Hypocrisy runs rampant at Tigerland

[CyberKev]

Terry, Terry, Terry...

The season hasn't even started yet and already you have one hand firmly clasped on the Black Pot trophy!

Bagging out Ottens in the press when you know only too well that you made it impossible for him to stay at the club by offering him a 50% pay cut, is bad enough. But this isn't a tissue on the temerity shown in questionning a player's character and motives given your own history.

Wasn't that you, Tezza, who sooked about not having what it takes to hold your place in the powerful Hawthorn line-up (circa late 1986)? Didn't stay and tough it out, did you? No, you ran away to get an easier gig for massive dollars in the weak Tiger side.

And wasn't that you, Tezza, who couldn't break into that weak Tiger side and sooked long and hard at the end of 1987 about how awful a place Punt Road was, and how you just needed to get out?! The Tigers may have been a less than savoury environment (much like they are now), but did you stay and fight for your spot? Did you stay to help the club out of the rut and to try and repay their faith for throwing big bucks at you and offering you a second chance? No, you ran off to get fresh big bucks that were on offer at the Bulldogs.

I'm pretty sure that was you stabbing Alan Joyce in the back in 1996, Tezza. Nice show of character there, I dare say.

And it was definitely you crying at that press conference about how tough things were for you at the Bulldogs and how you needed things to be sugar-coated for you to be able to advance as a coach. You'd ran the Hounds into the ground, Tezza, but you weren't going to be the type to tough it out and get them back off the mat, were you? Not when Sydney were offering you huge dollars on the sly to go North!

Pathetic effort.

And for all the Tiger fans embarrassing themselves by supporting this nonsense, all I can say is where was your indignation when Brown took the big dollars on offer under the Miller Plan and ran from the Hounds?

 

[meltiger]

:lol:

Still upset your mob signed a nothing coach to lead your mob ov pretty boys to a wooden spoon I see Kev...............

Terry chose Richmond rather than go home to a team going no where. Just accept it and move on 8)

 

[meltiger]

I'd also give you a hint... Brown's signing was more than just purely $$$

We were all saying the moment he looked at Richmond - What's the bet Wallace is on his way for 2005... Collingwood offered him similar dollars and he came to us even though the Pies were coming off back to back GF's.

 

[CyberKev]

:lol:

Still upset your mob signed a nothing coach to lead your mob ov pretty boys to a wooden spoon I see Kev...............

Terry chose Richmond rather than go home to a team going no where. Just accept it and move on 8)

Avoiding the issue and playing the man, I see... A sure sign that you can't fight fault with my argument and thus need to hide away from the harsh reality.

And, given that your club is the reigning wooden spooner, and still a big chance to go back to back, I'd be a bit more restrained with those sort of hypocritical comments. Richmond won't be able to play their top side against Essendon & Freo reserve outfits in the real season you know.

Had Hawthorn been silly enough to offer Wallace $150k+ per season over market value AND offer him 5 years instead of 3 then he would have jumped at it. He would have jumped at ANY club silly enough to offer it, its just that Richmond was the only one that was.

To this point, Clarkson may be a "nothing coach", as all coaches are before they've coached a game in anger, but at least he isn't a proven failure as Wallace was at the Dogs AND we can send him on his way in two years if things aren't going to plan.

I'm not sorry we don't have Wallace, sunshine... He has a repetitive history of running away when the going gets tough and we can't afford that sort of largesse.

 

[CyberKev]

I'd also give you a hint... Brown's signing was more than just purely $$$

We were all saying the moment he looked at Richmond - What's the bet Wallace is on his way for 2005... Collingwood offered him similar dollars and he came to us even though the Pies were coming off back to back GF's.

Absolute nonsense...

The reality was that Brown gave the Hounds verbal agreement to sign a new deal, but backed out when the Miller Plan dollars (more than Collingwood and everyone else was offering) came along. Wallace was light year's out of the picture, at that point, with Sheedy & Malthouse still highest on the Richmond wish list.


You can try to rewrite history all you like, but it won't wash.

Ottens left Richmond when offered a 50% pay reduction... Brown left the Bulldogs after being offered a salary increase.

Who is the bigger moneygrabber?!

 

[meltiger]

Who is the bigger moneygrabber?!

Given Brown had shown good form and Brad had shown nothing prior to leaving their prospective clubs... Ottens.

I'm not angry he's gone. The club is better off without the gutless type of player that he is. I am angry that he left on the basis of being offered a decrease after being paid on potential for years and never delivering. Pure & simple.

If I beleived for a second this "I needed a change" lie that he has been spinnng it wouldn't bother me.

 

[CyberKev]

When we were down and out, sides were quite happy to pick over our carcass," Wallace said about the Tigers of 2004 which lost their last 14 matches.

Like the Tigers did to a badly haemmoraging Fitzroy in the mid-90s, eh Plough?

Like Miller did to the Hounds with Brown, eh Plough?

Like you were trying to do to the Bulldogs in your full-on poaching attempt for messers Bowden & Gilbee, eh Plough?

Someone's taken the hypocritic oath...

Its as bad as Mick Malthouse's sook about Nick Davis a couple of seasons back...

 

[meltiger]

Avoiding the issue and playing the man, I see... A sure sign that you can't fight fault with my argument and thus need to hide away from the harsh reality.

Playing the man? :lol:


What was the point of your post other than a bitter attack at Wallace Kev? :lol: If we want to talk hypocrites.

Hawthorn supporters wanted Wallace until he signed with Richmond, then all of a sudden you didn't want him.

Cut the crap and get over the fact that we got the best coach on the market.

We won't get even close to the wooden spoon Kev, and I'm willing to place anything you like on that statement...

 

[meltiger]

Like you were trying to do to the Bulldogs in your full-on poaching attempt for messers Bowden & Gilbee, eh Plough?

Richmond told both of them we wouldn't draft them. & just on Bowden... The Bowden's are a Richmond family, you can hardly blame the club for going after the only brother to not play for Richmond.


With regards to Fiztroy... They ended up on the wrong side of a bad trade. That is all.


The paralels between Jeff & Brad though are astounding.......

 

[Twizzle]

Ottens has class and he chose a class team

you cant blame him for that

 

[CyberKev]

What was the point of your post other than a bitter attack at Wallace Kev? :lol: If we want to talk hypocrites.

I gave Wallace a well-deserved hammering for sooking to the media and bagging out a player for doing something that he's done numerous times himself (only worse). He's copping similar, well-deserved sprays elsewhere.

Hawthorn supporters wanted Wallace until he signed with Richmond, then all of a sudden you didn't want him.

It is true that some Hawk fans wanted him and some still do. It is also true that the Hawthorn board would have signed him had he fitted into a reasonable pay scale. The myth of Wallace the coach is a pervading one, and neither the Hawk board nor a section of its fans immune from the potent media perpetuation of this myth. The myth can't hide the reality than he ran away from 3 clubs when the going got tough; that he has a winning record of under 50%; nor that he was able to benefit from Alan Joyce's lead-up work at the Hounds (Joyce took the Dogs to the finals in 1994 & 1995, before injuries cruelled the side in 1996); that he ran the Bulldogs list into the ground...

Cut the crap and get over the fact that we got the best coach on the market.

On coaching history and win/loss record he was the third best coach available.

We won't get even close to the wooden spoon Kev, and I'm willing to place anything you like on that statement...

Same old, Craig. I could trail back through postings to highlight your annual errant statements that Richmond will finish well above Hawthorn, but its hardly worth the effort.

Still, if you say it enough it has to happen eventually...

As with almost all Tiger tragics you're obsessed with comparing Richmond to Hawthorn. Finishing 15th ahead of Hawthorn may send Tiger fans into raptures, but finishing 15th ahead of Richmond didn't make Hawk fans feel any better about themselves, I can tell you. Bizarre stuff. From the Hawthorn side, Richmond doesn't enter into the equation as we're assessing ourselves from the more sobering standpoint of how we fare beside the likes of Port & St Kilda.

 

[meltiger]

It is true that some Hawk fans wanted him and some still do. It is also true that the Hawthorn board would have signed him had he fitted into a reasonable pay scale. The myth of Wallace the coach is a pervading one.

On coaching history and win/loss record he was the third best coach available.

Both facts that were not sprouted from the mouths of Hawthorn fans until after he had signed with Richmond, or at the least when the Australian stated he was headed to Richmond. Fact is Kev, you all wanted him until it became clear he was ours.

Hawthorn fans need to accept the following:

Lethal is coach of Brisbane and has no interest in ruining what will become one of the legendary names in coaching by returning home to Hawthorn
Wallace used Hawthorn to up his price at Richmond and had no intention of signing and returning home
Rocket didn't even seriously contemplate a return home to Hawthorn and signed with Footscray before a real offer was on the table

Hawthorn subsequently got stuck with an untried coach. The sooner you all accept that and stop sniping at Richmond the happier you all will be.


Just in regards to coaching history ... If Wallace had, had Lockett standing in the goal square in the 1997 preliminary final.... Do you honestly beleive Adelaide would have made the GF?

Wallace did ALOT better at Footscray than Rocket did in Sydney, with less to work with. That is a fact.

 

[meltiger]

Same old, Craig. I could trail back through postings to highlight your annual errant statements that Richmond will finish well above Hawthorn, but its hardly worth the effort.

Still, if you say it enough it has to happen eventually...

As with almost all Tiger tragics you're obsessed with comparing Richmond to Hawthorn. Finishing 15th ahead of Hawthorn may send Tiger fans into raptures, but finishing 15th ahead of Richmond didn't make Hawk fans feel any better about themselves, I can tell you. Bizarre stuff. From the Hawthorn side, Richmond doesn't enter into the equation as we're assessing ourselves from the more sobering standpoint of how we fare beside the likes of Port & St Kilda.

All I said was Richmond won't win the wooden spoon lol

I actually think we can make the top 8. They are better (& now better coached) than the rabble we watched last year.

I beleive Hawthorn will win the spoon, yes. That's because they are crap. lol

 

[CyberKev]

Lethal is coach of Brisbane and has no interest in ruining what will become one of the legendary names in coaching by returning home to Hawthorn

I've been arguing that a return to Glenferrie by Matthews wouldn't necessarily be a great thing for sometime now. Messiah notions almost always end in tears for the club concerned.

Wallace used Hawthorn to up his price at Richmond and had no intention of signing and returning home

Indeed he did use us to push his price up. He knew too well of Richmond's lack of professionalism and inability to show financial accountability. These flaws are well known in football circles and are good reasons why the Tigers have been the worst performed club in the comp for two decades. Its also the reason the club is millions of dollars in debt.

Its also well known that Wallace loves a dollar more than most (he wouldn't get out of the solarium in the morning for anything under a Grand), and would've went anywhere for the money and years Richmond were offering.

Rocket didn't even seriously contemplate a return home to Hawthorn and signed with Footscray before a real offer was on the table

Yawn... Rocket was desperate to get an offer from the Crows (it didn't come), he was then desperate for an offer from Hawthorn (he didn't think one was coming), and in a display of neediness beyond anything I've ever seen from an experienced coach, jumped at the first offer received in case another one didn't come his way.

Good luck to him. The reality was that he wasn't the first choice of anyone at Hawthorn.

Hawthorn subsequently got stuck with an untried coach. The sooner you all accept that and stop sniping at Richmond the happier you all will be.

Yawn... Every coach starts out as an untried coach, including the average ones (Wallace & Eade) and the top class ones (Pagan, Matthews).

Clarkson, as with all coaches before him could go either way. To this point , however, he offers everything Wallace does (and more) at considerably less than half the price and risk.


[quote="meltiger]just in regards to coaching history ... If Wallace had, had Lockett standing in the goal square in the 1997 preliminary final.... Do you honestly beleive Adelaide would have made the GF?{/quote]

If your mother was your father...

Would that Bulldogs side have not won the premiership if Pagan & Matthews had of been in charge?

Its irrelevant. Joyce put a good side in place across 1994-95. Wallace used an injury crisis and internal club dissension to come to power in 1996. With the injury crisis behind him, and several young guns having developed nicely in the interim, proceeded to make the most of a comparitively weak competition in 1997.

Forget 1997-98, which had largely been set up for him. The more important story on Wallace is the way he took the side and ran it into the ground.

Wallace did ALOT better at Footscray than Rocket did in Sydney, with less to work with. That is a fact.

It is drivel

The Bulldogs list that Wallace had contained fab youngsters, rock solid old hands and several Brownlow medallists was easily stronger than the Sydney list.

I'm no great wrap for Eade either. He was set-up by Barassi who did the hard yards, and was helped enormously be having a Tony Lockett in his prime on hand.

Still, outside of Lockett, Kelly & Creswell there wasn't necessarily a lot to write home about in that Sydney side.

To suggest that Eade had a better list than Wallace is nonsense, and only shows that you've allowed yourself to become another willing victim of the Wallace media myth.

 

[meltiger]

:lol:

You keep telling yourself all of that Kev. We'll see in 23 weeks who was right or wrong ;-)

I still think taking a tall ahead of Tambling was truely dumb and will come back to bite.


I must say though you are certainly one of the most persistent person I've ever argued with, always have been lol

 

[CyberKev]

All I said was Richmond won't win the wooden spoon lol

I actually think we can make the top 8. They are better (& now better coached) than the rabble we watched last year.

I beleive Hawthorn will win the spoon, yes. That's because they are crap. lol

If you weren't a Richmond fan you'd be certain that they'd make the bottom four and would be a wooden spoon fancy... :roll:

You really are a child at times, Craig.

Hawthorn will win the spoon because they're crap (fair enough), yet Richmond will make the 8, even though if you formed a combined team from the two clubs, there'd be more Hawthorn players in it than Tigers?!

Still, I'm glad you've guaged the side is massively better than last year on the back of a loss to an ordinary Collingwood side, and a couple of preseason beatings on reserve grade opposition.

 

[meltiger]

Still, I'm glad you've guaged the side

Gauging it on nothing that has been produced in the pre-season. Brisbane brought down a good side though I must state - Missing Brown, yes and that helped not expose what I expect may be a glaring weakness - Our backline - ie: We only lost to Collingwood because Schultz (CHB) went off. Until that moment we were in total control of the game.


Richmond's list is better than they have performed over the last few years. I have always been utterly adamant of this. Why should I suddenly change now?

A better coach can get a lot more out of the players than the previous one did. Esepcially one who is too arrogant to put up with the personalities within the list.

Don't kid yourself, everything you think is bad about Wallace is good for Richmond and sorely needed.

 

[CyberKev]

:lol:

You keep telling yourself all of that Kev. We'll see in 23 weeks who was right or wrong ;-)

I still think taking a tall ahead of Tambling was truely dumb and will come back to bite.

Indeed...

Tambling? Possibly a mistake.

But then again, the young player attracting the most buzz across the preseason was Buddy Franklin. The Cat & Power faithful were waxing lyrical about him, as you probably would for a 17 year old who stands 198 cm tall and weighs 91kg and getting ever heavier. Kicks like Anthony Rocca, leaps like a basketballer, runs like a nippy winger and has hands like a young Tredrea. Is likely to debut this weekend, at least 12 months ahead of predicted schedule.

If he continues this line of development, Hawthorn won't be unduly worried about Tambling. Particularly if Roughhead also settles neatly into the top side.

 

[meltiger]

Meh, that's a matter of opinion. Usually I would be mega shitty at Richmond for not taking talented KPP's in the draft if available but I really think they have something special in Deledio and Tambling.

I'd love to have either of them at Hawthorn.

They're safer bets than our boys, Roughhead in particular, but the tall boys will bring greater longterm benefit to us than a player like Tambling, even allowing for the polish he should bring to a side.

That being said, Hawthorn needs to pick up midfielders over the next couple of drafts.

Travis Tuck will give us a boost as a f/s pick-up and a bottom four finish will pretty much guarantee us a quality young midfielder.

If, as I hope is not the case, we finish bottom with a priority pick we would most likely pick-up another tall (depending on how well Kirkby develops at Box Hill) and a gun midfielder, rounded out with another capable midfield prospect in the 2nd round and Travis Tuck f/s in round three.

We'd then hope to pick-up either a strong midfield type or a capable ruckman through the PSD.

Clarkson has box-seated the club long-term by ringing in the talls early, but the downside in the short-term is that we can ill-afford any injury problems with our top midfield rotation.

 

[CyberKev]

What the bloody hell's going on here, boys???!!!

Someone's playing funny buggers... :evil:

Hang-on, did I hit the 'edit' button Craig's last post instead of the 'quote' one?! #-o

I was hemmed-in out of the centre, trying to work through heavy traffic when I attempted to squeeze out the handball to a running teammate only to force the turnover...

(Translation - I was trying to work on a spreadsheet, negotiate a phone call, answer a query from my boss, and bang off a response to Craig all at the one time and screwed-up abysmally.)

Sorry, Craig, although I had to get you to break new ground and praise Hawthorn somehow :lol: