger of the three UTC teams into becoming Catalan Dragons with decent crwods and Toulouse Olympique touch wood winning a Super League franchise would it be feasible to consider whether it be another 5 or 10 years later an Aude merger consisting of Lezignan, Carcassone and Limoux..three towns where league is considered to be the number one sport and all three teams this season from what I've been led to believe have been getting admirable attendances. I know that all teams hate each other but for the cause of a pro team would fans, players and administrators put aside their differences?
What would the team be called and where would they play?

Some residents of the Aude region, excited by the success of Les Catalans in its first year, raised the issue briefly last year. But most are resigned to it not happening. No way that will happen IMO. Insufficient large business sponsorship as well as insufficient population for a supporter base, especially after Toulouse is promoted. I have discussed this before.

If the SL are to go to three French clubs it will be out of Paris, Marseille and Lyon for the third. I believe that Paris must be next because it is the capital, and there is an enormous potential player base and potential wealthy sponsorship there. Without Paris, rugby league will never be considered a national game in France. Paris is the centre of everything important in French life. Rugby Union understand that. That is why the rugby union created Stade Francais.

To create a third French professional club will require years of preparation in the form of lower level teams being created and eventually being promoted, and at least one being promoted to LER. Tas Baiteiri woud be needed full time for 6 months to a year to make that happen. Three to five years of Catalans and Toulouse in SL from 2009 should create the quality player surplus in the south to man a Paris SL team by 2012-2014. Later the Paris juniors will rise through the ranks.

If Toulouse works then Paris is a good chance. If Paris works then Lyon and Marseille should not be far behind, with Bordeaux also a prospect. All these cities have lots of people to provide players and supporters, and lots of private money for sponsorship.

The Aude region is best suited for the LER and as a grassroots feeder for the professional clubs.

Personally, I would favour Paris and a second London club as the best expansion options for SL in the next expansion to 16 after 2009. But lots of things have to be done to rectify the newspaper publicity drought situation for rugby league in London first.

 

[Dakink]

Is there any way you could put that in a map or a link to a map for those of us that dont know France that well!

 

[Ari Gold]

Some residents of the Aude region, excited by the success of Les Catalans in its first year, raised the issue briefly last year. But most are resigned to it not happening. No way that will happen IMO. Insufficient large business sponsorship as well as insufficient population for a supporter base, especially after Toulouse is promoted. I have discussed this before.

If the SL are to go to three French clubs it will be out of Paris, Marseille and Lyon for the third. I believe that Paris must be next because it is the capital, and there is an enormous potential player base and potential wealthy sponsorship there. Without Paris, rugby league will never be considered a national game in France. Paris is the centre of everything important in French life. Rugby Union understand that. That is why the rugby union created Stade Francais.

To create a third French professional club will require years of preparation in the form of lower level teams being created and eventually being promoted, and at least one being promoted to LER. Tas Baiteiri woud be needed full time for 6 months to a year to make that happen. Three to five years of Catalans and Toulouse in SL from 2009 should create the quality player surplus in the south to man a Paris SL team by 2012-2014. Later the Paris juniors will rise through the ranks.

If Toulouse works then Paris is a good chance. If Paris works then Lyon and Marseille should not be far behind, with Bordeaux also a prospect. All these cities have lots of people to provide players and supporters, and lots of private money for sponsorship.

The Aude region is best suited for the LER and as a grassroots feeder for the professional clubs.

Personally, I would favour Paris and a second London club as the best expansion options for SL in the next expansion to 16 after 2009. But lots of things have to be done to rectify the newspaper publicity drought situation for rugby league in London first.

hmmm.... but it seems to me that the crowds of Lezignan and carcassone are bigger than the crowds UTC were getting prior to their inclusion into SL. Surely the 3 clubs put together would be more financially viable than a club such as Wakefield?

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

This map shows the main cities of France, does not show Perpignan, capital of the French Catalan region, which is not a big city. It is in the lower right hand corner, the lowest of the administrative divisions above Spain and Andorre, and located on the Mediterranean Sea well below and between Montpellier and Toulouse::

 

[Dakink]

Ahh thank you - where is the main population concentration?

How about League playing numbers?

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

Go here and see the rail lines connecting all these cities. Pass your mouse over the TGV words. If you have a problem seeing any of the cities I have named, work though and click on the city names Paris, Lyon, Marseille, Perpignan, Carcassone, Toulouse, and Bordeaux one at a time on the left hand side of the map:

http://downloads.raileurope.com/map_europe/france.html

As you will see all these cities are on the Premier rail lines, though not all high speed.

It is high speed TGV :

Paris- Lyon - Avignon - Marseille

Paris-Lyon- Avignon - Perpignan

Paris-Bordeaux

I show this because it indicates that the French professional teams could get around quickly by train to play each other.

Slow speed but main line :

Bordeaux-Toulouse-Carcassonne-Narbonnne-Perpignan

Perpignan-Narbonne-Montpellier-Marseille

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

hmmm.... but it seems to me that the crowds of Lezignan and carcassone are bigger than the crowds UTC were getting prior to their inclusion into SL. Surely the 3 clubs put together would be more financially viable than a club such as Wakefield?

I am not sure where you get the stats from for the crowds. Carcasonne vs Lezignan may get decent crowds, because their populations are overwhelmingly pro-rugby league. But the gate receipts from crowds cannot sustain a professional club. The cost of players, coaches and staff, facilities etc, require major corporate support. Les Catalans could get it because the Catalan region is bigger than the Aude region, and has a great successful businessman as Chairman.

There is no large scale business or industry in the cities you named of the Aude region hence little corporate sponsorship available. Carcassonne is mainly a tourism sustained town (World Heritage Site) but half the size of Perpignan. Lezignan and Limoux are mere villages. Lezignan and Limoux each have a population of around 9,000

When the Super League chose Les Catalans as the club to join Super League the contest was between Perpignan-French Catalan region; Toulouse; and Villeneuve. The latter was not really in it, even though then the top team because of lack of population and financial base. Once they were chosen UTC bought several top players from Villeneuve (Fakir, Rinaldi, Frayssinous) for the year prior to SL entry.

In Britain the clubs depend on businessmen with deep pockets who hope the gate will eventually pay them back, plus other corporate sponsors, plus Super League club financial grant from Sky TV. Gate receipts alone cannot sustain a professional club.

I would prefer the Aude region to Wakefield on aesthetic grounds alone. Carcassonne is a wonderful place. The stadium at Carcassonne desperately needs modernisation. However the mayor is the brother of the President/Chairman of the French Federation, so it is politically possible. But I cannot see an Aude professional club being financially sustainable.

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

For population stats for 2003 go here:

http://www.citymayors.com/gratis/french_cities.html

http://www.citymayors.com/france/france_urban.html

Lezignan and Limoux each have a population of around 9,000

 

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

whoever wants a map. www.maps.google.com has worked wonders for me.

 

[roughyedspud]

as i've said elsewhere..

i'd rather the french teams work towards developing a full time league in france rather than stripping the league of it's clubs and merging them together to try to get into super league..

to get the french up to standard internationally having 1 or 2 teams in super league will only get them so far in the short term,long term a 12 or 10 team (some mergers might make sense) full time league will be for more beneficial...maybe we should start a thread on the viabilty of full time french "super or elite 12" competition and possibly moving to summer rugby??maybe get canal+ involved with french RL in the way sky got involved with british RL..i know canal+ already show catalan dragons games..

oh and don't count on toulouse getting one of the 2 SL franchises in 2009..cumbria & south wales are likely to be chosen before toulouse and for toulouse to get in at the same time one of the current SL clubs would have to be kicked out...and the increase from 12 to 14 depends on whether SKY will up it's TV contract money to cover the 2 extra club and the exsisting 12 clubs don't lose TV money..




ps.i feel the same way about new zealand,the ridiculous amounts of money,$nz20-$nz30million being thrown about with the southern orcas bid for super league would be far better spent developing a full time kiwi league..

 

[rugby13france-livrade+sav]

They are in the figures:
. Villeneuve : 47
. Villefranche : 12 (south of Decazeville, between Cahors (46) and Rodez (12))
. Toulouse : 31
. St Gaudens : 31
. Carcassonne : 11
. Lézignan : 11 (between Carcassonne and Narbonne (11))
. Limoux : 11 ( south of Carcassonne, 30 kms)
. Perpignan : 66
. Pia : 66 (suburb of Perpignan)
. Carpentras : 84 (25 kms from Avignon (84))
. Lyon : 69

http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zzzcartexljco2wvg2.gif
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2815/zzzcartexljco2wvg2.gif
. click on the map to enlarge it


http://www.deschiron.fr/Rubrique%20Actualit%E9s/Plans%20de%20situation/Carte%20France%2001-02-05.jpg
. click on the map to enlarge it


http://www.viamichelin.fr/viamichel...mDeparture=05/05/2007&function=okMap&pim=true
with your mouse you can move the map and visit France

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

oh and don't count on toulouse getting one of the 2 SL franchises in 2009..cumbria & south wales are likely to be chosen before toulouse and for toulouse to get in at the same time one of the current SL clubs would have to be kicked out...and the increase from 12 to 14 depends on whether SKY will up it's TV contract money to cover the 2 extra club and the exsisting 12 clubs don't lose TV money...

We are counting on Cumbria not being given a franchise because the RFL has already said that Cumbria will not be given a franchise. The reasons are obvious. First and foremost Whitehaven (the only candidate) does not have a quality stadium and it has no chance of getting one.

But on top of that the entire Cumbria county does not have the population nor the business sponsorship. Cumbria is an economic backwater with poor transport between its far flung small towns. Cumbria has no future in Super League. The RFL has said as much. End of story.

Can't you put this in your memory bank rougheyspud, so that I don't have to keep reminding you?

as i've said elsewhere..

i'd rather the french teams work towards developing a full time league in france rather than stripping the league of it's clubs and merging them together to try to get into super league..

to get the french up to standard internationally having 1 or 2 teams in super league will only get them so far in the short term,long term a 12 or 10 team (some mergers might make sense) full time league will be for more beneficial...maybe we should start a thread on the viabilty of full time french "super or elite 12" competition and possibly moving to summer rugby??maybe get canal+ involved with french RL in the way sky got involved with british RL..i know canal+ already show catalan dragons games.. .

We have already had a thread on why a full time French professional league is not viable at this stage.

Where do you fantasize that the French would get the financial backers, the players, and the supporters to sustain even a 10 team professional league?

To repeat: Not enough money from businessmen or sponsors, not enough people to support, not enough players to play. The game is too small at this point in time.

Growth can only come slowly with a gradual increase in playing strength (to around 70,000) and gradual expansion of professional clubs to provide opportunities for these players. Each single addition to the professional league will accelerate youth involvement. But it will take 15 years at least for French rugby league to get to the necessary level of player and sponsor involvement to achieve a self sustaining French professional competition. A Toulouse club joining Super League is the next logical step for 2009, which will lift young player involvement and the financial attractiveness of the game for sponsors in France. It is amusing roughyedspud that you want a 10-12 team French professional league to be created out of nothing, but you won't give Toulouse (an urban area with three times the population of all of Cumbria) the real opportunity, that is financially practical, to build itself first in Super League.

French rugby league will not be given a bigger cable TV coverage nor free to air TV until it reaches a threshold of geographical spread of professional clubs. It would require Toulouse and Catalans to be joined by Paris and at least one or two other big cities (out of Lyon, Marseille and Bordeaux). National TV wants a national audience. Sponsors want a big audience. Toulouse first and later Paris will start to provide that.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Read these if you can translate , very intersting if true.

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.rugbyforumxiii.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D18606%26sid%3Dff2c8d622e4c02885d4ebcf139907e74

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://canari-club.forumactif.com/CANARI-CLUB-c1/DISCUSSION-f1/SAISON-PROCHAINE-AVEC-LES-ANGLAIS-t1233.htm

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

The guy is saying that he "heard in the stands at Albert Domec on Tuesday" that 5 or 6 best LER clubs will join the Super League next year. This means Toulouse, Pia, St Gaudens, Lezignan, Carcassonne and maybe Villeneuve. The rest of the story is that the other French clubs will become part of National 1 division.

My response:

1. This is a rumour. Nothing official.

2. Where will they get the money to fund the travel every other week?.

3. How are the English NL1 clubs going to pay for their travel?

4. How can the English NL1 fit 6 French clubs into their now ten team competition?


I have heard discussed in France, by influential non Frenchmen, something a little different. That there could be a divided competition, with the best of LER playing best of NL1 in the second half of the season, and that Ryan Air could pay for the transport in return for sponsorship rights.

Sky now telecasts one NL1 game a week and that could provide more money for these participants.

This latter plan makes sense to me, but what the weaker French and English clubs would do in each country, when the 5 or 6 stronger ones are playing each other, has not been explained.

 

[roughyedspud]

babelfish translated it as 5 or 6 LER clubs will join the (british) league one...surely thats the national league one? not super league..LIGUE ONE BRITISH - even with my crap french,that does'nt mean super league does it??

adding french clubs to the national leagues would make sense and something i'd welcome..


an interesting development if true..

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

babelfish translated it as 5 or 6 LER clubs will join the (british) league one...surely thats the national league one? not super league..LIGUE ONE BRITISH - even with my crap french,that does'nt mean super league does it??

adding french clubs to the national leagues would make sense and something i'd welcome..


an interesting development if true..

You are absolutely correct. It is National League One. My translation was in a rush. But if you look at my response to the story, in points three and four, I obviously understood that National League One was the meaning. I had just rushed in writing carelessly the beginning of my translation.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

The building blocks for a pro European comp.

Maybe something to do with the GP and French clubs walking out?

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

The building blocks for a pro European comp.

I think it is more of an attempt to increase popular interest and player skills in both the French domestic comp and NL1, since most NL1 and LER clubs will never get into Super League.

But remember it is still only a rumour.

Maybe something to do with the GP and French clubs walking out?

What are you referring to? What does GP refer to?

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

The French and English teams not taking part in the European comp in union next year.