It's NOT a mess

[Objective View]

Hey! There he is!!

Notwithstanding your apologetics, you're growing on me, Crush.

Straight Shooter

 

[Old Timer]

You've kind of lost me here.
"Its never a mess until the shit hits the fan"? So its not a mess now but could be a mess if we start losing games and miss the 8? I'd agree with that. What if the shit doesn't hit the fan and we keep winnng?
"Seeing the danger and making sure it doesn't hit the fan"? So like what, putting field in for McCrone and seeing if he is up to first grade or bringing dufty in at the back? What happens if those two fail miserably?
"Until we are winners again the conjecture will remain"? What do you mean by winners?

Simple Crush
Some people never see a problem unless the shit hits the fan and when it does don't know what to do about it.
Others perceive the shit is going to hit the fan and take preventative action
Then those that never saw a perceived threat say to those that took the preventative action "why did you do that everything was ok and just because you made a change it doesn't mean there was any threat to worry about" and then call the people who made the changes nay sayers / doomsdayers / non believers etc
How does it relate to our club
Some perceive that we cannot win the comp with Mc Crone at half
Some receive that we can't win the comp with the RHS centre / wing combination.
Therefore those people suggest preventative action, make some changes and to do it now before we start losing games (that is the perceived thereat) and also the added fear that Mary will stick by a losing combination no matter what as he has history in that area.
Ask your self do you think we can win the comp with the current set up?
If not what changes would you make?
Would you make any changes to a winning side in an attempt to make it better?
Myself and some others believe we can't win the comp as is and would be therefore happy to make some changes even to a winning side in an attempt to make it better and therefore give us a better shot at the title aka as winners.
IMO the possible fear of failure should never be the catalyst for not changing something.

 

[duck]

Old Timer. Taking into account the season thus far. What changes would you make if you were ... erm ... McFoofuncle or whatever you call him?

 

[Old Timer]

Old Timer. Taking into account the season thus far. What changes would you make if you were ... erm ... McFoofuncle or whatever you call him?

Mann in the starting team from rd 1
Would have tried Nona at half after seeing Mc Crone's horrid kicking game
Would have given Field more game time to see what he can do and if he is good enough play him.
Would never have selected Milne on the wing
Would have made changes to the RHS as its defence was aweful and is still an issue.
Swap the wingers to their correct sides.
Would have tried Dufty at FB whilst Dugan was injured.

 

[duck]

Mann in the starting team from rd 1
Would have tried Nona at half after seeing Mc Crone's horrid kicking game
Would have given Field more game time to see what he can do and if he is good enough play him.
Would never have selected Milne on the wing
Would have made changes to the RHS as its defence was aweful and is still an issue.
Swap the wingers to their correct sides.
Would have tried Dufty at FB whilst Dugan was injured.

Then we wouldn't be running 3rd if you were coach.

 

[Old Timer]

Then we wouldn't be running 3rd if you were coach.

You are quire correct we could very well be on top of the ladder.

 

[duck]

We'll never know.

 

[Old Timer]

We'll never know.

For once we could both be correct.

 

[MilanDragon]

OT one thing I like about you is even though I might not necessarily agree with your overall view, there is a sound thought process behind it.

Now those changes you point out are pretty valid, my question is if we win the comp with those combinations would you think McGregor has done the right thing? Including team selection and bench management?

Secondly, what is a successful season for yourself? Obviously winning the comp but is anything else a successful season? What would you have grades as a 'pass' or 'above expectations' in the pre-season? I know there was a thread before the season started asking the same but who has time to go find it.

 

[Crush]

Simple Crush
Some people never see a problem unless the shit hits the fan and when it does don't know what to do about it.
Others perceive the shit is going to hit the fan and take preventative action
Then those that never saw a perceived threat say to those that took the preventative action "why did you do that everything was ok and just because you made a change it doesn't mean there was any threat to worry about" and then call the people who made the changes nay sayers / doomsdayers / non believers etc
How does it relate to our club
Some perceive that we cannot win the comp with Mc Crone at half
Some receive that we can't win the comp with the RHS centre / wing combination.
Therefore those people suggest preventative action, make some changes and to do it now before we start losing games (that is the perceived thereat) and also the added fear that Mary will stick by a losing combination no matter what as he has history in that area.
Ask your self do you think we can win the comp with the current set up?
If not what changes would you make?
Would you make any changes to a winning side in an attempt to make it better?
Myself and some others believe we can't win the comp as is and would be therefore happy to make some changes even to a winning side in an attempt to make it better and therefore give us a better shot at the title aka as winners.
IMO the possible fear of failure should never be the catalyst for not changing something.

So I guess what you are saying is winning the comp is the most important thing at any cost.
So lets say we beleive that with McCrone and current RHS set up we beleive we could finish top 4 but would not be able to challenge say sharks and storm for top 2. So we make changes in a gamble that the new 7 and RHS combination will give us that extra edge to challenge for the premiership.
OK, but what if the new combination does fail, which is highly likely, and we drop out of contention all together and finish out of the eight?
What would the fans say of that decision then?
Do you think they would be forgiving and say ahh well we needed to try something because we were never going to WIN the premiership?
You can see why Mary's conservative can you not? Especially without a contract for next year.
I think alot of our differences of opinions comes down to some people will only accept a premiership as success and others will just take playing good footy and having a crack at the premiership as success.
I think all things considered that I will be over the moon this year if we finish top 4 and still very happy with top 6.

 

[Alec's-saints]

So I guess what you are saying is winning the comp is the most important thing at any cost.
So lets say we beleive that with McCrone and current RHS set up we beleive we could finish top 4 but would not be able to challenge say sharks and storm for top 2. So we make changes in a gamble that the new 7 and RHS combination will give us that extra edge to challenge for the premiership.
OK, but what if the new combination does fail, which is highly likely, and we drop out of contention all together and finish out of the eight?
What would the fans say of that decision then?
Do you think they would be forgiving and say ahh well we needed to try something because we were never going to WIN the premiership?
You can see why Mary's conservative can you not? Especially without a contract for next year.
I think alot of our differences of opinions comes down to some people will only accept a premiership as success and others will just take playing good footy and having a crack at the premiership as success.
I think all things considered that I will be over the moon this year if we finish top 4 and still very happy with top 6.

i think if we finish top 4 we will make the big dance.

 

[Lovemedragons]

So I guess what you are saying is winning the comp is the most important thing at any cost.
So lets say we beleive that with McCrone and current RHS set up we beleive we could finish top 4 but would not be able to challenge say sharks and storm for top 2. So we make changes in a gamble that the new 7 and RHS combination will give us that extra edge to challenge for the premiership.
OK, but what if the new combination does fail, which is highly likely, and we drop out of contention all together and finish out of the eight?
What would the fans say of that decision then?
Do you think they would be forgiving and say ahh well we needed to try something because we were never going to WIN the premiership?
You can see why Mary's conservative can you not? Especially without a contract for next year.
I think alot of our differences of opinions comes down to some people will only accept a premiership as success and others will just take playing good footy and having a crack at the premiership as success.
I think all things considered that I will be over the moon this year if we finish top 4 and still very happy with top 6.

Reaching the best possible position given the squad available and a bit of luck going our way is a measure of success. bad luck such as key injuries can't be helped but ignoring problems which arise in every game, win or lose, and not trying to solve them with viable options is a failure. Time will tell, looking forward to watching.

 

[Old Timer]

So I guess what you are saying is winning the comp is the most important thing at any cost.
So lets say we beleive that with McCrone and current RHS set up we beleive we could finish top 4 but would not be able to challenge say sharks and storm for top 2. So we make changes in a gamble that the new 7 and RHS combination will give us that extra edge to challenge for the premiership.
OK, but what if the new combination does fail, which is highly likely, and we drop out of contention all together and finish out of the eight?
What would the fans say of that decision then?
Do you think they would be forgiving and say ahh well we needed to try something because we were never going to WIN the premiership?
You can see why Mary's conservative can you not? Especially without a contract for next year.
I think alot of our differences of opinions comes down to some people will only accept a premiership as success and others will just take playing good footy and having a crack at the premiership as success.
I think all things considered that I will be over the moon this year if we finish top 4 and still very happy with top 6.

Crush
Winning the comp is the ultimate prize and IMO the 2nd best result is giving yourself the best possible chance to achieve that.
If you are reconciled that you can't win the comp due to some inherent issues but you have some options that can be explored however they have an element of risk attached to them IMO they should be taken.
All said and done at the end of the entire season is finishing 7th all that better than finishing 8th, is finishing 4th all that much better than finishing 6th?
The important thing to know at the end of the season is, exactly where you have to improve and exactly how to do that so as to give yourself an even better shot at the big prize next year.
This year is interesting for several reasons and I am not sure some posters are really aware of it and are merely focussed on this year and are just happy with a high finish.
Next year we have Hunt at 7 and with him I believe we will challenge heavily for the title.
This year we have Mc Crone at 7 and whilst adequate IMO we can't win the comp with him there.
If you have someone who you can't win the comp with for the rest of the year and somebody coming next year who you can win the comp with why the hell do we want to waste the rest of this year by not giving people with great potential a chance to show what they have got and also maybe just maybe give you that special something that can give you an unexpected sniff at the title.
Hunt comes next year and gets injured game 2 who is going to be your half?
The bloke who you persevered with who couldn't win you the title or the bloke you never bothered to see what he can do?
I firmly believe next year has huge potential and we are letting ourselves down by not ensuring blokes that will be needed next year are given encouragement and are blooded this year.
IMO the notion that we will drop down the ladder and out of the 8 if we play Field / Mann at half instead of Mc Crone to me indicates that people must believe Mc Crone is therefore a match winner which is not a position I hold with.
As I said this year is a bit stranger than most with Hunt coming next year and I believe even if we dropped to 7th or 8th spot due to finding out what Dufty, Field, Host really have got, it will be worthwhile and set us up nicely for 2018.
It is a measured risk which will give you some certainty in next years outcome whereas if we just keep doing what we are doing, finish a creditable 4th - 6th and we still know nothing and shake hands with those that leave us of which Mc Crone might be one then we have wasted a golden opportunity.
This is not just about Mc Crone the reasoning I have applied to this scenario also applies to things like the RHS set up, wingers etc that I have posted about previously, unless they are also fixed IMO we can't win the comp but I believe with some changes we might get better outcomes and again increase our knowledge.

 

[ALSGI]

Crush
Winning the comp is the ultimate prize and IMO the 2nd best result is giving yourself the best possible chance to achieve that.
If you are reconciled that you can't win the comp due to some inherent issues but you have some options that can be explored however they have an element of risk attached to them IMO they should be taken.
All said and done at the end of the entire season is finishing 7th all that better than finishing 8th, is finishing 4th all that much better than finishing 6th?
The important thing to know at the end of the season is, exactly where you have to improve and exactly how to do that so as to give yourself an even better shot at the big prize next year.
This year is interesting for several reasons and I am not sure some posters are really aware of it and are merely focussed on this year and are just happy with a high finish.
Next year we have Hunt at 7 and with him I believe we will challenge heavily for the title.
This year we have Mc Crone at 7 and whilst adequate IMO we can't win the comp with him there.
If you have someone who you can't win the comp with for the rest of the year and somebody coming next year who you can win the comp with why the hell do we want to waste the rest of this year by not giving people with great potential a chance to show what they have got and also maybe just maybe give you that special something that can give you an unexpected sniff at the title.
Hunt comes next year and gets injured game 2 who is going to be your half?
The bloke who you persevered with who couldn't win you the title or the bloke you never bothered to see what he can do?
I firmly believe next year has huge potential and we are letting ourselves down by not ensuring blokes that will be needed next year are given encouragement and are blooded this year.
IMO the notion that we will drop down the ladder and out of the 8 if we play Field / Mann at half instead of Mc Crone to me indicates that people must believe Mc Crone is therefore a match winner which is not a position I hold with.
As I said this year is a bit stranger than most with Hunt coming next year and I believe even if we dropped to 7th or 8th spot due to finding out what Dufty, Field, Host really have got, it will be worthwhile and set us up nicely for 2018.
It is a measured risk which will give you some certainty in next years outcome whereas if we just keep doing what we are doing, finish a creditable 4th - 6th and we still know nothing and shake hands with those that leave us of which Mc Crone might be one then we have wasted a golden opportunity.
This is not just about Mc Crone the reasoning I have applied to this scenario also applies to things like the RHS set up, wingers etc that I have posted about previously, unless they are also fixed IMO we can't win the comp but I believe with some changes we might get better outcomes and again increase our knowledge.

Good post, agree 100%
Games with Widdop and Duges out were a massive opportunity wasted imo. We're no wiser for it. Pure speculation but we might have won a couple of the 3 we lost without Nighty at FB and our 6/7 options and learned about our options for the rest of the year and next year.

 

[Dragonsteve2]

Mann in the starting team from rd 1
Would have tried Nona at half after seeing Mc Crone's horrid kicking game
Would have given Field more game time to see what he can do and if he is good enough play him.
Would never have selected Milne on the wing
Would have made changes to the RHS as its defence was aweful and is still an issue.
Swap the wingers to their correct sides.
Would have tried Dufty at FB whilst Dugan was injured.

I agree with your selection views whole-heartedly. When the revolution throws out the current oligarchic administration I will be backing you as Chairman of Selectors.

But with half the season is over and with us playing with greater consistency than at any time since the Bennett era I would now be limiting change. The kicking games of McCrone and Nona are towards opposite ends of the kicking spectrum. McCrone is located towards the POOR end with some better performances placing him towards SATISFACTORY while Nona nudges the VERY GOOD marker with a few lapses back toward SATISFACTORY. Yet I believe it is now too late to change. In any case McCrone has played his part in the team's success. But he must practise his kicking with total diligence to effect some much needed improvement.

I think Nighty's games at FB have shown how good the backline can be with his ability to chime him. I thought with Dugan back Vs the Tigers the backline did not look as potent. Having said that I would love to see Dufty get a run Vs the Eels assuming Dugan is picked for Origin. It would be a one-off and after watching Illawarra last week he looks up for a debut.

But the big deficiency remains the right hand defence. Do you think Mann made a difference last week? I do not understand how ex-centre Mary and Hornby who defended strongly alongside the centres cannot get this sorted. Will Nene work better with Lafai and Nighty guide Euan to make better choices? Or will we be still talking of this weakness next year?

 

[blacksafake]

Crush
Winning the comp is the ultimate prize and IMO the 2nd best result is giving yourself the best possible chance to achieve that.
If you are reconciled that you can't win the comp due to some inherent issues but you have some options that can be explored however they have an element of risk attached to them IMO they should be taken.
All said and done at the end of the entire season is finishing 7th all that better than finishing 8th, is finishing 4th all that much better than finishing 6th?
The important thing to know at the end of the season is, exactly where you have to improve and exactly how to do that so as to give yourself an even better shot at the big prize next year.
This year is interesting for several reasons and I am not sure some posters are really aware of it and are merely focussed on this year and are just happy with a high finish.
Next year we have Hunt at 7 and with him I believe we will challenge heavily for the title.
This year we have Mc Crone at 7 and whilst adequate IMO we can't win the comp with him there.
If you have someone who you can't win the comp with for the rest of the year and somebody coming next year who you can win the comp with why the hell do we want to waste the rest of this year by not giving people with great potential a chance to show what they have got and also maybe just maybe give you that special something that can give you an unexpected sniff at the title.
Hunt comes next year and gets injured game 2 who is going to be your half?
The bloke who you persevered with who couldn't win you the title or the bloke you never bothered to see what he can do?
I firmly believe next year has huge potential and we are letting ourselves down by not ensuring blokes that will be needed next year are given encouragement and are blooded this year.
IMO the notion that we will drop down the ladder and out of the 8 if we play Field / Mann at half instead of Mc Crone to me indicates that people must believe Mc Crone is therefore a match winner which is not a position I hold with.
As I said this year is a bit stranger than most with Hunt coming next year and I believe even if we dropped to 7th or 8th spot due to finding out what Dufty, Field, Host really have got, it will be worthwhile and set us up nicely for 2018.
It is a measured risk which will give you some certainty in next years outcome whereas if we just keep doing what we are doing, finish a creditable 4th - 6th and we still know nothing and shake hands with those that leave us of which Mc Crone might be one then we have wasted a golden opportunity.
This is not just about Mc Crone the reasoning I have applied to this scenario also applies to things like the RHS set up, wingers etc that I have posted about previously, unless they are also fixed IMO we can't win the comp but I believe with some changes we might get better outcomes and again increase our knowledge.

Solid points there OT.
Especially the halves situation,There is no way in hell that there will be anyone given a go next season with Hunt & Widdop there unless there is a injury.If McCrone is re-signed as a back up you can bet your bottom dollar he'll be first cab off the rank otherwise we'll be throwing one of the juniors in cold.

 

[Old Timer]

I agree with your selection views whole-heartedly. When the revolution throws out the current oligarchic administration I will be backing you as Chairman of Selectors.

But with half the season is over and with us playing with greater consistency than at any time since the Bennett era I would now be limiting change. The kicking games of McCrone and Nona are towards opposite ends of the kicking spectrum. McCrone is located towards the POOR end with some better performances placing him towards SATISFACTORY while Nona nudges the VERY GOOD marker with a few lapses back toward SATISFACTORY. Yet I believe it is now too late to change. In any case McCrone has played his part in the team's success. But he must practise his kicking with total diligence to effect some much needed improvement.

I think Nighty's games at FB have shown how good the backline can be with his ability to chime him. I thought with Dugan back Vs the Tigers the backline did not look as potent. Having said that I would love to see Dufty get a run Vs the Eels assuming Dugan is picked for Origin. It would be a one-off and after watching Illawarra last week he looks up for a debut.

But the big deficiency remains the right hand defence. Do you think Mann made a difference last week? I do not understand how ex-centre Mary and Hornby who defended strongly alongside the centres cannot get this sorted. Will Nene work better with Lafai and Nighty guide Euan to make better choices? Or will we be still talking of this weakness next year?

I think Mann is a great player with much more to offer if we give him a regular spot and stop using him to fill gaps.
He reads play well in both attack and defence and he copes well with the physical side of the work load and = improvement from what we had previously.
I am still not sold on Mc Donald in attack and don't think he is particularly good at reading play in defence however I think we have him on the wrong side so I would swap Nighty back to the RHS which is his best for sure and then see how Mc Donald pans out on the left.
No doubt Widdop has been kicking very well to the left and Nighty has benefited from it so maybe being on the left will bring out the very best in Mc Donald.
Not sold on Nighty at FB to me it is stop gap at best and will not cut it when we play the very top sides.
Dugan's strength is his kick return and our power game has been feeding off that so Duges at the back and if he breaks down IMO Dufty or Mann as they have much more pace and footwork.

 

[Dragonslayer]

I think Mann is a great player with much more to offer if we give him a regular spot and stop using him to fill gaps.
He reads play well in both attack and defence and he copes well with the physical side of the work load and = improvement from what we had previously.
I am still not sold on Mc Donald in attack and don't think he is particularly good at reading play in defence however I think we have him on the wrong side so I would swap Nighty back to the RHS which is his best for sure and then see how Mc Donald pans out on the left.
No doubt Widdop has been kicking very well to the left and Nighty has benefited from it so maybe being on the left will bring out the very best in Mc Donald.
Not sold on Nighty at FB to me it is stop gap at best and will not cut it when we play the very top sides.
Dugan's strength is his kick return and our power game has been feeding off that so Duges at the back and if he breaks down IMO Dufty or Mann as they have much more pace and footwork.

The big issue for mine OT is not necessarily the players but McGregor as coach.
The reason I say this is:
A: McGregor is stubborn and doesnt like change. It upsets his balance IMO
B: He relies on old guard becuase he's afraid to admit he was wrong in selections ie: McCrone
C: He's knows he is off contract this year and coaching like it is.
D: Juniors represent too great a risk of failure..see point C
E: Continuously playing players out of position ie: Nene
F: Use of bench and players in general ie: Mann and Field

One hopes if he is re-signed he will relax the A-F above snd start coaching us. ATM i feel we are surviving on pure talent alone rather than inspired coaching leadership.

 

[Crush]

Bump.

 

[SEAT 1A]

Gusty win last night. It was a near loss we had to have.