In an 18 team comp...

[BuffaloRules]

so players are getting more for doing the same and NRL is spending more on running the game. Awesome outcomes from $500million of extra money over the last 5 years! I'll look forward to seeing what they can spend the next windfall on that makes no difference.

Yes players are getting more, like they are in every other professional sport..

How much are the best EPL players getting paid compared to 5 years ago?

Would you be happy to see the best athletes currently playing RL go to other sports?

 

[taipan]

So a guesstimate .well done LOL.
We all know about strategic plans, ask Smith.

And if the Pirates are a basket case for a few years on the field, then what?Everything in the grass will be rosy.What other revenue sources in an economy that is struggling, and who knows for how long.New fans expect a decent playing roster and not thrashings.We are only now just getting the Knights up to scratch on the field from a heartland area.

Hell, imagine if Rockhampton was in ATM with all the disaster around from Debbie.The club would suffer enormously.

I don't know how to emphasise it more, than you have to have a decent base of experienced and up and coming players ,and not fall into the Crusher's trap of leftovers and union nuffies.Our male numbers have been dropping, for many reasons, one no doubt being under resourced.You try to improve that situation, before you expand.You secure a good playing base that fills expansion teams.

The Storm had the luxury of News money behind them, no new expansion club can expect that period.Plus they got some good players from the Reds,Rams and the North.Without the News money ,the storm may well have ended up on the Central Coast.

You talk about the games current malaise.Yes crowds are down, but a month of crap weather doesn't help,nor the scheduling.Yet memberships from just about every Sydney club are at record levels..We get negative Sydney press due to idiots ,that creates issues.WA's economy is in a malaise.Check the latest stats, compared to the eastern states.
You can do a strategic plan and business plan in say WA ,and the economy goes into a nosedive,becuase the Chinese are chock o block with iron ore and their economy is stalling.The FIFO workers lose their jobs come back to the East.The ones who purchased property in the Iron Ore towns are left with huge property drops.

Other codes are having problems with either crowds,Tv ratings or financial issues.If that isn't a malaise I'm not here.The A League have been warned if they expand ,it will be a costly exercise, it may undermine teams such as Sydney FC.You can't see issues with other codes, you are living in a bubble.

Expansion is great I'm for it, but what comes first the health of the code as a whole or a single new club.That's the decision to be made by administrators, not by your guessing nor my latent optimism.

 

[taipan]

They should bring in two Perth teams. Imagine then...the decision!!!

Problem solved, why didn't I think of that.Why stop at two?

 

[mistertaylor]

In the current draw cowboys play 12 in the road, and roosters only play 7 games out of Sydney, 2 of those are Newcastle and canberra, while another is a roosters home game taken to adelaide

Yeah I realise that the non-Sydney teams will always have more flights per season due to the realities of travelling to away games.the point i was trying to make is that a conference system based on Sydney and non-Sydney pools creates a greater disparity, because the Cowboys would have to travel to Perth every single year whereas the Roosters would only travel to Perth every second year.

 

[Perth Red]

So a guesstimate .well done LOL.
We all know about strategic plans, ask Smith.

.

Never heard of forward forecasting? It's not fricking rocket science, nrl non media revenue in 2016 was $144mill, new tv deal is around the $390mill a year mark ergo revenue in the range of $530million. Total revenue 2016 was $350mill.

So from 2012 revenue went up from $185mill to last year $350mill a year. Result clubs still broke, male player numbers down, crowds static, tv audiences static, no savings in the bank. Outstanding work.
Now we will see another massive increase from$350mill to around $530mill, let's see if we get any different results and if the game is in a position to expand by the end of this lotto win.

yes for the first time ever the nrl produced a strategic plan and full annual reports so the stakeholders can hold them accountable, well done smith!

 

[Perth Red]

Yes players are getting more, like they are in every other professional sport..

How much are the best EPL players getting paid compared to 5 years ago?

Would you be happy to see the best athletes currently playing RL go to other sports?

Which sports are these top rl p,ayers going to go to? French union?

All for player increase payments by we aren't talking CPI! We are talking of doubling salaries in a relatively short space of time. Harsh reality is this is dead money for the game, it does little to make the game better in any way, we are never going to lose large amounts of players and paying Thurston $1.5mill instead f $1mill makes no difference for the code. Hopefully the rumpurs of the cap rising steadily rather than a straight jump to $10mll is true.

 

[BuffaloRules]

Which sports are these top rl p,ayers going to go to? French union?

All for player increase payments by we aren't talking CPI! We are talking of doubling salaries in a relatively short space of time. Harsh reality is this is dead money for the game, it does little to make the game better in any way, we are never going to lose large amounts of players and paying Thurston $1.5mill instead f $1mill makes no difference for the code. Hopefully the rumpurs of the cap rising steadily rather than a straight jump to $10mll is true.

Aren't players going to French Union now anyway?

And I'm not just talking about the top lpayers in the future, but more importantly what sport talented teenage kids decide to pursue if there are major differences in what they can make in RL compared to AFL and Union...

What relevance is CPI to this discussion? You have alrrady stated that the NRL revenue has gone up 250 per cent in the space of 6 years...doubling of salaries is probably not enough.... Like I said see what is happening in other sports around the world on the back of massive TV deals?

As one example ( there are plenty of others) how much are the top cricket players making these days? Multiple millions a year... Is that making cricket better in any way?

 

[taipan]

Never heard of forward forecasting? It's not fricking rocket science, nrl non media revenue in 2016 was $144mill, new tv deal is around the $390mill a year mark ergo revenue in the range of $530million. Total revenue 2016 was $350mill.

So from 2012 revenue went up from $185mill to last year $350mill a year. Result clubs still broke, male player numbers down, crowds static, tv audiences static, no savings in the bank. Outstanding work.
Now we will see another massive increase from$350mill to around $530mill, let's see if we get any different results and if the game is in a position to expand by the end of this lotto win.

yes for the first time ever the nrl produced a strategic plan and full annual reports so the stakeholders can hold them accountable, well done smith!

Yeah I've heard off forward forecasting ,I done accounting work in my job part from marketing.
I have some idea FFS,
Mission accomplished by George Bush on an aircraft carrier in the Gulf ,talking about Iraq,and it's still going on.
I've heard of forward forecasting with Coles,and the results for Target are worse than expected .
The Old tourist industry forecasts in advance, then a Cyclone hits and Hamilton.,Hayman Island are being closed for months.

Have you bothered to check the money expended by the NRL on saving the Titans and Knights,and Tigers and Dragons.Not just for the last financial year.Or the money lent to the Sharks for legals when they were going through problems.
Do you have any friggin ideas o fall the expenditures for all the other activities the NRL forks out for.If there were such a surplus they would not be hitting the future tin can for monies.

And as an AFL sycophant bragging about their performances ,the AFL with all their income more than the NRL, still have clubs losing $93m,TV ratings remaining static.flicked from Wellington NZ wasting money there,no International expenditure,numbers down in Victoria,Suns a basket case,Lions not much better.GWS continuing to suck in huge sums for no Nth TV improvement and static crowds.A debacle with Essendon drugs's issue.Relying solely on the AFL,no SOO no Internationals,no RLWCs. Yeah right mate.

Smith was a good business banker, he did not understand rugby league culture.When you are dealing with the likes of Murdoch,you can't adopt the same procedure as you do in Banking business.Sport is entertainment,attracting eyes to the Tv screen,Murdoch knows this and his ruthlessness makes Smith ,Grant et al look like pussies.We got screwed on the TV deal by Murdoch,because Smith went early.Yes the ch9 deal initially looked great, then Murdoch said no doubt screw you.
WE should have got similar monies to fumble ball ATT.
We spent millions extra on nuffies in H/O brought in by Smith,who were since flicked.Still trying to figure out what that woman did he was paying a fortune for in admin.

Don't even bother with union, and the A League doesn't know which way turn.
You don't have the balls to acknowledge problems other codes have ,carrying on as though it's just the NRL.

 

[Perth Red]

Difference was in smith we had someone with balls who knew the value of the product. He got a strong fta component of the deal but the commission withered like little girls when murdoch called them out. You really think Murdoch would have put his monopoly on pay tv in Australia at risk by not doing a deal with nrl?

And re admin, our admin costs last year under a Greenburg were higher than at any other time in the game, go figure.

So you agree that based on the best knowledge we have and Barron some unforeseen disaster the nrl's revenue next year will be around $530mill? Glad we cleared that one up lol.

 

[taipan]

Difference was in smith we had someone with balls who knew the value of the product. He got a strong fta component of the deal but the commission withered like little girls when murdoch called them out. You really think Murdoch would have put his monopoly on pay tv in Australia at risk by not doing a deal with nrl?

And re admin, our admin costs last year under a Greenburg were higher than at any other time in the game, go figure.

So you agree that based on the best knowledge we have and Barron some unforeseen disaster the nrl's revenue next year will be around $530mill? Glad we cleared that one up lol.

It's all well and good if you got balls, but if you can't use the other part, it's useless.

The admin costs if they had retained the old Smith appointments would have been far higher, than now exists.

I don't agree with any of your forecasts.I work on the basis of what the code has in the Bank ATM,the TV deals and other income and the outgoings needed.When the NRL owned clubs are finally sold offhand other debts repaid.That's my starting point.No pie in the sky, crystal balling.

Basic accounting suggests if there is no money in the Bank ,Confucius say no spenda the dollar on expansion,no money to cover catastrophes .Simples.
He also say,if you have some money do you spend on grassroots or forget them and expand.Simples.

 

[Perth Red]

Look we'll never agree and that's ok, you are a safety first personality and I am a risk taker, that much is obvious. I stick to my point that if the NRL cant find a way to plan for expansion and make it a reality with an increase in revenue from $185million a year to around $530million a year (over a relatively short period) then it isn't the money that's the issue, its the intent and vision. Always lots of mouths to feed, always clubs in crisis (club revenue has equally gone through the roof in last 5 years yet they still run at losses), always grass roots to build. None of that ever changes, so how much and when do you decide expansion is affordable?

You talk of selling clubs etc, that is short term issues, we are talking medium-long term planning to expand before next Tv deal to maximise the potential revenue from it. The plans for expansion should have been laid out in 2013 when the games revenue started to take off, a plan for how to grow interest, player depth, corporate interest, Government support etc etc so when the time is right we can strike. If that was 2016-17 to maximise this TV deal or if its 2020-21 to maximise the next one is irrelevant, just have a plan and get to work ready for realising the games potential to grow.

With all the games money and despite the potential for the game to grow and eventually have an NRL club in WA, since 2015 we have only seen two new DO funded in WA. Our elite Jnr program is solely reliant on the corporate support of a WA RL fan and the games profile has gone backwards. How is that planning for future expansion IF Perth is a place they see a club one day?

Arguably without a ninth game and a stronger national profile the NRL will never close the media deal gap on the AFL let alone overtake it.

 

[Perth Red]

The admin costs if they had retained the old Smith appointments would have been far higher, than now exists.

.

I thought you didn't deal in hypotheticals?

 

[taipan]

I thought you didn't deal in hypotheticals?

I deal with you that's enough for any grown man.

They salaries were already far higher, and the retained Smith picked staff would still be commanding big monies.Not hypothetical a fact.One in particular was on about $600,000 pa still await her results.She and a few others didn't last long.If they had been retained the admin costs would now be in the stratosphere,and you would be whining louder than usual.

 

[Perth Red]

I deal with you that's enough for any grown man.

They salaries were already far higher, and the retained Smith picked staff would still be commanding big monies.Not hypothetical a fact.One in particular was on about $600,000 pa still await her results.She and a few others didn't last long.If they had been retained the admin costs would now be in the stratosphere,and you would be whining louder than usual.

All of which is hypothetical as it can never be tested as will never exist. Who knows maybe he would have got rid of the consultants at some point, maybe he would have taken cut, maybe a hundred different things could have happened by now.

What we do know as a FACT is that the nrl under Greenburg last year spent more money on admin than Smith did when he was in charge. Try and argue any differently.

 

[taipan]

All of which is hypothetical as it can never be tested as will never exist. Who knows maybe he would have got rid of the consultants at some point, maybe he would have taken cut, maybe a hundred different things could have happened by now.

What we do know as a FACT is that the nrl under Greenburg last year spent more money on admin than Smith did when he was in charge. Try and argue any differently.

Easily tested.The wages that existed when these super duper execs were involved were real recorded.
The new people or whoever is in the admin have real wages that are recorded.

Their specific jobs are recorded.No digital early set up when Smith's mob on deck.If there are more people performing worthwhile productive tasks instead of non productive expensive ones, one can easily argue that point.

Maybe he(Smith) would do this or that.Now that's hypothetical.

 

[siv]

our revenue has gone from $185.6million to an expected $520million in just 6 years. It is staggering that we cant afford it and everything else that is important. That is a massive massive increase in money available to the game. If I was Toovey I'd be demanding an investigation! our clubs should be more than sustainable by now, the game got significant funding increase 2013-now, wheres that money gone? and our grass roots well funded. Heck can you honestly say either area is significantly better today than in 2012 when the game was running on a third the income?

New only starts next year

What ive noticed is the salary cap is on a staggered annual increase

But grants are fixed over 5 years

In year 4-5 clubs of the TV agreement clubs are struggling with their finances

I think a better model would be to increase grants in line with salary cap increases

If the cap is $8.3 mil in 2018 then the grant should only be 130% of this $10.8 mil

And note the loan mentioned is just a advance on next years grant

 

[taipan]

The famed $590m($582m) income the NRL received in 2016,consisted of revenue from the NRL $375m plus the 16 clubs $207m.IOW the NRL did not have $582m to utilise for whatever including expansion and disbursements.They had $375m.
$184m to NRL clubs and not included a $8.6m loss Knights/Titans.
The costs for 1 year to prop up the Knights and titans last year was $6m.

Grant and Smith blew $3/4m on the failed new stadium at Moor Park.

Another point whilst admin costs went up,CPI /insurances beefing up integrity unit,and additional productive staff does that, the figure was a reduction percentage wise on NRL total revenue over the prior years.
In 2012 it was 19% of expenditure.
2013 18%
29014 18%
2015/16 16%

Whilst admin costs went up 4% ($21.5m),they generated a 12% increase in non broadcast revenue of $144.2m.

In fact in 2016 contributions toward player welfare went up 2%.
$10m guaranteed for the Nth Qld stadium.

Now to salaries for the previous high flyers who were flicked.apart from Smith,Suzzane Young,Shane Richardson,Lewis Pullen, Sandy Olsen,Michael Brown to RLWC duties.All Smith appointments.

Greenburger is on $500,000 less than Smith.
Just a few snippets i picked up along the way.

The real test will be when the 2018/2022 TV revenues click in.We can whinge and bitch at the current situation,but many changes such as control of scheduling and jump in revenue comes into place from next year.That should include extra expenditure on grassroots.

 

[Teddyboy]

Just check the SMH or Stuff.co.nz article by Andrew Webster and players wanting to be millionaires and you see what is wrong with one of the areas in the NRL.

 

[taipan]

Just check the SMH or Stuff.co.nz article by Andrew Webster and players wanting to be millionaires and you see what is wrong with one of the areas in the NRL.

Of course union players don't want to be millionaires thats why they flock to France.And soccer players who earn $1m per game don't want to be millionaires.And fumble ballers don't want to be millionaires.

Let's all be paupers and switch to busking at railway stations or outside public dunnies.That'll bring the crowds back.

 

[Teddyboy]

Of course union players don't want to be millionaires thats why they flock to France.And soccer players who earn $1m per game don't want to be millionaires.And fumble ballers don't want to be millionaires.

Let's all be paupers and switch to busking at railway stations or outside public dunnies.That'll bring the crowds back.

But the French comp is getting the crowds as does Soccer around the world.