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Kevin Nash Meltdown

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
I don't think Nash is against small guys in main events, rather he's against them fighting each other in main events.

He has a theory that you need a david and a goliath, not two davids.

In some respect I agree.

But as a whole I can't agree with him enirely. Some great rivalries have been had, even from the era he speaks of, between guys of a similar height.

Nash was always crap, I never saw or understood the hype about him. He always appeared clumsy and lazy in the ring to me. You wouldn't book him for a long fight because people would get bored with him.

For the most part, I agree entirely. I would say though that Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels drew well and weren't big... I would also suggest that really, Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair weren't 'large' wrestlers. They were what, 240-250 lbs?

I think though the last blokes you go to for booking advice or feedback are Kevin Nash or worse, Kevin Sullivan. You can add them to the WCW cancer pile.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,140
Iafeta said:
Shawn Michaels drew well

Only as apart of the 'new' D-X.

Otherwise, his reign was one of the lowest drawing runs in the WWE.

Hart was better, but really his run wasn't all that successful either.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
I think 230 pounds onwards and you can draw well enough. What's John Cena's billed weight?

Given Kevin's WCW background... might as well raise it here as an interesting OT. Watched Goldberg's first WCW match of '98 on Nitro... his use of psychology... dreadful. He was the face and used so many heel moves it was ridiculous. Man he popped big for someone so bad!
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,140
I agree, I think personality counts for more than anything and I believe what Nash is really saying is that when Benoit was made the star of the company that's when it went down hill.

Pretty dumb thing to say when people were selling for Leno & s**t but Nash was just trying to create some controversy.

But yeah, HBK was a terrible draw & Hart doesn't really serve that well as an argument. Although, compared to Nash, he was better. WWE really dropped the ball with Diesel and by the time they got it right with him he was out the door. A shame, when I think pioneers of the Attitude era, people forget Nash was the one flipping the bird and had all these shades of grey.

So many tangents, somebody should go and make an Attitude era thread.

Had to check the Hugh Morrus/Goldberg match out for myself. Definitely see what you're seeing but gee I'd blame Morrus for that. He'd be the ring general and he's got this power wrestler in his first match trading hammer locks. While the leg spot was cool, it's something that should be saved for later matches.

Crowd didn't even pop for the biggest spot of the match.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
I agree, I think personality counts for more than anything and I believe what Nash is really saying is that when Benoit was made the star of the company that's when it went down hill.

Pretty dumb thing to say when people were selling for Leno & s**t but Nash was just trying to create some controversy.

But yeah, HBK was a terrible draw & Hart doesn't really serve that well as an argument. Although, compared to Nash, he was better. WWE really dropped the ball with Diesel and by the time they got it right with him he was out the door. A shame, when I think pioneers of the Attitude era, people forget Nash was the one flipping the bird and had all these shades of grey.

So many tangents, somebody should go and make an Attitude era thread.

Had to check the Hugh Morrus/Goldberg match out for myself. Definitely see what you're seeing but gee I'd blame Morrus for that. He'd be the ring general and he's got this power wrestler in his first match trading hammer locks. While the leg spot was cool, it's something that should be saved for later matches.

Crowd didn't even pop for the biggest spot of the match.

Yup, just rewatched the Morrus match. THe match in particular I was referencing though (just got DVDs on Nitro '98) was his match against Stevie Ray at the Georgia Dome. He jumps Stevie Ray before the bell, and then uses a series of heel moves to buy himself some time. It was just weird. I can't remember how far along he was at that point, can't imagine far because Tony Schiavone called the spear a football tackle and undersold it big time. It was funny rewatching that first Nitro... remembered it being so glam at the time, but it featured such classic matches as The Barbarian jobbing for John Nord lol.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,140
Oh s**t completely missed the mention of '98. My bad.

I saw the Stevie match sometime around last year and yeah Goldberg's actions seemed odd. They really didn't know what they were doing with Goldberg at that point in time, his feud with McMichael was much the same way. Other than that, I remember Stevie sold like a sack of potatoes.

:lol: Good ol' Johnny Nord. One aspect that seems to be forgotten about WCW was how they'd randomly bring in 80s wrestlers for a few matches without any rhyme or reason.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
Bischoff said on Monday Night Wars DVD that from a focus group (I'm wondering if this focus group was similar to the one in season one of 30 Rock being tempted with free pizza?) that they wanted shock and surprise... it just went too far. On that very episode they bought in Rick Martel, and the announcers were all over it as a major shock to the industry... just trying to think, did they sign any significant wrestlers from WWF post Bret Hart???
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,140
Depends on how lenient you want to be with the word.

WCW did bring in two guys who main evented Wrestlemania in Bam Bam Bigelow & Sid Vicious. Of course they also brought Jarrett back after his WWE run and pushed him to the moon otherwise they seemed more concerned about ECW guys and having them fill the mid-cards.

One of my favourite Nash moments...

'This is where the big boys play huh? Look at the adjective, 'play', we ain't here to play!'

:lol: Bet his English teachers had a collective meltdown after that.
 

God-King Dean

Immortal
Messages
46,614
55.jpg
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
Depends on how lenient you want to be with the word.

WCW did bring in two guys who main evented Wrestlemania in Bam Bam Bigelow & Sid Vicious. Of course they also brought Jarrett back after his WWE run and pushed him to the moon otherwise they seemed more concerned about ECW guys and having them fill the mid-cards.

One of my favourite Nash moments...

'This is where the big boys play huh? Look at the adjective, 'play', we ain't here to play!'

:lol: Bet his English teachers had a collective meltdown after that.

haha... yes I remember that adjective comment. Good god, its a verb!

Speaking of ECW dudes, how about poor old Mike Awesome rocking up with the ECW title, and soon after being the Fat Chick Thrilla and that 70s Guy. Those type of gimmicks, while cool, are more for the likes of Disco Inferno, perennial comic midcarders. They had no idea how to build up new credible stars.

Kevin Nash & Kevin Sullivan=Booker to the stars.
 

Utey

Coach
Messages
19,328
My god WCW sucked, I couldn't watch that sh*t for more than 5 minutes flat without getting bored.
 
Messages
2,843
Nash is right, but for the wrong reasons. WWE still books like it did 15 years ago, which you cannot do when you have the little men on top.

You either have to a) book it David vs Goliath style.

or

b) legitimise the product more so by putting over technique and skillsets instead of size and brawn. (see: early ROH)
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
It is quite funny listening to all the armchair experts explain what was wrong with WCW. They have so many things backwards. And in fact, WCW was actually what most people on here wanted. It was more a sport than entertainment, and they gave more time to more wrestlers as opposed to nowadays. What most people are confusing WCW's mistakes with, was when WCW had started losing the wars consistently and they turned to Vince Russo in desperation.

In reality, this was where they lost the war, nowhere else. It wasnt Russo's attitude era, although the production values, and "attitude" style promotions was fresh for the first time. But in reality it was the emerfence of the The Rock, and to a lesser extent Stone Cold Steve Austin that won the wars not anything WCW did. The Rock, Austin and McMahon quite simply were what really made things fresh and interesting and gave them a role. Others like Foley and Undertakers bumps, Hardy's swanton bombs, Christian and Edge emerging etc kept things moving and I think that special mention should be made of the Stephanie McMahon heel turn which was so fresh and entertaining and unexpected at the time that WWF was simply so good. And then they got some key buys back with Guys like Jericho, the Radicalz, The Big Show and the tide turned too far, especially when Ted Turner restructured and had no need for a wrestling show even though WCW was still geting decent ratings and was profitable.

Leaving that aside, what WCW was really famous for was the following:

Cruiserweights - They single handedly forced WWF to hold a cruiserweight title and pushed this division into the spotlight. There World Cruiserweight Unification tournament was revolutionary and an amazing way to give the division the spotlight and put more of an emphasis on the sports than the entertainment. It was even more ironic that one of the titles on the show was the WWF light heavyweight title and McMahon didnt even know. The real WCW had proper cruiserweight matches.

Independents - WCW had a massive roster, and they used to bring in guys from all over the place. WWF survived on ignoring anything that didnt happen in the WWF it was and is a whole seperate universe. Half the reason the Rock got so over was his teasing of the use of Hogan, Flair etc's catchphrases this had never been done before in the WWE and it is a huge part of him getting so over. Often the WWE even ignores their own history. Prime eg from years ago when the Widowmaker Barry Wyndham was promoted as a guy we knew nothing about even though he was a former world tag team champion. Anyway, WCW would not be afraid to bring in and talk about the former mid southern tag team champions or whoever. It wasnt unusual for guys like Sick Boy to pop up and fight for a while and then disappear and pop up later.

Main Event - much is made of Hogan and Co hogging the belt this tied in with the sports theme that was being promoted. You dont give the belt to anyone. Not the guy who is the funniest on the microphone, but the guy who is promoted and seen as the tougher fighter would win the belt. The way the got around the stale issue is that sometimes they would have non world title fights as the main event. For eg i can remember DDP vs Big Poppa Pump being the main event of a pay per view even though neitehr held the title. This was a good thing.

Young talent. Believe it or not, this is where WCW excelled. They were actually the ones that promoted the young wrestlers to the hilt. at one stage, WWF really was nearly finished. They had virtually no one. Just the undertaker was their only star, and maybe Michaels and Austin, The Rock The WWF only pushed young talent, because there was literally no one else. They were lucky to get some good ones at this time. WCW was always known for having the best young talent. With a huge WCW roster, this is what WCW excelled at. Though they didnt have the creative team soap opera style story telling for them that WCW did. They sort of through them in and let them sink and swim on their own. It was not until Guerrero, Benoit, Saturn and someon else who i cant remember off hand, might have been Jericho left that the WWE started to level or even lead the field on this issue.

The other important difference is that WCW was never prefaced on Face vs Heel. It was common to see face vs Face and Heel vs Heel fights. this is in line with the Sports vs Sports entertainment theme, which i would say is wcw's real niche and legacy. Back in the day, and even before the day, the Smarks trumpeted WCW (or NWA) for this very reason. It looks strange today, but in reality, faces should be prepared to fight other faces to fight their way up. WWE has taken that away nowadays. everyone gets a turn at winning a tag title, most get and intercontinental title and plenty even get the world title. MOre often than not former titlists become whipping boys. And most results are reversed week in week out. In fact 90 percent of the time the WWE requires Pay per view winners to lose the week before on Raw. WCW was more a sport, with a clearer pecking order. A guy had to work his way up by winning matches and staying over as opposed to waiting his turn and staying "fresh".

The whole thing really was a completely different setup to what is portrayed nowadays about the WCW which is really the Russo Era, where WCW copied (ironically) the WWE.
 

Valheru

Coach
Messages
19,817
It is quite funny listening to all the armchair experts explain what was wrong with WCW. They have so many things backwards. And in fact, WCW was actually what most people on here wanted. It was more a sport than entertainment, and they gave more time to more wrestlers as opposed to nowadays. What most people are confusing WCW's mistakes with, was when WCW had started losing the wars consistently and they turned to Vince Russo in desperation.

In reality, this was where they lost the war, nowhere else. It wasnt Russo's attitude era, although the production values, and "attitude" style promotions was fresh for the first time. But in reality it was the emerfence of the The Rock, and to a lesser extent Stone Cold Steve Austin that won the wars not anything WCW did. The Rock, Austin and McMahon quite simply were what really made things fresh and interesting and gave them a role. Others like Foley and Undertakers bumps, Hardy's swanton bombs, Christian and Edge emerging etc kept things moving and I think that special mention should be made of the Stephanie McMahon heel turn which was so fresh and entertaining and unexpected at the time that WWF was simply so good. And then they got some key buys back with Guys like Jericho, the Radicalz, The Big Show and the tide turned too far, especially when Ted Turner restructured and had no need for a wrestling show even though WCW was still geting decent ratings and was profitable.

What ultimately lost them the ?war? was the AOL/Time Warner merger and the fact that their executives despised wrestling, wanted it off their station and put the company up for sale. Had this not happened it is entirely possible WCW would still survive albeit playing 2nd fiddle to WWE.

The reasons they were losing the ratings were because they had no idea what to do after their single good idea (the NWO) ran its course. They failed to keep the product fresh and in their whole run they only produced 1 fresh main event talent (Goldberg). There were others there but politics prevented the likes of Jericho, Benoit, Raven, Saturn etc. from carrying the company. Once they realised their mistakes the horse had bolted and they hired Russo to try and become more edgy like the WWF.

Cruiserweights - They single handedly forced WWF to hold a cruiserweight title and pushed this division into the spotlight. There World Cruiserweight Unification tournament was revolutionary and an amazing way to give the division the spotlight and put more of an emphasis on the sports than the entertainment. It was even more ironic that one of the titles on the show was the WWF light heavyweight title and McMahon didnt even know. The real WCW had proper cruiserweight matches.

This is true. The cruiserweights were a breath of fresh air in the 95-98.

Main Event - much is made of Hogan and Co hogging the belt this tied in with the sports theme that was being promoted. You dont give the belt to anyone. Not the guy who is the funniest on the microphone, but the guy who is promoted and seen as the tougher fighter would win the belt. The way the got around the stale issue is that sometimes they would have non world title fights as the main event. For eg i can remember DDP vs Big Poppa Pump being the main event of a pay per view even though neitehr held the title. This was a good thing.

The WCW main event scene was an abomination throughout its run. It?s not about ?giving the belt to anyone?, it?s about having the right people carry the company and producing quality wrestling in the main event. In 1996/97 when WCW was winning one of the things that the WWF did better was their main events, they were quality matchups and good pay offs for the storylines but they lacked the mid and under card to produce a compelling show top to bottom. WCW was the opposite, constantly they had 4 star and above matches son PPV but never in the main event. Their main events were always well hyped but were lacklustre in both the quality of the wrestling and the eventual payoff.

Young talent. Believe it or not, this is where WCW excelled. They were actually the ones that promoted the young wrestlers to the hilt. at one stage, WWF really was nearly finished. They had virtually no one. Just the undertaker was their only star, and maybe Michaels and Austin, The Rock The WWF only pushed young talent, because there was literally no one else. They were lucky to get some good ones at this time. WCW was always known for having the best young talent. With a huge WCW roster, this is what WCW excelled at. Though they didnt have the creative team soap opera style story telling for them that WCW did. They sort of through them in and let them sink and swim on their own. It was not until Guerrero, Benoit, Saturn and someon else who i cant remember off hand, might have been Jericho left that the WWE started to level or even lead the field on this issue.

We all know WCW had the talent there but they were held back politically. They were never given a chance to excel because Hogan, NASH etc. wouldn?t give up their spots. The WWF on the other hand brought through and made main eventers out of guys such as Austin, Rock, HHH, Kane, Foley, Edge etc. and the list goes on.

The other important difference is that WCW was never prefaced on Face vs Heel. It was common to see face vs Face and Heel vs Heel fights. this is in line with the Sports vs Sports entertainment theme, which i would say is wcw's real niche and legacy. Back in the day, and even before the day, the Smarks trumpeted WCW (or NWA) for this very reason. It looks strange today, but in reality, faces should be prepared to fight other faces to fight their way up. WWE has taken that away nowadays. everyone gets a turn at winning a tag title, most get and intercontinental title and plenty even get the world title. MOre often than not former titlists become whipping boys. And most results are reversed week in week out. In fact 90 percent of the time the WWE requires Pay per view winners to lose the week before on Raw. WCW was more a sport, with a clearer pecking order. A guy had to work his way up by winning matches and staying over as opposed to waiting his turn and staying "fresh".

A lot of what you say in this paragraph appears to be describing WWE 2012 to WCW. That is not a fair comparison and we are all aware of the current short falls of the WWE with hot shotting the title etc.

I will say though that face vs. Heel is the very fabric of wrestling psychology. Of course there has been some stellar face/face and heel/heel matches/programs but the very essence of pro wrestling is good vs. Bad. What is good and what is bad was actually skewed in the attitude era and we had heel personas being faces and vice versa.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
Unless you're going to have a pure wrestling promotion (which can be done, I doubt to a massively popular level though), you need to have a good face v heel paradigm IMO. Heels are supposed to beat the faces down, you're supposed to hate them for it, and you're supposed to pay to be there when the heel gets taught a lesson. Rinse, repeat the cycle. People want conflict, they want tension, they want surprise and suspense, they want to be transported away to a place where for 2 hours a week they get to hope the underdog superhero comes through to beat the cheating no good heel.

There was a LOT OF GOOD with WCW. Even in say '98 and even into '99 were there good pretenses. I loved the Malenko and Benoit v Saturn and Raven feud in '99. I loved watching Nitro in '98 and Ultimo Dragon beat the protege Kaz Hayashi in an excellent match (this was a low mid card feud they never exploited as an example). I loved Jim Neidhart turning up and taking on Flair for Bret Hart's honour. I loved DBS rocking up and going toe to toe with Mongo. Booker T's TV Title run was awesome. Benoit getting put over by DDP was great... Chris Jericho was magic as a comic heel. Eddie and Jericho's brief tag team tenure was awesome. DDP was epic. But somehow all that good stuff was never really exploited. Before you know it, Hart is doing nothing with Neidhart and DBS (it was funny looking back how infrequently he was even used) and then Hart becomes a Hogan lackey, despite it being clear cut post Montreal that he should have been been the jilted babyface... Jericho went nowhere.... Guerrero and Jericho were broken up... Benoit was held back ... THe Four Horsemen were just as quickly disbanded as they were reunited. Before you know this intense Mongo/DBS feud just... stops. Ultimo Dragon is not used at all to bring through the Oriental talents. It became the same rubbish at the top. Heck, you even look at Sting... he is epically hot at the end of '97, they book his match with Hogan in the worst possible manner, he pops down from the rafters in early '98 but then in match he has about 3 matches where as a clear babyface he takes an easy 3 count with the ref knocked out (isn't that a heel spot, and why bury your hottest talent?) Even looking at the nWo... how often did Scott Norton get to wrestle? The bloke was an arm wrestling champion and a massive talent in Japan. What about Curt Hennig? Epic turn on Flair to first break up the Horsemen, but then after a feud with Flair, he fades back to obscurity in the nWo. I WANTED to see Hogan, I WANTED to see Nash, I just wanted to see them have competently booked competition.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,140
One of the best summations I've seen on why WCW failed with the fans Iafeta.

Pretty much agree with the entirety of the post although I will say I found the Raven/Saturn vs. Benoit/Maleno vs. Mysterio/Kidman feud convoluted & lacking the attention to detail it needed for it to work.

It really didn't do any of those wrestlers any favours. Even Mysterio/Kidman who should have benefited being out of the Cruiserweight division were portrayed as an undeserving & unwilling team.

It'd be interesting to see somebody fantasy book WCW in '99 and show how good it could have been. Because it was still very watchable until around the Great American Bash that year.
 

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