Is John Howard to blame?

[Cronulla_Mania]

" People with a different approach to it all, unfortunately, this will probably never happen. The world is to set in its way in relation to conflict solution"

Thats what i said at the end of my last post. I know, it will not happen, im just being idealistic. It sets another question though, do you think people are fundamentally bad? I mean, someone like Saddam, do you think the ways of evil people such as him could ever be changed?? I mean, with the right person, who has the right ideas, the right amount of knowledge and 'charm', do u think this person could ever persuade the leaders of the world to change their ways?

Im sure in the case of Bin Laden, i have read things where he used to be a deeply religious man who had a deep love for his family. What i mean is that he wasn't born as a 'bad cookie'. I guess im hoping, more than anything else, thata person with the midas touch could still be able to find common ground, between all the differing personalities and beliefs of the world.

I think your 2nd comment is a bit over the top. If this Koran mentioned that thousands of years ago, why have they never done it in the past? Granted, we have had 2 traumatic experiences and a number of other bombings over the last 2-3yrs. But terrorism is nothing new. People have been bombing/killing innocents for thousands of years. Its just the sheer magnitude of the WTC attacks that have brought this on. I mean, how would've u felt if u were Japanese after the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?? U would've (rightfully) felt that the world around you was crumbling, and that the Americans were coming in to take over the place. I think we feel much the same way at the moment. It is a bit scary, but i think that we can't lose sight of the big picture.

Moffo.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Yeh, exactly Roopy.

It would be easy to hate Muslims at the moment. To think that they were alien creatures from another planet. But hey, at the end of the day, they share a lot in common with the human race (that is, all of us). Perhaps that should be kept in mind as well

Moffo

 

[legend]

I have no problem with that but why don't they?

 

[bender]

I havent followed the bombing news all that closely, but i find it a bit hard to see how a bomb in a foreign country which killed about 150 people (i am not sure of figures but i thought that about 20 of which were Australians) can be blamed on John Howard. If it was in direct retaliation, wouldn't they have been more likely to bomb somewhere in Australia?

Anyway, the whole point which should be brought home is that theextremist Muslims who are despised by all in this thread (not the peaceful ones) are extremeley dangerous and pose a significant threat. I think it is time for some old school anti-communist style law making. As far as i am concerned anyone who is involved with any type of Muslim extremism in this country or has any links whatsoever, whether that is through simple expression of interest or in any way supporting the acts oreven knowinglyassociating with such peopleisguilty of treason and should be treated that way by all. If this really is a war, we as a nation need to pull together and treat it as such, rather than just using it as a political tool and sending a few unfortunates over to assist the USA.In other words, it is one in all in.

 

[Reggie]

Speaking of Muslim extremists, did anybody hear the interview with The Parrot on breakfast radio in Sydney this morning? He got a call from a fellow called Zac, who described himself as a Muslim extremist. Zac went on to say he was 19, born in Australia, and considered himself to be Muslim first and foremost, then Australian, then Lebanese.

Zac regurgitated the line about America bringing it on themselves (he must have a copy of The Best of Anthony Mundine tapes); then he extended the argument that Australia cannot expect too much sympathy over the Bali bombings as Australia is in cahoots with America. He said he would never fight for Australia against his Muslim brothers even if they were terrorists.

Well let me tell you something, Zac old son: you can be Muslim, you can be Lebanese, but you ain't Australian - I've just rescinded your citizenship. In fact, I'd like you to be a bit more Lebanese than you are by going to live in Beirut for a few years, where your big mouth will shorten your life expectancy further than if you dressed up like the Ayatollah and walked out into the middle of Stadium Australia at half time in the grand final with a placard reading "I f**k Aussie sluts".

 

[El Duque]

This sounds like the same piece of dogshit I saw on TV yesterday.

They should shoot mad pricks like him on the spot!

 

[Willow]

Legend:
I don't think anyone will call you a racist. You said the same in another thread concerned that your extreme views would be percieved as racism.

But I think you should be set straight on a few things.

"In Egypt, Christians are now barred from voting in elections..."
Firstly, according to its Constitution, Egypt is a social democracy in which Islam is the state religion... This is similar to Israelbeing a Jewish state.
I'm not aware of any law in Egypt that bans Christians from voting... where did you read this?

My understanding is that the Coptic Christians make up about 10% of the population and hold seats in the Egyptian Parliament.
So is there something I'm missing here?

Anyway, there are voting restrictions in so many countries, why pick on just one?
The US, a 'democracy', is willing to send its soldiers into battle to defend Kuwait who have no voting rights unless you've inherited it. The leadership and its heirarchy is decided by birthright. What do you think of that?

"In Sydney, there is a Muslim Community Radio (MCR) on 92.1 FM and they are preaching to all and sundry about the solidarity of Muslims worldwide but not once was there a condemnation of the bombings in Bali. "
As for radio station MCR-FM (92.1) ... sorry but I'm not familiar with them... which coat hanger do they useon their tramsmission tower?

Seriously mate, we still are hanging onto certain freedoms in this country and we must acknowledge that some will have things to say on the airwaves (no matter how small their listenership) which do not agree with all viewpoints.

Personally, I'm surprised that we don't hear people saying that shockjocks like the Parrot should be banned for spurting out his right-wing propaganda... this is despite the fact that he is getting paid to talk garbage by people who will gain financially from what he says and the fact that he is reaching a much larger audience than some small community radio station. Fair dinkum...!

"The Koran incites believers to acts of violence against non believers."
As for the Koran... its a matter of interpretation... just like the Bible. Plenty of people have gone on some murderous Crusade because they read it in the Bible.

"Our very way of life is under threat and the U.S should take whatever steps they deem neccessary to eradicate the world of the extremists."
As for eradicating the world of extremists... that would be grand... how do we decide this? It can be successfully argued that America is the home of extremism.. Afterall, more Americans have died at the hands of another American than has ever happened in any war of the last 100 years.

"Many innocents will die in defene of their faith, but many innocents have already died for no reason at all."
So do we include Christian extremists as well? I mean, that's what your saying... "Many innocents will die in defene of their faith..." Sorry mate, but that sounds as bad as any fundmentalist who's willing to die (and kill) for his faith..
I don't want any stupid button-pushing Christian in charge of ny welfare any more than I want some stupid Muslim doing the same. It starts to get messy when we pigeon hole extremism into religious groups. If you need proof of this, just look at the current mess around us.

If we could find a way of putting all the religious extremists (from all sides) on the one leaky boat and sending them to into the Marianas Trench then I'm all for it. But the boat would have to take the lot.. no predujuce there.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Several hundred years ago if you had looked at which religion was causing the most war and evil in the world it would undoubtably have been Christianity. Whole civilizations were wiped out in the name of god. At this point in time it appears that the overwhelming majority of religous extremists are muslim. What is significant I think is that the majority if muslims are currently living in conditions and at levels of education that would have been common a century or more ago in the west. And therein lies the problem. I dont think that it's inherent in Islam; anywhere where you get a large mass of poor, undeucated people they are going to be succeptible to being brainwashed and manipulated,and a simple religious cause is the most effective way to do this. Most religions can be used to incite violence and hatred, you can't criticise the Koran for it without acknowledgeing that the bible can and has been used in exactly the same way.
As for Zac, I wouldn't believe what some little jerk says on the radio anyway. He's probably some spotty little tossbag having his moment of glory on the radio acting out some tough boy fantasy who wouldn't even have the balls to face up to one of us in a decent bit off 1 on 1 biffo anyway.

 

[imported_midas]

I have been thinking about some of the comments made about poor uneducated people being brainwashed and wonder if some of their anger is mis-directed.
The Middle East has the bulk of the worlds oil and yet a large percentage of their population live in poverty.Why?
I have a friend who is Syrian and he attented school for only 5 years because education was not compulsory (still isn,t) The same apparently applies to quite a few other Middle Eastern countries.
So with all this fabulous wealth ,it is in the hands of a select few who keep the rest in a state of ignorance and poverty.
Maybe they should be terrorising the rulers of their own countries.
I see that Iraq are having elections this week with Saddam the only candidate-yet they will all turn out and vote.Why?

 

[Willow]

The election system in Iraq is bizzarre. I have tried to find out more about apart from waht we hear via AAP and CNN but its very difficult to get the full story.
Apparently, everyone has to register for voting with their full name and address. They have the option for voting for Saddam or not voting for him. Its not a secret ballot so most just vote yes to avoid being hassled later on.

98.5% or 99.8% or whatever vote in favour of Saddam. This begs the question... who are the 1 or 2% that are voting 'no'...? I get the impression that this figure is made up anyway. Its a wonder that they even bother.

Obviously, this is a pretty crappy attempt at democracy butnot muchdifferent to Kuwait which has no elections at all.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I think that there's several reasons people in such countries don't get good educations. In poorer areas people just don't don't see any value in getting an education rather than going out to work as early as possible in most cases. This is especially true if higher levels of education are not state funded.
For the more priviledged jobs are often hereditary or obtained via nepotism, so education just isn't that necesary. Basically you're position in society is pretty much seen as being set from birth so a lot of people don't see the point in more than basic education.
As for the elections in Iraq, they're about as credible as the elections in Zimbabwe. You'd vote for Hussein or Mugabe as well if getting your house torched was the alternative.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

<table width=311 border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td valign=top width=30></td> <td valign=top>Has our <a target=_top>stance</a> on Iraq made Australia a terrorist target?
<a target=_top>Previous Results</a>
<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%" border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td></td> <td>

</td> <td width=180 height=10>

13294</td></tr> <tr> <td></td> <td>

</td> <td width=180 height=10>

11565</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
That is off the ninemsn website. Interesting thoughts i think, from such a large sample It is brainwashing and fear tactics. I could only imagine what Iraqi people think, as in if they don't vote for him they will be hunted down and killed. Its a terrible way to live. Moffo

 

[Willow]

Moffo, I'll just help a little with that poll and fix the question which actually reads:

Has our <a target=_top>stance</a> on Iraq made Australia a terrorist target?

 

[Willow]

The whole concept of democracy is flawed.It rarely works.

Its a joke in Iraq but thats not the only place. In some Pacific democracies, its common practice to bribe the voters. In Australia we call it 'pork barrelling' in New Guinea they literally use pork to entice the voters.

And offcourse Australia is not immune to all this. We have a system where voting is compulsory... how is that democratic? It leads to one party voting...people who vote without looking at the policies.

And in the USA, we have President who received less than half the votes and got in courtesy of several high court judges. Now he has his finger on the button.

In the words of the Simpsons: 'I've said it before and I'll say it again... democracy just doesnt work.'

 

[Willow]

This reminds me of a story...

WhenI was 18, Iknew a guy who proudly declared that he had voted in his first ever elections. The election was for both the lower house of parliament and the senate.

Knowing him to be a bloke of left wing principals, I asked who he voted for and he said, "Jack Mundy offcourse!"
(Jack was a Unionist in the 70s who instigated the world's first 'Green Bans').

I wasn't surprised by this, but I then asked, "who did you vote for in the senate?"
My mate said he didnt know any of the names but recognise one mob so just voted for them.
I asked who and he answered, "Fred Nile".
(Fred is a right wing christian fundametalist - quite the opposite to Jack Mundy).

I explained to him the difference and he was shattered. He got pretty pissed that night... hmmm, come to think of it, he still owes me for that carton...

Afterwards, he looked at how many votes there were and comforted himself by saying, "well, my vote didnt mean anything anyway".

For the record, Fred Nile won his seat in the Senate comfortably.
Jack Mundy didnt get within a bull's roar.

 

[Willow]

Before today, the Australian Foreign Affairs Dept had released a statement saying that Indonesianauthorities had failed to releaseinformation about a possible attack.

Today, they had to admit that Australian govt officials were pre-warned of the attack.

With Alexander Downer in charge, who knows what will happen?

 

[ozbash]

""I have been thinking about some of the comments made about poor uneducated people being brainwashed and wonder if some of their anger is mis-directed.""

lol, the only thing that has changed is the living standard.we aint so poor anymore.

the brain washing goes both way.

 

[Willow]

"...the brain washing goes both way."
lol... never a truer word said.
How many people only use TV, newspapers and radio to get their news?

 

[SpaceMonkey]

There is one important difference. In modern western societies science has weakened the hold that religion has over people to the extent that trying to rally anyone behind a religious cause is pretty pointless, we just don't care that much any more.

 

[Willow]

SM: Thats brings us back to education then.

I'm not talking about learning how to read and write, although that is important. I'm more refering to a broad access to information which serves to empower people to solve their own problems with positive outcomes.

Its been shown that education plays a large part in reducing poverty, disease and war.