Is John Howard to blame?

[imported_Roopy4246]

I'm putting this in 'controvery corner' and expecting a lot of differing opinions here.

I have heard a few people say now that John Howard is to blame for the Aussie kids who were killed in Bali because of his stance on Iraq.

Is little Johnny making us a target for crazed muslim fanatics with his uncompromising opinions, or would they be having a go at us anyway?

Should we take the same approach as just about every country except for GB and USA, or should we keep boring it up the bastards?

My own opinion is that if we are going to do it (invade Iraq) we should do it and stop talking about it, and if we are not going to do it, we should just stop talking about it and upsetting all those fanatics. Either way, John and his boys should keep their mouths shut.

 

[ozbash]

i think it would happen anyway,howard or no howard.
its the west they hate and we fall into that category.
my own view of bush,s stand is that i support the guy 100%, he should finnish what the limp wristed clinton could not.
these muslim extremists understand 1 thing only,force.
dialogue is a waste of time, a nuclear winter would not be a waste.

 

[legend]

Im 100% in agreeance with Ozbash. To say Howard is to blame is just plain stoopid IMHO. Even the opposition support Howards stance so regardless of who is in power, Australia would be behind America 100%

 

[El Duque]

It is idiotic, tupid and cruuel to blame the P.M.

The idiots who blame him for this would've blamed him if he'd never opened his mouth.

We must not back down, imo, or terror has won the battle.We must fight on agaist it.

 

[imported_midas]

John Howard to blame?Give me a break!All he has done is stand up for OUR rights.
All these people who say we shouldn,t give in to the will of the US seem to be suggesting that we give in to the will of the Muslim Extremists.Bugger that!
As to why we should ally ourselves with the US it is simply a matter of necessity as we have a very large and very aggressive neighbour on our doorstep.Anyone who doubts this should not doubt it after the weekend.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Not Howard's fault, like you say probably would've happened anyway. I doubt that the attacks were even aimed at Australians in particular; as someone said on another forum pissed up aussies and pissed up yanks or poms all look the same. The attacks were most likely aimed at the west in general or at the indonesian government with the aim of destroying the tourist industry.

 

[Willow]

As an individual, Howard is not to blame... thats going too far. But I don't agree that he is fighting for 'our' rights. John Howard is no more a 'man of the people' than Kerry Packer is.

These bomb attacks are done by mindless extemists who are probably more disgruntled with whats going on in their own country as much as anything. The majority of Indonesian Muslims are very moderate and are naturally appalled by the Bali bombing. Its not their fault that some ratbags are trying to enforce their view upon others.

Having said that, these things don't happen overnight. Ongoing domestic policies within Indonesia have a lot to answer for just as America foreign policy has a lot to answer for... whether we like it or not, Australia is part of these policies.

While there is inequity in the world, there will always be extremists. IMO, a more lateral approach is required before we can bring an end to this so-called 'terrorism'.

 

[El Duque]

I heard one guy on Sky news saying it was more likely if it was an attack against Aussie it was because of our involvement in East Timor not anything to do with Iraq.

Who knows?

 

[Willow]

Indeed, who knows...?

But early indications are that this is the work of fundamentalists who have a bone to pick with the Indonesian government. By attacking western tourists, they feel they have attacked Megawati Sukarnoputri's administration.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

El, the problem with that theory is the only groups in Indonesia with the means to carry out such attacks would be the Islamic extremist organisations alligned to Al Quaeda. These groups are more inclined to be concerned with Iraqi involvement than East Timor. Anyway there would be no point in targetting Australia over Timor now, as at this point Australian invovement has little or no impact on Indonsia.
In any case I don't think Australia should regret its involvement in Timor; it was the right thing to do and besides they owed the Timorese for the lives they sacrificed to defend Australia in WWII.
As you say though it is a big if that Australians were targetted in particular at all. I think it is unlikely personally.

 

[Willow]

Actually Spacie, a recent CIA report has said there is no direct link between Al Quaeda and Iraq. My understanding is Al Quaeda is more of a loose thread of militia groups which form into terrorist cells. Their agendas may differ from country to country.

Nevertheless, it doesraise an eyebrow that this attack happened just days after the US Congress gave George W Bush approval to to attack Iraq... probably just a coincidence.

In any case, it seems to have very little to do with East Timor.

 

[st ted]

Is John Howard to blame?
Complex question and can not be answered with any accuracy until the bombers are identified beyond a reasonable doubt.
Yes, Howard is to blame and so is the Labour party if the bombingcan been proven to be in retaliation to Australian foreign policy.
This business of hopping on the coat tails of Uncle Sam without question, leaves a lot to be desired.
Unfortunately, we can not believe any rationalisation that Howard gives us due to his record of deceipt.As a nation, we are being led by a liar and I have no faith in any thing he would tell us regarding the attackers.
Who did the bombing?
Why wasn't it organised by the CIA, why did not ASIO play a part?
How desparately does George want war?
How quickly will Howard follow George?

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

How quickly will Howard follow George?? Straight away

The Australian gov't has lost the ability to think for itself. It wouldn't matter if we were going off to fight a war on Mars, the Australian gov't would back them up. I just find it ridiculous, the government isn't summing up the situation. Doesn't matter whether labor, liberal or the martians are in power. We are our OWN country. The gov't is elected to carry out the wishes of the individual. If the majority of people don't want to go into a war, than the gov't should respect our wishes. Going off surveys (and i know they are only samples) so far, the general consesus is that the majority don't want us to.

Heaps of people and events had motives for what happened in Bali. Was it Al-Qaeda, was it Iraq inspired, was it retaliation for our East Timor stance, was it disgruntled boat people organisers who got frustrated at our strict policies on it?? Could be anyone. People are just grouping everything together at the moment, when in reality, they are all distinctly different issues.

Is Howard to blame?? No, the people who put the bomb into the bars are. Did Howard in some way contribute to these events through his actions?? Well, to a certain extent. If Bush goes in there and ignores the UN, you might as well throw the book out the window. The UN has kept a lot of wars from breaking out since WWII. For Bush the egotistical prick to come out, ignore all orders and fire away would royally screw international relations.

Look at Israel/Palestine. What has retaliation done there?? How about the countless other number of conflicts that have resulted in thousands of deaths?? What achieved?? OK, ill paint this scenario, we go in there tomorrow and bomb Beirut. Great, Iraq collapses and we get Saddam. But that will piss off so many fanatics, and you could beat your bottom dollar that within days or weeks, it would be on for young and old in the US, and many,many more innocent people would die. Troops would go to war, fighting a war that they may never return from.

I know its not a popular view. But the pen (or in this case the mouth) is more powerful than the sword (or in this case the bomb). Going in and blowing people up WILL NOT solve the problem. Anyone who doubts that should go take a look through some history books. While im not advocating a backdown, a violent clash is not what we need. Enough innocent people have died already.

Moffo

 

[Willow]

Moffo: "Look at Israel/Palestine. What has retaliation done there?? "

The most recent news from that part of the world is that Israeli tanks and bulldozers have gone into a Palenstinian district.

They say that they found a tunnel in one house where they believe the locals were hiding Palenstinian terrorists. Without hesitation, they ordered the family into the street and proceeded to bulldoze their home.

Tragically, part of the house fell onto a neighbour's home and crushed to death, a three year old child who was sleeping inside.

Its hard to imagine how this could happen. During the reign of the Third Reicht, the Nazis used to raid the homes of Jewish people looking for fugitives. But as far I know, not even the Gestapo were guilty of bulldozing the homes of these future Israelis.

I'm sure the tragic irony of all this isn't lost on the reader.

The bottom line is that another family are homeless as another community injustice occurred in Palenstine this week... and it barely went without notice. I can say with some certainty that anotherbunch of kids joined one of the many Palenstinian resistence groups last week and will no doubt be branded 'terrorists'.

Additionally, we can be say without a shadow of doubt that some school bus or shopping centre in Israel will be bombed in the near future. This will happen as sure as the sun will come up tomorrow and will be in retaliation for one the many actions by the Israeli military.The foretold Palenstinian bombing will be almost certainly condemned by George W Bush as a 'barbaric act'.

Through either design or circumstance, Australia supports this sort of stuff.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Willow, I wasn't implying a direct link between Al Quaeda and Iraq. However given Al Quaeda's history I think it is almost inevitable that they will see US aggression toward Iraq as another example of US/western imperialist agression against the Islamic world, and will attempt to punish the US and it's allies accordingly.

 

[legend]

Well, I thought I would sit back and watch this thread unfold before I came forward with my views and after having read all of the responses and the talk of retaliation being used as a means to an end, what elsecan we do? We can't let this go unpunished and for us to do nothing shows apathy and cowardice.

The U.S and the Australian government only last week warned us about the possibility of strikes by terrorist groups in South East Asia but the Greens and Democrats dismissed this as scaremongering. How would Bob Brown be feeling right about now. We have no option but to reaffirm our position on the war against terror.

The U.S have to push forward with thier initiatives of ridding the world of the terrorist element and the casualites will be high. For those of you sympaethetic to the Islamic cause, let me give you a few facts.

In Egypt, Christians are now barred from voting in elections as they are seen as insignificant and a minority with few rights.

In Sydney, there is a Muslim Community Radio (MCR) on 92.1 FM and they are preaching to all and sundry about the solidarity of Muslims worldwide but not once was there a condemnation of the bombings in Bali. This same radio station is preaching about one international Islamic Nation that would totally dominate the world in years to come by comminting such atrocities against Western countries such as Australia, America and England. That is the reason for the bombings. The killing of westerners is seen as a major coup and as an act of defiance and these people will not stop. Ever.

Unfortunately, we have passed the point of no return with these radicals and death and mayhem is the only language they understand. So let's talk to them in their language which makes a pre emptive strike on Iraq look all the more likely as the body count rises.

Also, the Koran speaks of such acts in defence of your religion (Islam) and part of your religious duty. What threat was there to the Islamic faith in Bali? No other faiths are trying to convert Muslims en masse to Christianity and Bhuddism by subversion or violence. The Koran incites believers to acts of violence against non believers.

Our very way of life is under threat and the U.S should take whatever steps they deem neccessary to eradicate the world of the extremists. Many innocents will die in defene of their faith, but many innocents have already died for no reason at all.

I'm sorry, brand me a racist, I don't care. Most here have been advocating Islam as a peaceful religion but as we continue to see these continuing acts of violence and destruction, what other conclusion can one come to? They are anything but peaceful and the old line of "It's only a minority" is starting to wear very thin because these acts are happening allover the world. Hardly a miority one would think.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

You know what, a lot of these people are evil and arseholes. They act in prejudiced ways, they are aggressive, ruthless and everything but fair. They are violent. They are also extremists. I apologise if im coming from a 'to religious' view for most of you on this one, but if we do the same (ie: blowing up Iraq, and killingthousands of innocents in the process), doesn't that make us just as bad?? For me, doing something just because someone else does it doesn't make it right. I couldn't live with killing people who are innocent. Most of them live under the fear of Saddam and his mad man army. If America go the bomb on Iraq, nothing is surer than thousands MORE Innocent people dying.

Seeing Australians die is a tragedy. But my point is, its an equal tragedy to see any innocent die, whether they are from Australia, Iraq or Mozambique. Blood lost and tears shed for no reason, the world doesn't need any more of this.

I dont know about the Koran. There seems to be a number of differing interpretations of it (hence the extremists). Who knows what it really means? I have heard Islamic leaders on the radio in the last couple of days offering sympathies for what happened. I don't think they all think in the same abhorred fashion. Or is it the same old story coming out again, that we fear what is different? I couldn't follow the government line on this one, i just don't think they are operating in a clear and open-minded way.

Put it this way, only the pen solves conflicts, not the swords. Whether 1 or 1,000,000 people die, it will still end with an agreement, pen on paper. So why go through the process of millions dying if the end situation will be the same? I think as a species, we are intelligent enough to talk our way through conflict, not bash our way straight through it.

Im not a sympathiser with the extremists or any of them. They are filthy creatures. But there must be a better way to work it out. People with a different approach to it all, unfortunately, this will probably never happen. The world is to set in its way in relation to conflict solution

Moffo

 

[legend]

Yep Moffo, I can just see Bin Laden and Hussein sitting down with their Mont Blancs next toBush signing a treaty saying we promise not to be bad boys anymore.

Just remember Moffo, you'll have to pray five times a day pretty soon if things continue in the same vein.

 

[Reggie]

I'm really over Islam, it has become a point of unification for its converts all over the world who essentially have nothing in common except that they belong to the have nots, instead of the haves. As Willow says, none of this stuff will stop while there are inequities in the world.

Islam is rubbish, so are Christianity and Judaism (and this coming from somebody who was brought up in the 'best' traditions of Irish Catholicism). The real irony for all three religions is that they actually worship the same deity, just differing over the historical contexts.

To believe in some concept of God or afterlife is one thing, to believe in an interpretation of religious behaviour set firmly in the Dark Ages is moronic and reflective of the educational background of many followers of Islam (ditto fundamentalist Christians and Jews). For many of the so-called 'educated' followers there is often another sinister agenda, as we know.

But strip away the religious 'tags' from the Middle East, from Northern Island, from the Balkans, from Cyprus....from most if not all the 'religious' conflicts of the past 2000 years, what you really have is somebody wanting the assets (usually productive land) owned or usurped by somebody else.

We never learn and I'm afraid for our coming generations that in the not too distant future some idiot like Saddam will actually use a nuclear or biological device to createa global disaster before everybody realises that collectively we are a trigger hair away from destroying the planet many times over.

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

Reggie,
That is a very pessimistic view of the world. I just wish I could find fault with your logic, but I can't.

Maybe the only hope for the World can be found in the words of that song from the eighties, even Russians love their children too (just put muslims in instead of Russians).