Kobe a Laker for life

[ByRd]

You've left out the most crucial part of your earlier post, which was:

By including that caveat in your initial comment, you've effectively said but for his injuries, he would have shot 50% from the field this season. All I've done is highlight the absurdity of that statement. If you didn't mean the original statement, why have you spent the last few posts defending it? I'm not going to waste anymore time on this, you can keep back-tracking all you like but enough's enough.

Right now - Durant is better. Ever measurable statistic I know of (Advanced +/-; John Hollinger's PER to name two) indicates this. Again this is right now. Not 2007 Kobe or 2004 Kobe - right now. As for the future part - we're not living in a time capsule, I'd rather have the 21 year old (thanks for the correction ;-)) who is sure to continue improving than the soon to be 32 year old for the next 4 years.

As for the other numpty in this thread - where have I bagged Kobe?? Or found ways to bag him??

Stats is not always a good way at looking at things, i would have Kobe over Durant right now, no one is talking in 10 years or whatever, i would also take Kobe over the next 3 years with this current Lakers line up as he knows how to win now and has proven it.

He is a leader of this side and although you didnt really bag Kobe, saying Durant is better is just an insult to the man. Maybe after Durant does it for a couple more years and proves himself in the playoffs but right now, no way.

Durant is having a good season (like you said better stats season) but stats can be manipulated and pulled any way to prove a point, Kobe is the more complete player and for you to think he isnt a top 5 player is ridiculous.

 

[Ridders]

You've left out the most crucial part of your earlier post, which was:

By including that caveat in your initial comment, you've effectively said but for his injuries, he would have shot 50% from the field this season. All I've done is highlight the absurdity of that statement.

So in other words you mis-interpreted my statement.

At no time did I say Kobe, as thought it were fact, would shoot 50% from the field. I said that given his start, he was on pace to shoot that for the season. We'll never know due to injuries

If you didn't mean the original statement, why have you spent the last few posts defending it?

To try and emphasise to you why this isn't just another typical Kobe season. If his style of play had remained the same this season as it has been in previous seasons, I would agree with your point that his start to the season was more an outlier rather than the mean.

But his style of play has changed this season, which is why I think using previous season stats as the standard assumption was incorrect. The fact that Kobe's been playing hurt for alot of this season doesn't help

Right now - Durant is better. Ever measurable statistic I know of (Advanced +/-; John Hollinger's PER to name two) indicates this. Again this is right now. Not 2007 Kobe or 2004 Kobe - right now. As for the future part - we're not living in a time capsule, I'd rather have the 21 year old (thanks for the correction ;-)) who is sure to continue improving than the soon to be 32 year old for the next 4 years.

PER :lol:

The same measurement that has Greg Oden as being better than Dirk. I'll pass.

I firmly believe that Durant is yet to reach Kobe's level. My opinion of course. Don't get me wrong, it won't be long before KD does surpass him, but imo he still has to fix up some flaws first.

But your right. This is getting tiresome. Lets settle it by saying that, like everytime, your wrong and I'm right ;-)

 

[McLovin]

MJ earning 30 mill in his final years...Kobe earning 30 mill in his final years...

Nice

Jordan's Bulls contracts before that massive deal are dwarfed in comparison to Kobe's...He was playing for less than the MLE iirc...

 

[andrew057]

So in other words you mis-interpreted my statement.

At no time did I say Kobe, as thought it were fact, would shoot 50% from the field. I said that given his start, he was on pace to shoot that for the season. We'll never know due to injuries

How was he on his way to shooting 50% though?

From the start of the season til the end of December he was shooting 48% from the field. He's never shot over 47% from the for an entire season, yet after shooting 48% from the field, he was on pace to shoot 50?

 

[Ridders]

From the start of the season til the end of December he was shooting 45% from the field...

Wah?

He shot 50.6% for all of November and 47.9% for all of December. How did you get to that figure?

iirc he fractured his finger mid-December.

He's never shot over 47% from the field in his past 13 season, yet after shooting 45% from the field, he was on pace to shoot 50? Right

Style of play...I'm not going to get into this again

 

[Ridders]

Wah?
He shot 50.6% for all of November and 47.9% for all of December. How did you get to that figure?

Forget it

 

[andrew057]

Forget it

Sorry for the edit, but it still remains he was shooting 48% before the injury, I cant fathom how you seem to think he was on his way to shooting 50% because he was focusing on his post game.

 

[Tiger Hawk]

So in other words you mis-interpreted my statement.

At no time did I say Kobe, as thought it were fact, would shoot 50% from the field. I said that given his start, he was on pace to shoot that for the season. We'll never know due to injuries



To try and emphasise to you why this isn't just another typical Kobe season. If his style of play had remained the same this season as it has been in previous seasons, I would agree with your point that his start to the season was more an outlier rather than the mean.

But his style of play has changed this season, which is why I think using previous season stats as the standard assumption was incorrect. The fact that Kobe's been playing hurt for alot of this season doesn't help



PER :lol:

The same measurement that has Greg Oden as being better than Dirk. I'll pass.

I firmly believe that Durant is yet to reach Kobe's level. My opinion of course. Don't get me wrong, it won't be long before KD does surpass him, but imo he still has to fix up some flaws first.

But your right. This is getting tiresome. Lets settle it by saying that, like everytime, your wrong and I'm right ;-)

* you're ;-)

PER is flawed, but it gives a useful overview. Advanced +/- is another I mentioned, why silent on that one? Unfortunately for Kobe fans, it's not just one of these metrics, but all of them. I agree stats aren't everything but the only possible area I can think of where Kobe greatly surpasses Durant is his experience. Am I saying Durant is the best, or perfect, or better than Kobe when Kobe was at his peak? Absolutely not. But right now, I just can't think of how Kobe is superior overall and every shred of independent, objective evidence backs that up.

One final comment - can you clearly demonstrate, without just using casual remarks and vague waffle, how Kobe's style of play has changed significantly (your words), i.e point to his shot mix, usage etc etc? Or is it just rhetoric?

 

[Ridders]

* you're ;-)

PER is flawed, but it gives a useful overview. Advanced +/- is another I mentioned, why silent on that one? Unfortunately for Kobe fans, it's not just one of these metrics, but all of them. I agree stats aren't everything but the only possible area I can think of where Kobe greatly surpasses Durant is his experience. Am I saying Durant is the best, or perfect, or better than Kobe when Kobe was at his peak? Absolutely not. But right now, I just can't think of how Kobe is superior overall and every shred of independent, objective evidence backs that up.

One final comment - can you clearly demonstrate, without just using casual remarks and vague waffle, how Kobe's style of play has changed significantly (your words), i.e point to his shot mix, usage etc etc? Or is it just rhetoric?

Adjusted +/- is even more of a joke than PER. I understand that all these advanced stats are nice and all but, as ByRd said, stats can be manipulated to prove your point.

FMD the Birdman and Andre Miller also have higher adjusted +/-'s than Kobe, so I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Roy Hibbert has a higher adjusted +/- than Tim Duncan. Hmmmm

Your the stat boy. Is there a stat that would show that that this season Kobe initiates significantly more of his offense with his back is to the basket as opposed to from face-up on the perimetre? I generally thought that's something you would figure out from, you know, watching games..

 

[Tiger Hawk]

Yep, you do figure it out from watching, and as you're the resident Laker expert - break his offence down for me. Prove how his game has changed "significantly this year". You keep referring to it, prove it. Or as I said, is just more vague waffle?

I suppose this is another of those things like how shooting 48% through the first two months means he was on his way to shooting 50% for the season. Oh, except for those injuries. :lol:

Oh, and how is adjusted +/- more of a joke than PER? Do you understand it? For the last time, stats aren't everything, but if people choose to ignore reams of information to blindly cling to preconceived notions, I'm at a loss. One of these metrics in isolation alone won't prove anything. But using them collectively and in support of observations paint a reasonable picture, which is all they're intended to do. That picture, from my perspective, means that Kobe isn't in my top 5 players. Remember - you and the other numpty are the ones who jumped on me for giving my opinion!

Ultimately you have your opinion, and I know I'm not going to change it. I haven't been trying to - just merely trying to explain how I've formed my opinion. But it is fun to see you'll go so far as to blatantly ignore and even deride in-depth statistical analysis that is used by pretty much all 30 teams in the NBA just to disparage a view I've formed! Hilarious! :lol:

 

[Ridders]

Yep, you do figure it out from watching, and as you're the resident Laker expert - break his offence down for me. Prove how his game has changed "significantly this year". You keep referring to it, prove it. Or as I said, is just more vague waffle?

I suppose this is another of those things like how shooting 48% through the first two months means he was on his way to shooting 50% for the season. Oh, except for those injuries. :lol:

Oh, and how is adjusted +/- more of a joke than PER? Do you understand it? For the last time, stats aren't everything, but if people choose to ignore reams of information to blindly cling to preconceived notions, I'm at a loss. One of these metrics in isolation alone won't prove anything. But using them collectively and in support of observations paint a reasonable picture, which is all they're intended to do. That picture, from my perspective, means that Kobe isn't in my top 5 players. Remember - you and the other numpty are the ones who jumped on me for giving my opinion!

Ultimately you have your opinion, and I know I'm not going to change it. I haven't been trying to - just merely trying to explain how I've formed my opinion. But it is fun to see you'll go so far as to blatantly ignore and even deride in-depth statistical analysis that is used by pretty much all 30 teams in the NBA just to disparage a view I've formed! Hilarious! :lol:

How is “initiates significantly more of his offense with his back is to the basket as opposed to from face-up on the perimetre” vague waffle? It's quite a clear observation about Kobe's play this year. But jeez, if you consider that waffle, then from now I'll just defer all my basketball opinions to you since my observations are obviously not on your level.

I was wrong for calling it a joke, I'll just say that I don't care much for them. And I'm not jumping on you for giving your opinion, I'm just giving you mine. If you can't handle that, then fine.

I don't hate all stats, just calculations (like PER, adjusted +/-) that people use to define players. They are not intended to do so but you wont believe how many people use PER as some sort of definitive calculation of a player, which kills me.

"only possible area I can think of where Kobe greatly surpasses Durant is his experience" - Ummm, ever heard of ball handling or creating for others? Since you don't consider an opinion valid unless some stat is attached to it, 82games.com does a pretty of highlighting this. Kobe's passing stats are quite clearly superior to KD's. Kobe has a passing rating off 8.2 while KD's is 3.2. But wtf. That's something I could have figured out from just watching both of them play.

I also think Kobe is just a much better (and smarter) defender, but I guess to you, that would just be considered "vague waffle" since I don't have a stat to back it up.

 

[Tiger Hawk]

How is “initiates significantly more of his offense with his back is to the basket as opposed to from face-up on the perimetre” vague waffle? It's quite a clear observation about Kobe's play this year. But jeez, if you consider that waffle, then from now I'll just defer all my basketball opinions to you since my observations are obviously not on your level.

The SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THIS YEAR part is vague and thus far is unsubstantiated. You're stating it as fact with absolutely no shred of evidence to prove it, and additionally passing it off as an attempt to prove your earlier assertion that Kobe was on track to shoot 50% from the field. That was a lazy remark, you've been called out on it and now you're desperately trying to justify it by spewing this crap. At times he's operated more in the post than he in previous years (like, say when Gasol and/or Bynum are out.....), but his overall offensive game isn't SIGNIFICANTLY different from last year - unless your definition of "significantly" is akin to your equating shooting 48% through two months to being on track to shooting 50%.

I suppose I might be getting caught up in "significant" - what is significant to you? Can you quantify your claim in any way? What are you claiming - 50% of his possessions begin with his back to the basket? 60%? More? Less? Or was it just a flippant remark?

I was wrong for calling it a joke, I'll just say that I don't care much for them. And I'm not jumping on you for giving your opinion, I'm just giving you mine. If you can't handle that, then fine.

I don't hate all stats, just calculations (like PER, adjusted +/-) that people use to define players. They are not intended to do so but you wont believe how many people use PER as some sort of definitive calculation of a player, which kills me.

"only possible area I can think of where Kobe greatly surpasses Durant is his experience" - Ummm, ever heard of ball handling or creating for others? Since you don't consider an opinion valid unless some stat is attached to it, 82games.com does a pretty of highlighting this. Kobe's passing stats are quite clearly superior to KD's. Kobe has a passing rating off 8.2 while KD's is 3.2. But wtf. That's something I could have figured out from just watching both of them play.

I also think Kobe is just a much better (and smarter) defender, but I guess to you, that would just be considered "vague waffle" since I don't have a stat to back it up.

See the word "greatly" in my previous comment? I've leave you to connect the dots there.

 

[Ridders]

The SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THIS YEAR part is vague and thus far is unsubstantiated. You're stating it as fact with absolutely no shred of evidence to prove it, and additionally passing it off as an attempt to prove your earlier assertion that Kobe was on track to shoot 50% from the field. That was a lazy remark, you've been called out on it and now you're desperately trying to justify it by spewing this crap. At times he's operated more in the post than he in previous years (like, say when Gasol and/or Bynum are out.....), but his overall offensive game isn't SIGNIFICANTLY different from last year - unless your definition of "significantly" is akin to your equating shooting 48% through two months to being on track to shooting 50%.

I suppose I might be getting caught up in "significant" - what is significant to you? Can you quantify your claim in any way? What are you claiming - 50% of his possessions begin with his back to the basket? 60%? More? Less? Or was it just a flippant remark?

*sigh*

Since your stat boy, I asked you earlier if there was a stat that would show whether a player initiates more of their offense with their back to the basket or face-up. You then said "Yep, you do figure it out from watching".

So since we've both agreed that it's a qualitative issue, why are you asking for a %? What a dumb thing to say. Your need to quantify everything is ridiculous.

Watching Lakers games this season, I have made the observation that Kobe, due to physical decline and his game slowing down, has spent significantly more time (compared to previous seasons) with his back to the basket on offense, which is understandable given that he can't beat players of the dribble as much as he used to. I'm not saying he plays in the low post full stop. I'm not saying he doesn't play on the perimetre anymore.

But alas, in your world my opinion's and observations must be wrong because there is no available stat to quantify it.

See the word "greatly" in my previous comment? I've leave you to connect the dots there.

Kobe does greatly surpass KD in ball handling and creating imo. Even the stats you love so much back that up. But again, you shouldn't need stats to tell you that. It's something you should be able to pick up when watching each of them play.

 

[Tiger Hawk]

*sigh*

Since your stat boy, I asked you earlier if there was a stat that would show whether a player initiates more of their offense with their back to the basket or face-up. You then said "Yep, you do figure it out from watching".

So since we've both agreed that it's a qualitative issue, why are you asking for a %? What a dumb thing to say. Your need to quantify everything is ridiculous.

Watching Lakers games this season, I have made the observation that Kobe, due to physical decline and his game slowing down, has spent significantly more time (compared to previous seasons) with his back to the basket on offense, which is understandable given that he can't beat players of the dribble as much as he used to. I'm not saying he plays in the low post full stop. I'm not saying he doesn't play on the perimetre anymore.

But alas, in your world my opinion's and observations must be wrong because there is no available stat to quantify it.

No, your opinions or observations are wrong simply because, well, they're wrong. The fact you can't support your outlandish claims with anything meaningful other than resorting to calling me "stat boy" and other nonsense just reinforces that. My need to quantify things comes from your continued insistence on talking sh*t. You point to his SIGNIFICANTLY increasing post game as evidence as to how he was "on his way to shooting 50%". It's since been established that he wasn't on his way to shooting 50%, irrespective of injuries or anything else, and his post game hasn't significantly increased. I've got the evidence but alas, I didn't make the claims so I'm not going to do you any favours.

Kobe does greatly surpass KD in ball handling and creating. Even the stats you love so much back that up. But again, you shouldn't need stats to tell you that. It's something you should be able to pick up when watching each of them play.

Durant plays with a pretty decent up and coming point guard in Westbrook, and is used almost exclusively as a scorer and isn’t required to create for others as much as Kobe – there’s also a lack of other reliable scorers on his side. Having said that, his assist numbers have improved since entering the league, and I suspect they will continue to improve as the players around him improve and/or his role changes. Kobe, on the other hand, is a) the de facto point guard for the Lakers (Fish is a spot up shooter these days), handling the ball more often than Durant, and b) Kobe has a lot of handy players around him that can finish off his passes – Gasol and Bynum both shoot about 55% for their careers. Odom, Artest & Fish aren’t slouches either. Roughly 39% of Kobe’s baskets are assisted whereas over 51% of Durant’s are assisted - hopefully you can figure out what that means. But, surely you’d know all this from, you know, watching the games and all….

To be clear, I'm not stating I think Durant is Kobe's equal as a creator or passer. But I think I've explained why I consider Kobe does not "greatly exceed" Durant either (incidentally - his assist / ball-handling numbers have also declined from past years, relevant as this discussion is centred around who's better now). Ultimately, this is but one facet of both their games, and it was never really a Kobe vs Durant thing for me, despite your insistence on diverting the topic that way.

 

[Tiger Hawk]

Watching Lakers games this season, I have made the observation that Kobe, due to physical decline and his game slowing down, has spent significantly more time (compared to previous seasons) with his back to the basket on offense, which is understandable given that he can't beat players of the dribble as much as he used to. I'm not saying he plays in the low post full stop. I'm not saying he doesn't play on the perimetre anymore.

I originally glossed over this so I sincerely hope it was only a typo - Kobe rarely plays from the low post. Kobe typically operates from the high post, elbow & foul line extended areas when he goes to his post game - not the low post. But again, surely you'd know this from watching the games....;-)

 

[Ridders]

No, your opinions or observations are wrong simply because, well, they're wrong. The fact you can't support your outlandish claims with anything meaningful other than resorting to calling me "stat boy" and other nonsense just reinforces that. My need to quantify things comes from your continued insistence on talking sh*t. You point to his SIGNIFICANTLY increasing post game as evidence as to how he was "on his way to shooting 50%". It's since been established that he wasn't on his way to shooting 50%, irrespective of injuries or anything else, and his post game isn't significantly increasing. I've got the evidence but alas, I didn't make the claims so I'm not going to do you any favours.

Now who's jumping on who for giving their opinion.

Well you are stat boy, shown by your need to have everything quantified. The fact that you even wanted me to put the word "significantly" into %'s shows this.

FFS I didn't say that his increasing post game was evidence that he would shoot 50% from the field. I said that given this style of play, I thought it would be wrong to use previous season stats as the standard assumption, which is what you were doing at the time

Durant plays with a pretty decent up and coming point guard in Westbrook, and is used almost exclusively as a scorer and isn’t required to create for others as much as Kobe – there’s also a lack of other reliable scorers on his side. Having said that, his assist numbers have improved since entering the league, and I suspect they will continue to improve as the players around him improve and/or his role changes. Kobe, on the other hand, is a) the de facto point guard for the Lakers (Fish is a spot up shooter these days), handling the ball more often than Durant, and b) Kobe has a lot of handy players around him that can finish off his passes – Gasol and Bynum both shoot about 55% for their careers. Odom, Artest & Fish aren’t slouches either. Roughly 39% of Kobe’s baskets are assisted whereas over 51% of Durant’s are assisted - hopefully you can figure out what that means. But, surely you’d know all this from, you know, watching the games and all...

*entering stat boy mode*

Your opinions or observations are wrong simply because, well, they're wrong.

-Kobe has a passing rating of 8.2; KD's is 3.2
-Kobe's assist/bad pass ratio is 3.4; KD's is 2.5
-Kobe's AST/48 is 6.2; KD's is 3.3

So going by my stats, Kobe greatly exceeds KD in creating

-Kobe's "hands ratings" is 19.5; KD's is 10.1.

So Kobe also greatly exceeds Durant in terms of ball handling.

*exit stat boy mode*

 

[Ridders]

I originally glossed over this so I sincerely hope it was only a typo - Kobe rarely plays from the low post. Kobe typically operates from the high post, elbow & foul line extended areas when he goes to his post game - not the low post. But again, surely you'd know this from watching the games....;-)

My bad.

I have the bad habit of saying low-post whenever referring to the post in general.

 

[Ridders]

On reflection, I've said some petty things and the stat boy thing was unnecessary (although you do love to quantify things).

Time for me to step away. I don't even know what we are arguing about anymore.

Till next time stat boy ;-)

 

[Tiger Hawk]

Once again, I don't have to have everything quantified - only bullsh*t embellishment and vague generalisations that you make - such as:

Don't forget that he was on his way to shooting 50% from the field this season before his fingers became mangled.

Categorically disproved:

a. before he was injured he was shooting under 50%
b. he's a career 46% shooter - there's over 1,000 previous games of evidence to support this.

In an attempt to support this ludicrous hypothetical, you go on to say:

You fail to note that the major difference between Kobe's previous season and this season is that he's spent significantly more time working in the post, hence getting better % looks.

Ignoring the fact that you've not pointed to one scrap of evidence to support this for a minute. The critical assumption here is that you equate Kobe's post game with getting better % looks. Possibly true if he worked from the block (or low post), where he'd be operating from inside of about 8-10 feet. But as I've said (and you have agreed with), Kobe mostly operates from the high post and elbow. These areas of the floor are substantially the same areas that he's always taken a lot of his two point shots from. Yes, he's creating some of those shots in a different way (his post up percentage is around 20%, up a whopping 6% - or roughly 2 possessions per game!), but they're still the same shots, from the same distance. So your assumption that his post game would lead to better % looks is also incorrect.

So, he wasn't on his way to shooting 50% before his injury and he hasn't significantly increased his play from the post. He's also not shooting better % looks, just creating a small portion of his shots differently. Just give it up already.

For the record - Kobe is hands down one of the best mid-range shooters in the league. He's also got more ways of creating a shot for himself than just about any other player, and his post game is fantastic. I've never disputed any of that

Til next time sh*t talker ;-)