Josh McGuire - Grandfathergate?

[franklin2323]

you can't force them no....but they are being forced to pick australia even though they have very little chance of playing for the kangaroos just to play for a australian state!

the solution is staggeringly simple...remove australian eligiblity from state of origin....let australians with 2nd tier nation heritage play origin & for their heritage nation....simple

But they aren't. They choose to elect for Aust over the other country. Personally I couldn't dream of playing for any other country no matter the situation. Origin is run by ARL they can make the rules as they seem fit.

Just like if you aren't playing here you can't play SOO. Hell you don't play S15 you can't play for the Wallabies in RU.

 

[Evil Homer]

Nobody can be forced to do anything. But when you've got a system in place that massively benefits and drives players towards one nation then that's wrong, especially when blokes like Uate and Segeyaro are forced to give up their own countries because Aussies are too f**king insular and backwards to realize that international RL is far, far more important for the future of the code than a provincial three-match series between two Australian states.

 

[franklin2323]

Nobody can be forced to do anything. But when you've got a system in place that massively benefits and drives players towards one nation then that's wrong, especially when blokes like Uate and Segeyaro are forced to give up their own countries because Aussies are too f**king insular and backwards to realize that international RL is far, far more important for the future of the code than a provincial three-match series between two Australian states.

Again you say forced to give up :crazy: . It's simple you want to play Origin you play for Australia. Every sport has certain criteria to play for the national side. If Mr Moneybags that owns Salford wants GI. GI can either take it or stay and play test footy.

SBW didn't change. DWZ chose NZ over Australia. Hoffman also. So plenty don't go down that path.

Though what incentive is there to play for the 2nd tier nations? Cost you $30k to play at a WC every 4 years. That's what needs to change for the international game to boom

 

[jim_57]

that'll still force australians with 2nd tier heritage to pick australia to play origin

ANY player who has lived in QLD or NSW at 12 or before is eligible regardless of their nation of choice.

 

[franklin2323]

ANY player who has lived in QLD or NSW at 12 or before is eligible regardless of their nation of choice.

Then what does ARL get for putting on the game? We need more cash into the game for the 2nd tier

 

[Evil Homer]

Again you say forced to give up :crazy: . It's simple you want to play Origin you play for Australia. Every sport has certain criteria to play for the national side. If Mr Moneybags that owns Salford wants GI. GI can either take it or stay and play test footy.

WTF are you talking about? INTERNATIONAL RL IS NOTHING TO DO WITH DOMESTIC RL. Be that Origin, club footy or anything else. How is that so difficult to understand?

Agree with your second point about there being no incentive for players to commit to those nations. The requirement for players to commit to Australia in order to play Origin also plays a huge part in discouraging players from committing to other nations.

 

[franklin2323]

WTF are you talking about? INTERNATIONAL RL IS NOTHING TO DO WITH DOMESTIC RL. Be that Origin, club footy or anything else. How is that so difficult to understand?

Agree with your second point about there being no incentive for players to commit to those nations. The requirement for players to commit to Australia in order to play Origin also plays a huge part in discouraging players from committing to other nations.

The ARL run SOO. Have you seen our forward pack? The Aussie guys wouldn't get a look in if they made it a free for all. The aim is to be a step up from Club footy and get ready for test match footy. It's also to stop our top players potentially going over there keeping the ARL run comp strong.

It's similar to down here with the Wallabies. You can play in any comp in the world you want BUT you need to play domestically to play for them.

We need to get as many heritage players playing for other nations and have incentive for them to stay. NZ have no origin yet still got Hurrell and a few others to commit to them. More tests and no out of pocket expenses for players is a start

 

[Evil Homer]

The ARL run SOO. Have you seen our forward pack? The Aussie guys wouldn't get a look in if they made it a free for all. It's to stop our top players potentially going over there keeping the ARL run comp strong.

It's similar to down here with the Wallabies. You can play in any comp in the world you want BUT you need to play domestically to play for them.

We need to get as many heritage players playing for other nations and have incentive for them to stay. NZ have no origin yet still got Hurrell and a few others to commit to them. More tests and no out of pocket expenses for players is a start

So what you're saying is that the main purpose of SOO is to bribe players to commit to playing for Australia. That's fine if you're a blinkered Australian, but for anyone who cares about international RL then it's totally unacceptable. The point about which comp the players play in is pretty irrelevant to the debate, if Australia want to handicap themselves by only picking players from a certain comp for their national team then that's their problem.

Again, I agree that Origin is far from the only problem when it comes to getting players to commit to these nations. But it is a big problem, and a needless, self-imposed one. I don't think its unrealistic to suggest that we'd instantly get 15-20 high quality players committing to Pacific nations if the need for Australian eligibility was removed from Origin. We're shooting ourselves in the foot because the ARL are too short-sighted to see the bigger picture.

 

[franklin2323]

It's simple ARL run the competition they want SOO to be a selection trial for their national team. If you wish not to be selected for said national team you can't play the game. There's All stars, Dally M etc that anyone can win.

Of course it's unrealistic. Papalli and Milford (Was born in Australia) know Australia has atleast 1 test every year. SOO didn't make Matagi, Havili, Moa, Taumalolo, Feki and Hurrell change to the Kiwis. Yet here they are NZ players now

 

[Evil Homer]

Yeah, and the point is that by taking that approach the ARL are doing the international game a massive disservice.

The likes of Segeyaro, Mead, Uate, Vidot, Milford, Tamou have all publicly stated that they have committed to Australia purely so that they can play Origin. Even Radradra has said that and he's not even eligible for Origin. Who knows how many others there are? Yes, playing for Australia or NZ might be their first choice, but what does it matter in practice? You can't point out the (accurate) facts about money, lack of relevant matches etc but then ignore the fact that the ARL is actively using Origin as a way of enticing players away from developing nations.

 

[Bronco Rob]

It's just baffling to me, Australians obsess over f**king Origin and then wonder why players like SBW and Burgess want to leave the sport and play RU. I just don't understand how these people can be so far wide of the mark when it comes to international RL. We all get it, so why can't they?

You are spot on EH, I have loved Origin but for me now seeing what its doing to the International game my love is waning. As a teenage kid I loved the fierce battle between the Kiwis and the Kangaroos and used to hate the Kiwis with passion but there just then the tests were basically shelved for SOO. I really feel that tests between NZ and Aust could be just as big as Origin if we had of given them the emphasis they deserved years ago.

And if they were then other Internationals would then be more meaningful for fans on the back of these.

 

[jim_57]

Then what does ARL get for putting on the game? We need more cash into the game for the 2nd tier

The majority of players in Origin would still be Kangaroos but it opens it to the likes who have genuine claims to another country and QLD/NSW. Players like Segeyaro, Mead, Uate etc.

 

[franklin2323]

You are spot on EH, I have loved Origin but for me now seeing what its doing to the International game my love is waning. As a teenage kid I loved the fierce battle between the Kiwis and the Kangaroos and used to hate the Kiwis with passion but there just then the tests were basically shelved for SOO. I really feel that tests between NZ and Aust could be just as big as Origin if we had of given them the emphasis they deserved years ago.

And if they were then other Internationals would then be more meaningful for fans on the back of these.

Were there 60% of kids in u16's up that were islander backgrounds though? Pretty much in the last 10 years or so it's gone crazy

 

[hutch]

It's not as simple as allowing players to play origin and for another country. Yes, it's probably better than what we have currently, but stand alone rep weekends are inevitable. Origin will be played on weekends, you would assume island nations will also be playing rep games those weekends, we could have the ridiculous situation of players getting called 'up' to origin from Samoan camp. Why should some players be able to have the best of both worlds? Players such as Kieran foran, Nathan cayless, jack reed could of walked into an origin team but they committed to a different country so they missed out.

I'm not completely against the idea of playing origin and for another nation but it is not the quick fix as some on here suggest. The most important two issues that need to change are regular tests and tournaments for ALL nations and to stop this ridiculous amount of nation swapping. Enforce tighter rules, either one nation for life or a 4 year stand down rule before switching. We should have already put the hard yards in, but it's not too late to start, quick fixes don't work.

 

[franklin2323]

Yeah, and the point is that by taking that approach the ARL are doing the international game a massive disservice.

The likes of Segeyaro, Mead, Uate, Vidot, Milford, Tamou have all publicly stated that they have committed to Australia purely so that they can play Origin. Even Radradra has said that and he's not even eligible for Origin. Who knows how many others there are? Yes, playing for Australia or NZ might be their first choice, but what does it matter in practice? You can't point out the (accurate) facts about money, lack of relevant matches etc but then ignore the fact that the ARL is actively using Origin as a way of enticing players away from developing nations.

Uate aside. The others have played schoolboy level rep footy for their state or country. So they are already in the system before they hit seniors. Its not like they are going to these countries and recruiting them purely to weaken these nations. That's where the problem lies these kids grow up watching Origin like we do. See their mates play here from said mates how great it is.

As I said above 60% of players in u16's, 18's or NYC are of islander heritage. NZ have similar levels. So in some cases you can be eligible for 3 countries. I am sure NRL coaches would rather no players in Origin as it wrecks the season. So not sure who is behind the change other then the player himself

 

[franklin2323]

It's not as simple as allowing players to play origin and for another country. Yes, it's probably better than what we have currently, but stand alone rep weekends are inevitable. Origin will be played on weekends, you would assume island nations will also be playing rep games those weekends, we could have the ridiculous situation of players getting called 'up' to origin from Samoan camp. Why should some players be able to have the best of both worlds? Players such as Kieran foran, Nathan cayless, jack reed could of walked into an origin team but they committed to a different country so they missed out.

I'm not completely against the idea of playing origin and for another nation but it is not the quick fix as some on here suggest. The most important two issues that need to change are regular tests and tournaments for ALL nations and to stop this ridiculous amount of nation swapping. Enforce tighter rules, either one nation for life or a 4 year stand down rule before switching. We should have already put the hard yards in, but it's not too late to start, quick fixes don't work.

Exactly. Regular tests is the way forward. I don't mind someone like Seg playing SOO and for PNG. He did get developed through the QRL system but that alone won't solve the issue

 

[deal.with.it]

There's nothing wrong with the ARL keeping SOO as part of Australia selection.
The problem is morally and ethically selecters picking players who've already commited to another nation.
Equally, its the morals of players to so easily change.

 

[timka4]

I think the best way for origin and international to flow is allow players to play both. If you came to either QLD or NSW before you were 5 years old (or some age around that) and lived in the state your entire childhood, you should be able to play for that state and Australia or the nation you came from originally.

It won't change the nature of origin then, because those players are eligible for origin anyway and it allows them to play for another nation or Aus if they choose to

 

[roughyedspud]

if you look at the last origin series,if the rules where changed to allow players to play origin & a 2nd tier nation it would only actually effect 5 maybe 6 players out of the 40 odd players used....

james mcmanus,a genuine scotsman, has been there or there abouts for NSW for 6+ years,never ever been mentioned as a possible kangaroo.....yet has missed 2 world cups & 3-4 european cups that he could have played for scotland....

letting 2nd tier nations field origin players should be massive PR in those nations...these players should be "poster boys" for development in these nations.

 

[deluded pom?]

The problem is morally and ethically selecters picking players who've already commited to another nation.
Equally, its the morals of players to so easily change.

The players change so readily because they haven't committed to another nation. They may have played for another nation but they sure as hell haven't committed to them.