Ivan Cleary - Smart NRL coach ?

[NIGHTMARE-HITTER]

Now please dont take this as a huge knock at Ivan. He's done bloody well to get this far. Im just seriously worried he may lack the necessary vision to win an NRL title.

Lets compare him to 2 other coaches Murray of NQ and Hagan of Paramatta. I think to compare Ivan to these two is fair as both have arrived at equal stages of the season and both have gone on further for obvivous reasons.

Murrary in Particular through forced injury and Hagan through a bit of vision took punts on their youth to come through and ignite their NRL hopes. Cleary on the other has only blooded one player from memory - a 27 year old Lock/Small seconder rower who they eventually decided didnt fit their picture for the future.

Now I watched a few lions games this year and particular watched a lot of youngsters go from premier league on to NRL for other clubs. In particular I enjoyed watching Paramatta and seeing Krisan Inu and Feleto Matelo in action. Now I had heard a lot of previous hype about these kids and was impressed with their on field ability.

Now Everybody is going to say our juniors arnt ready yet !!! as is always said :roll:

That Day I watched Sonny Fai play like a beast and treat Inu (Now a bonafide NRL superstar at paramatta) like his own private personal rag doll. Fai was nothing but intimadating, you could see his influence and knocking back the Paramatta spirit. time and time again braking the line, off loading and bringing a whole lot of pain in the tackle.

Mateo was completely shut down by the like of Scott Jones , Wade McDade etc. All season Malo Solomona has been flying away over the park, Lesson Ah Mau has been bending back the line, Louie Anderson has probably been playing the best football of his life in the later part of the year. Lui Toiamona has raised eyes time and time again.

I simply believe either the Warriors had Salary restraints or Ivan lacks vision for winning. How can Fai not Debut this year ??? How can he out gun, dominate time and time again and especially over a player like Inu and still not get noticed. Dam even Cooper Vuna has got a ton better at the knights. For a guy with attitude problems he's been their shinning light ! And Anderson has played the best league of his career in the lions !!!

BYRNE, MARTIN, SWANN, KOOPU ????????

This should of been the finals line up against the cowboys(not includding the injuries we suffered at the end) - This would of had a much better chance instead of the peice of wall with drying paint on it they sent to play as Warriors today.

1) W. Mckinnon
2) M. Crockett
3) S. Fai
4) S. Mannering
5) C. Vuna
6) M. Witt
7) G. Rovelli/ L.Hohaia
8) E. Tuimavave
9) G. Gatis
10) S. Price
11) L. Anderson
12) R. Wiki
13) M. Luck

14) N. Fein
15) E. Lauaki
16) W. McDade/ L.Toiamona
17) S. Rapira

Ivan decided that Swann and Koopu, Martin, Byrne etc were the players to go forward. Very Bad Call

 

[Blaze]

I agree somewhat. He should have blooded Fai this season.

However I couldn't have asked for more from Cleary...

We would have made the 8 last year but for the salary cap debacle and we made the top 4 this year. It's building nicely.

 

[Fast Eddie]

You can't really argue with a top 4 spot....but yeah....disagreed with a few of his selections this year.

 

[Dr Crane]

Agree with Blaze.

And we got hit by injuries - not a lot, but critical ones - at the worst time of the year.

 

[Micistm]

Absolutely no problems with Cleary at all. He made the best of what he had player wise, and like all coaches some decisions come off, some don't.
Even the mighty Wayne Bennett proved you can't do much if the players you want/need arent there.

 

[Skinner]

*tsk* *tsk*

He got them to the all important 4th spot with his ordinary team (and they were yesterday
FFS). Whilst most of the players you mention certainly were deservith of a FG run this
year, apart from when they had a mid season slump, it would have been grossly unfair to
stand players down from a winning team.

Unfortunately the players you mention are not in the positions of weakness. Once again
the numbers 6 and 7 are the problem for the Warriors and anyone that thinks that Lance
is the answer to the number 7 is sadly delusional.

Had you mentioned Kelvin Wright N-H, then that would have been a high 5 from me. Sadly,
however, one of the best half backs in the country couldn't get a regular run with the Lions.
He had to be content with leading the Mt Albert Lions around the park, and to victory.

 

[Rich102]

I am not going to bag Ivan, he can only work with what he has got. But this game needed something a little different and instead we got nothing new and too much old.

The Cowboys had a number of first choice forwards out but did they show it? No, the youngsters stepped up.

Did bringing back Martin do anything?

Was there a game plan? It didn't show.

Stats: Tackles/ missed Hitups/meters
Rapira 31/0

 

[AliN]

Yes against some pretty tough odds Ivan and co managed to get us into the Top 4. Fine effort.

My main concern is his continuation with the Ravs/Witt combo.

Let's hope Ravs is made to sit down in the off season and watch reruns over and over asgain of Thurston's games to see how a halfback should play

 

[Mixmasterreece]

We were in a sticky situation for blooding newbies.

We lost sooo many games during one part of the year that we had to get on a winning streak to be in contention (which we did) - then winning each game became so important that we couldnt risk it. We were a victim of our own success in some regards.

If these guy are good enough next year they will get a shot.

 

[Mixmasterreece]

I see a lot of potential in Wright and Locke

 

[Rich102]

I am not going to bag Ivan, he can only work with what he has got. But this game needed something a little different and instead we got nothing new and too much old.

The Cowboys had a number of first choice forwards out but did they show it? No, the youngsters stepped up.

Did bringing back Martin do anything?

Was there a game plan? It didn't show.

Stats: Tackles/ missed Hitups/meters
Rapira 31/0

Somehow half my post got lost. To continue:

Rapira 31/0 10/87
Gatis 14/3 1/12
Price 34/3 11/82
Wiki 15/2 7/49
Koopu 31/3 6/63
Luck 31/3 7/57
Swann 22/1 8/68
Tuimavave 23/2 8/67
Lauaki 17/1 8/57
Fien 26/5 2/17

Sadly Price missed out on his most yards record.

I predicted that Wiki's old legs wouldn't be up to the challenge. His stats prove it. Has been a great player but time now to retire and leave his salary to a younger player.

Completion of sets: Cowboys 33/42 Warriors 17/29.
Woeful, and this, along with Fiens service from dummy half, is the responsibility of the coach. Fien always stands with the ball before feeding it; he should pass from the ground for a faster service.

Positives: We finished in the top 4. We have good strength in props, loose forward and fullback - barring injury.

Negatives: Our salary cap is committed to Henderson and Tate. For mine Tate was a rash move and we would have been better off with spending the money on a half. If he doesn't work out we are committed to his salary for how many years? We only blooded one PL player and he didn't work out. We really can only guess how the PL players will work out in FG. We have real weaknesses in the halves and lack of depth at centre and on the wings.

 

[Rich102]

I forgot to add Crockett's stats:
0 tackles, 1 missed tackle, 8 hitup's for 79 meters, 1 linebreak 2 errors.

 

[ozbash]

i reckon ivan did a good job this season helped by the support from head office.

just missed the 8 last year,
4th this year,,,,

come on 08 !

 

[Martli]

We would have made the 8 last year but for the salary cap debacle and we made the top 4 this year. It's building nicely.

That's where I disagree. I expressed this in another thread: I think we've hit a peak this year due to poor recuiting.

Realisitically, top 8 is still in the picture next year, but with some of the squad choices we've made, I honestly think we'd be making up the numbers sitting somewhere in 8-6.

Ivan's done a great job getting us to the 4 this year, no doubt about that, but I think we've severely hampered our development for next year.

When I think about next year, I think of it like this:

Forwards:
We will probably run the same forward pack as '07 with the possibility of Mannering moving into the 2nd row to make way for a Ropati/Tate centre combination. It's likely that injury will see MAnnering Swtiched between the two positions. Appearances from Fai, Jones, McDade et al. will be necessary to help cope with the departure of Wiki and Price.

On it's day our current forward pack is pretty good and can cut it pretty well. I have doubts about Swann and Wiki next season, and I hope Price can keep up his mammoth performances. I can see Swann possibly moving into a fringe player like Anderson if Fai lives up to his hype, but that's a big if.

Overall I think the pack has a lot of potential next year. Fingers crossed we can find the right dynamic. Looking for a big season from Rapira, Luakai and Tuimavae who are all going to have to step up in 2009.

Hooker:
Letting Gatis go was one of the biggest recruiting mistakes of the season. I have no idea what this Henderson guy is like so i'm not going to make any judgements on him, but I feel we are going to really lack in this position. Fein has been Ordinary this season, and Hohaia seems out of favour. In my opinion, hooker will be a step backwards.

Halves:
I can't realisitcally see anything being different here unless we pull a prodigy #7 out of our asses. I hope like hell that Jerome Ropati is kept away from the #6 jersey, but a Ropati/Witt combination might be our best bet. As far as i'm concerend, Rovelli just does not cut the mustard; he has been far too inconsistant this season and this will not win a premireship. I don't think Lance Hohaia is the answer either; he played pretty average in the lions. Basically, all our halfback options suck. We are not going to fix this problem internally and really needed to recruit here. I'm happy with Witt at 5/8th but can not see us getting a decent 7 this season. Overall: Unfortunately I think we're going to see more of the same next season.

Backline:
Tate is an obvious improvement, but it's a bit like buying a 60" television when you've already got a 40" television: The money spent upgrading could have been spent upgrading the poor recpetion (halves).

I think our first choice backline will be good, but the back end of this season has exposed a few depth worries. McKinnon, Manu and Tate are all obvious selections. Ropati should get one of the centre spots (here's hoping he doesn't get injured) and Mannering's selection will depend on where they play Tate.

Centre is full of options: Tate, Mannering, Ropati and Koopu at a stretch are all capable in this position and we have guys like Constatine Mika, Miguel Start and Patrick Ah Van in premier league that can supply cover if needed.

Wing is a bit shallower. The last few rounds showed how much we miss Manu; he's still an instant selection at #5. After that, Crockett seems to be next in line although I'm still not sold on him personally. Solomona and Ah Van come in next, although I am pretty convinced that Ah Van is not a winger. Tate can cover here, but I think he'll play in the centres. If Manu gets injured, I think wing will be a bit of a worry for us.

I think depth and a poor halves combo will let the rest of the backline down. At full strength we have some good strike weapons. Lose a few key players and we really become exposed. I think the backline should improve marginally.

Overall:
Our weaknesses haven't been fixed and our strengths are going to be marginally stronger. I can't see us doing much better next year.

That's quite a rant. Feel free to critique.

 

[Fast Eddie]

Everyone keeps going on about spending the money we used on Tate on a halfback. Who? I can only remember Kirmorley being off contract, it's all well and good saying "we should have used that money on a half" but really we already have Rovelli and Witt on long deals and there wasn't a standout half we could sign.

 

[Micistm]

Yep...and it's a shame the good things that have come out of this year will be lost with this horror last game. And that is just simply one of those things- a game where just absolutely nothing goes our way(that absolutely shocking 2m+ forward pass has been forgotten now, as it was with Manly's a few weeks ago now also- not that I blame the loss on that obviously). I'm pretty happy with the year, although like all fans a bit down at the moment! I bet I wasn't the only Warriors fan here who got hell at work today!

 

[Martli]

Everyone keeps going on about spending the money we used on Tate on a halfback. Who? I can only remember Kirmorley being off contract, it's all well and good saying "we should have used that money on a half" but really we already have Rovelli and Witt on long deals and there wasn't a standout half we could sign.

Micheal Mognahan came off contract. I'm not sure if we put in an offer for him or not, but he would have been perfect. If we did table an offer then, well, you're right. There was f**k all available.

 

[ozbash]

hey, I know.........

why dont we develope a local kid ?

kelvin wright, hihohohia, issac john, mitchell


na, it'd never work....

 

[Martli]

hey, I know.........

why dont we develope a local kid ?

kelvin wright, hihohohia, issac john, mitchell


na, it'd never work....

Looking like a likely option.

 

[Fast Eddie]

hey, I know.........

why dont we develope a local kid ?

kelvin wright, hihohohia, issac john, mitchell


na, it'd never work....

Weren't you saying that we should have spent our money on a half just yesterday?
:lol: