Kiwis vs Samoa 19th Oct 25

[Manu Vatuvei]

I don’t follow… what’s your measure for popularity?

Tonga’s last 4 games v Kiwis have all attracted crowds of over 20k. Games pre ‘17 were rare to start with and when they did happen, attendance was terrible.

Unless you’re saying there’s been a greater than commensurate drop in popularity for other teams? Otherwise Tonga alone has driven an increase in international footy interest…. they’re getting more fixtures than they used to, and they’re far better attended.

In general all I hear is people bemoaning the irrelevance of international RL so I find that quite jarring when compared to people saying how huge Tonga/Samoa have been for the international game. Overall it seems pretty stagnant to me and if anything people are less engaged with the Kiwis than they used to be. I haven’t broken down crowd or viewership numbers over the years although the failure to sell out yesterday and the modest crowd at the 2023 Pacific Championships final come to mind as examples of disappointing engagement in test footy - particularly by Kiwis fans.

There’s certainly no arguing against the proposition that Tonga and Samoa games are better attended than they used to be.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

Play the game in Christchurch and it sells out easily. This time of year in the upper north island you’re probably getting a bit of fatigue from footy being available all year

 

[Manurewa_Marlins]

Honestly, you play that game on a Saturday at 5pm, it sells out.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

In general all I hear is people bemoaning the irrelevance of international RL so I find that quite jarring when compared to people saying how huge Tonga/Samoa have been for the international game. Overall it seems pretty stagnant to me and if anything people are less engaged with the Kiwis than they used to be. I haven’t broken down crowd or viewership numbers over the years although the failure to sell out yesterday and the modest crowd at the 2023 Pacific Championships final come to mind as examples of disappointing engagement in test footy - particularly by Kiwis fans.

There’s certainly no arguing against the proposition that Tonga and Samoa games are better attended than they used to be.

So Kiwis specifically, rather than international footy as a whole?

Because as you say, Tonga and Samoa games are well attended these days. Both also recently had standalone tours of England for the first time ever, and the Ashes is shaping up to be really well supported.

Overall, I think the test game is the best it’s ever been. Far from perfect obviously, but still the best its been.

Agree the Kiwis seem to be bucking the trend though. Others have made good points about fractured support, venues and scheduling and its probably a mixture of all that, but a WC win would turn that around very quickly.

 

[Matua]

So Kiwis specifically, rather than international footy as a whole?

Because as you say, Tonga and Samoa games are well attended these days. Both also recently had standalone tours of England for the first time ever, and the Ashes is shaping up to be really well supported.

Overall, I think the test game is the best it’s ever been. Far from perfect obviously, but still the best its been.

Agree the Kiwis seem to be bucking the trend though. Others have made good points about fractured support, venues and scheduling and its probably a mixture of all that, but a WC win would turn that around very quickly.

We're NZers, so I think the state of the international game in the context of the state of our game is worthy of dicussion.

NZ is supposed to be the third biggest market in league and it can't sell out a small stadium for two teams packed with NZers.

I don't have an issue with it being more competitive at the PI teams level. But, for me, international league is less supported now in NZ than it has been in my lifetime. It's like we've robbed Peter to pay Paul.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

We're NZers, so I think the state of the international game in the context of the state of our game is worthy of dicussion.

NZ is supposed to be the third biggest market in league and it can't sell out a small stadium for two teams packed with NZers.

I don't have an issue with it being more competitive at the PI teams level. But, for me, international league is less supported now in NZ than it has been in my lifetime. It's like we've robbed Peter to pay Paul.

Of course; that’s fair enough. It’s a Kiwi thread after all too.

But Manu’s earlier post suggested (at least how I interpreted it) that the international game as a whole had regressed, so I was clarifying that piece only.

As I've since mentioned, I agree re: Kiwis support specifically, and I agree with your point re: fractured support as well. And IMO, the move away from mid-year tests has had an impact too.

 

[Matua]

Of course; that’s fair enough. It’s a Kiwi thread after all too.

But Manu’s earlier post suggested (at least how I interpreted it) that the international game as a whole had regressed, so I was clarifying that piece only.

As I've since mentioned, I agree re: Kiwis support specifically, and I agree with your point re: fractured support as well. And IMO, the move away from mid-year tests has had an impact too.

 

[Blair]

It's a pity France really dropped off, and South Africa never really developed, with league. We need the old Great Britain too, the one that would beat us every other time or so.

I get that Tonga and Samoa are very competitive with us these days but the flaw there is that most, if not all, of their players don't live there or, worse, never have or haven't since they were children.

If you played for the Kiwis and Kangaroos, and you lined up against Tonga or Samoa, it would be like playing your old friends from school.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

I get that Tonga and Samoa are very competitive with us these days but the flaw there is that most, if not all, of their players don't live there or, worse, never have or haven't since they were children.

Yea no denying that’s a downer, but a reflection of the game - and life – in the islands. People move away for better opportunities in sport and everything else.

A handful of the ones that stay might be lucky enough to attract a scholarship like Katoa did, but otherwise that’ll be it for them.

Very likely some weapons running around the islands right now, locally born and bred like Eli but without the means to move. So unless they’re spotted by a club or school with deep pockets, we’ll never seen them.

 

[Blair]

Yea no denying that’s a downer, but a reflection of the game - and life – in the islands. People move away for better opportunities in sport and everything else.

A handful of the ones that stay might be lucky enough to attract a scholarship like Katoa did, but otherwise that’ll be it for them.

Very likely some weapons running around the islands right now, locally born and bred like Eli but without the means to move. So unless they’re spotted by a club or school with deep pockets, we’ll never seen them.

Yep, I hope they're not left behind.

On another note, the Kangaroos are currently well behaved in London. They look to be having
a ball, which bodes well for the green and gold brand. They just need a serious opposition!

 

[shinobi]

Honestly, you play that game on a Saturday at 5pm, it sells out.

Samoa v Tonga sounds like will be close to a sellout. We keep making excuses but maybe Kiwis are just crap bandwagon supporters. Even that game we smashed Australia 30-nil barely got a crowd. Its dire stuff and not sure what the NZRL can do about it other thsn ti really lobby to get Origin eligibility changed. If we had players like Ponga and Weekes in our team it would boost interest. Reality is origin gets the most casual eyeballs and the way Aussies talk up the game in the media turns these players into household names.

 

[Manurewa_Marlins]

Samoa v Tonga sounds like will be close to a sellout. We keep making excuses but maybe Kiwis are just crap bandwagon supporters. Even that game we smashed Australia 30-nil barely got a crowd. Its dire stuff and not sure what the NZRL can do about it other thsn ti really lobby to get Origin eligibility changed. If we had players like Ponga and Weekes in our team it would boost interest. Reality is origin gets the most casual eyeballs and the way Aussies talk up the game in the media turns these players into household names.

NZRL don't have a wonderful social media presence for one, and let's face it, when it comes to interest, the Island players and media teams just do it better.

You're right, that crowd for the final a couple years back was pretty dismal. They need to do a better job promoting matches and their players.

That said, Saturday night at 5pm or Sunday at 6pm, in Auckland...I know which one gets a better crowd. If it had to be Sunday, moving kickoff to 4pm, it gets a better crowd. 21k they sold for it, they sell it out if the time is better.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

That said, Saturday night at 5pm or Sunday at 6pm, in Auckland...I know which one gets a better crowd. If it had to be Sunday, moving kickoff to 4pm, it gets a better crowd. 21k they sold for it, they sell it out if the time is better.

Yea apparently the Sunday slot was to avoid clashing with other events like Spring Racing. I have zero interest in racing but seems to be absolutely massive over there, and the Everest and Caulfield Cup both ran on Sat arvo.

So I kinda get it; TV numbers (in Aus at least) for the league would’ve probably suffered if they had clashed. But the flip side is they hurt crowd numbers here instead.

In saying that, the '23 final was on a Sat at 5pm and from memory, pretty good weather too (?). No idea what else the Tron had going that arvo.

 

[Matua]

Kiwis are just crap bandwagon supporters.

Not sure that's true, the Warriors are the biggest bandwagon out there. They gobbled up fairweather fans and importantly media and are barely better than their historic norm. Not being in NZ I'm not sure what the normal promotion of the matches are like so I can't comment on that.

NZRL don't have a wonderful social media presence for one, and let's face it, when it comes to interest, the Island players and media teams just do it better.

I don't know how we rate wonderful social media presence but they post frequently on their instagram page and often interesting stuff (that was how I knew our Samoans were staying with us, they were all over the content). Conversely, not being Tongan or Samoan I have no clue what their social media presence even is.

I may be the wrong generation to assess social media influence though.

In all honesty, I don't understand why a Saturday match v a Sunday match would move the needle that much in terms of attendance? If fans want to see a league test would it matter that much? Not saying you're wrong, just wondering what the reasoning is?

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

We keep making excuses but maybe Kiwis are just crap bandwagon supporters.

Again this is purely "vibes based" (which is necessary to an extent because there is no one true measure of "interest") but my sense is this wasn't the case previously. International RL has always had its issues but I don't remember such concern about the lack of engagement by Kiwis fans prior to the 2017 defections.

This could also be solipsism based on my own interest waning slightly, but I don't think it's only that.

Matua's point about robbing Peter to pay Paul really sums it up. What really happened is that we took the existing Kiwi and Kangaroo sides (or at least their wider pool of eligible players) and divided them up between Tonga and Samoa. We didn't introduce any new player pool into the mix, it just got shared between "heritage" teams while diluting the Kiwi and Kangaroo teams. It seems obvious to me why this wouldn't excite everyone that much, particularly not the supporters of the diluted teams.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

In all honesty, I don't understand why a Saturday match v a Sunday match would move the needle that much in terms of attendance? If fans want to see a league test would it matter that much? Not saying you're wrong, just wondering what the reasoning is?

There’s a couple key reasons for mine:

6pm kick off means getting home 8.30-9.00pm for most, which is pretty late for a school night. Obviously not so late as to put everyone off but for casual fans - the difference between 15k vs 20k+ in the stands - IMO it would definitely be an impediment. I know it would be for me if my kids were younger.

And culturally, attending footy on a Sunday just isn’t an option for many Pacifica supporters and NZRL acknowledged as much in the week leading up to the game. Again, not everyone, but enough for a visible difference in crowd numbers. Some wouldn't have even watched it on TV because it was Sunday.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

The idea of a guy from West Auckland using the word solipsism, a word I had never encountered in my 40+ years on this earth - having done a communications degree and worked in the media -is outrageous.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Again this is purely "vibes based" (which is necessary to an extent because there is no one true measure of "interest") but my sense is this wasn't the case previously. International RL has always had its issues but I don't remember such concern about the lack of engagement by Kiwis fans prior to the 2017 defections.

This could also be solipsism based on my own interest waning slightly, but I don't think it's only that.

Matua's point about robbing Peter to pay Paul really sums it up. What really happened is that we took the existing Kiwi and Kangaroo sides (or at least their wider pool of eligible players) and divided them up between Tonga and Samoa. We didn't introduce any new player pool into the mix, it just got shared between "heritage" teams while diluting the Kiwi and Kangaroo teams. It seems obvious to me why this wouldn't excite everyone that much, particularly not the supporters of the diluted teams.

But the point that Matua makes, and god bless him for it, is that we should be getting in behind our Test sides and valuing international football. Should that change because a few guys chose to play for Tonga/Samoa? I don't see how it's so much robbing Peter, when Peter still has a strong 17 that wants to play for New Zealand. And now Paul can play and compete, and has a significant passion for it. I don't think the analogy works.

I was a passionate Kiwis fan pre 2011 or so, and became less so because of fixturing rather than who was available or who wasn't. I could care when internationals were mid-year, and they threw in a World Cup on the back of them, but not when I had to wait until October for the first glimpse.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

Just seen reports Ronnie did his ACL in the game. Poor dude, thats properly shit

BREAKING: Sharks confirm huge injury blow as Bulldog also set for sideline stint

BREAKING: Sharks confirm huge injury blow as Bulldog also set for sideline stint

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

But the point that Matua makes, and god bless him for it, is that we should be getting in behind our Test sides and valuing international football. Should that change because a few guys chose to play for Tonga/Samoa?

Much respect to all true fans (I try to be one for the most part) but all I can say is that my interest waned when it became apparent that major demographics of NZ league players were likely to become unavailable to us going forward.

I think a lot of my fascination with international league over the years has been sort of based on "imagine if the Kiwis could actually get their full strength team together". Like at one point any Kiwi in the NRL was likely to make the Kiwis, then that progressed to the Kiwis mostly being "good" NRL players, and then for the last decade or so you've had tons of elite Kiwi NRL players. To finally get to that point, where the NRL was absolutely stacked with Kiwi players, and then revert back to a heap of those guys becoming unavailable just felt like such a regressive step to me that a part of me honestly gave up at that point.

I don't see how it's so much robbing Peter, when Peter still has a strong 17 that wants to play for New Zealand. And now Paul can play and compete, and has a significant passion for it. I don't think the analogy works.

For every "Kiwi-Samoan" or "Kiwi-Tongan" player gained by Samoa or Tonga, we lose that exact player. What we lose and what they gain in terms of players is literally equal.

Of course you can weaken 2 elite teams to make 4 strong teams and it's arguable that this makes for a more interesting competition. Doesn't change the fact that you're cumulatively improving the player pool of those two teams by the same amount as you've cumulatively weakened the player pool of the other two teams.

I also think the fact that you can still piece together hypothetical good Kiwi/Aussie 17s sort of misses the point, because in reality there are still going to be heaps of players unavailable and you end up going down the depth chart - just like the bad old days when the Kiwis might have had 17 decent players, but were picking blokes out of reserve grade if a few guys got injured.

I was a passionate Kiwis fan pre 2011 or so, and became less so because of fixturing rather than who was available or who wasn't. I could care when internationals were mid-year, and they threw in a World Cup on the back of them, but not when I had to wait until October for the first glimpse.

Fair enough. Funny thing I've just realised is the last ANZAC test was 2017. I think that's just a coincidence, but it didn't help that the 2017 defections coincided with the last mid-season Australia v NZ test.