Let's clear the 15 degree misconception

[sanjane]

Now, alot of you here think that the 15 degree rule was made to suit Murali. Let this thread be the point of reference for the most on-going argument on this forum. I encourage this thread to be made a sticky...

Let's have constructive discussion on this forum. Please, no argument along the subcontinent vs white line, or the Murali vs Australia line. That path has been thread enough.

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Now, a quick summary of what happened before the rule change:

Initially the degrees of flexion was set as follows: 5 degrees for spinners, 10 degrees for medium pacers, 15 for quicks

Then Murali was reported for his doosra, which was later to be found to be 10 -15 degrees. However, the biomechanic experts disagreed with this law, saying that the arm speed of spinners, especially someone like Murali is comparable to a quickie.

The ICC did tests at the Champions Trophy later, and studying footage of previous bowlers revealed that over 90% of bowlers were over this limit. I think only Ramnaresh Sarwan and (maybe) Shane Warne had minimal straightening.

They then accepted the biomechanits' recommendation for everyone to have a uniform 15 degree flexion level.

A very good article on this, by someone who knows what he is talking about (I'm sure many of you will focus on the fact he's from India, but if you guys don't want to change for the better, I can't really do much else...) is here: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/columns/content/story/136043.html

Particularly important points are copied here for your convenience:

Bishan Bedi and Michael Atherton publicly, and many players and umpires off the record, continued to believe that he chucked. Even a film made of Murali bowling in a rigid brace didn't convince the doubters.

There were three problems with this, each formidable enough to make angels back off. One, the unequal allowances were unfair to slow bowlers. Two, they were impossible to implement. Three, the scientists on whose researches these guidelines were allegedly based, disagreed with them. For example, the unequal chucking allowances were justified by the involuntary straightening caused by the stress of bowling at higher speeds. One of the scientists objected, saying that Murali's arm speed equalled that of many fast bowlers. He also went on to recommend a common standard: all bowlers should be allowed to straighten their arms over 15 degrees.

What revelation wrought this miracle? What new scientific insight goosed the ICC into preparing to abandon its recent chucking guidelines? The clincher, it turns out, was the news that a survey of the bowlers in the ICC Champions Trophy revealed that 99 per cent of all bowlers chucked. This isn't so different from earlier declarations that 90 per cent of all bowlers chuck, so the turnabout must have to do with the names named rather than the general conclusion. It turns out that under the current definition of a legitimate delivery, such pillars of the bowling establishment as Glenn McGrath, Shaun Pollock, and Jason Gillespie chuck. They straighten their arms in excess of the current 10-degree allowance for fast bowlers.

Abruptly the world's cricketing establishments (and sanctimonious ex-cricketers and pundits) were brought face to face with the alarming reality that the records of their heroes were as thoroughly derived from their dartboard skills as Muralitharan's. More so, if anything, because it was only Murali's doosra that was outlawed: his customary deliveries were deemed to come in under the five-degree limit for spinners. In contrast, Australia's fast bowling firm, Messrs McGrath, Gillespie & Lee soared above the 10-degree limit with routine deliveries.


When Murali pointed this out later, the spokesperson for Cricket Australia, deaf to irony, huffed on about the complex science behind the findings and the unfairness of accusing great bowlers of chucking! There's never been a more emphatic vindication of a player in the history of cricket and after years of being singled out and persecuted, Murali is entitled to say so. He and Ranatunga stand out as resolute, principled men; most of their critics look like ambushed opportunists, ready to turn on a dime. For example, after his recent swipe at Murali, you would expect the Australian Prime Minister, John 'Loose Lips' Howard, to either denounce McGrath and Gillespie as chuckers or apologise to Murali for being an ignorant pol on a hair trigger. I haven't heard a peep out of him.

why 15 degrees? Geoffrey Boycott thinks the limit's been raised and extended to slow bowlers to include Murali. This is so wrong it's perverse. Murali doesn't need 15 degrees: after remedial work, his arm only straightened in the region of 10 degrees while bowling the doosra. A cynical Sri Lankan could more plausibly argue that the ICC stretched the rules to fit the fast men in and then tossed a bone to the others by giving them equal latitude.

Another article: McGrath and Gillespie back new law http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/australia/content/story/141718.html

(mcGrath said)"It already shows that people like myself and Shaun Pollock who people say have pretty sound actions, that we have a bit of a flex of 10-12 degrees."[/unquote]

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And I'll also just like to add, that I believe that if you look for it, you can easily find that a bowler seems to be chucking. But more often than not, he isn't. Whether it's Murali or Malinga or Vaas or Shoaib or Lee or McGrath or Pollock or Afridi or Shoaib Malik etc... Only legspinners, because of their action seem to be omitted from this group...



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So, basically my points, in regards to Murali are:



* the rule was not changed for him anymore than it was for McGrath, Pollock and co. And in fact, it was probably changed for Murali less than it was for them

* the initial rule was stupid anyways, and this current one could well be
* he doesn't throw, and in any case, the ICC deems that he's legal for no other reason than their opinion (and now fact) that he is, and so just keep enjoying his magic.



Pls, only constructive replies. No need to get into a race-oriented war here.

 

[spider]

IMO - the degree would not have been investigated if Murali had not come onto the scene.

It was once all this began that other bowlers were looked at and in more detail.

Then Murali was reported for his doosra, which was later to be found to be 10 -15 degrees. However, the biomechanic experts disagreed with this law, saying that the arm speed of spinners, especially someone like Murali is comparable to a quickie.

This seems to be an assessment catered around a specific individual - this is from the experts, not the writer.

 

[[furrycat]]

No ball.

 

[lockyno1]

Rules would not have been changed if Murali didn't have a throwing action.

 

[ozbash]

if murali hadnt have been the top spinner would there have been the outcry re his 'doosrsa' ?

the doosra has been around for a long time, murali perfected it and then the squeals began.

i feel murali has been victimised here by the top cricketing nations, " if we cant beat him on the paddock, we'll beat him in the protest room"

 

[Bumble]

* the rule was not changed for him anymore than it was for McGrath, Pollock and co. And in fact, it was probably changed for Murali less than it was for them

Fmd...:roll::roll:

 

[MKEB...]

Here is an idea Sanjane, try watching some clips of SL V NZ at the basin reserve. Watch his doosra, then try telling me uncatigorically that he is not chucking or going past the 15 degrees.

I dont think that you could.

 

[NK Arsenal]

It should be a zero degree limit for everyone.

 

[MKEB...]

All that rule has done has paved a way for all cricketting nations to recruit any shotputter they want as a bowler. As it just so happens, the only nations taking advantage for this are the subcontinental nations.

 

[Red Bear]

nice to see you return snajane to congraulate some great cricketers on their careers...
oh wait

 

[El Diablo]

chucky should be banned

 

[Twizzle]

why 15 degrees? Geoffrey Boycott thinks the limit's been raised and extended to slow bowlers to include Murali. This is so wrong it's perverse. Murali doesn't need 15 degrees: after remedial work, his arm only straightened in the region of 10 degrees while bowling the doosra. A cynical Sri Lankan could more plausibly argue that the ICC stretched the rules to fit the fast men in and then tossed a bone to the others by giving them equal latitude.

in a laboratory perhaps, but as recently reported by Martin Crowe, his action out in the middle when he is trying to spin the ball, seems to be different.

Abruptly the world's cricketing establishments (and sanctimonious ex-cricketers and pundits) were brought face to face with the alarming reality that the records of their heroes were as thoroughly derived from their dartboard skills as Muralitharan's. More so, if anything, because it was only Murali's doosra that was outlawed: his customary deliveries were deemed to come in under the five-degree limit for spinners. In contrast, Australia's fast bowling firm, Messrs McGrath, Gillespie & Lee soared above the 10-degree limit with routine deliveries.

And as Daryl Hair has just witnessed, the decisions are heavily weighted in favour of certain teams. Despite being No2 in the world the sub continent teams wanted him gone, they generally get what ever they want imo.

As for comparing Murali to McGrath and Gilespse, your'e kidding right ?

A very good article on this, by someone who knows what he is talking about (I'm sure many of you will focus on the fact he's from India, but if you guys don't want to change for the better, I can't really do much else...) is here:

how is it a change for the better, if it was not changed, Murali couldn't bowl.

Do you seriously believe that the rules were not changed to suit Murali, or is this just blind faith because you are a fan of his. (no need to answer that)

This is not just about Murali, who apprears to be a nice bloke.

The whole matter has been very poorly dealt with. Testing some one in a lab, then being gullible enough to assume that is how he will bowl in a game, is just plain dumb.

The rules were over 100 years old and didn't really need to be changed, until Murali came along.

I have 2 questions for you.

1) Would this rule change have come about if Murali didn't play ?

2) Would this rule change have come about if it were some one like Daniel Vetori, who is not a sub continent player ?

 

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

It should be a zero degree limit for everyone.

Sanjane, you may be a racist bastard, but you have proven what ive been tryin to say ever since the rule change.

and NP, make that rule and only Sarwan can bowl in world cricket. FFS read the article before you post.


also re: twizzle; i agree with the rule change, but there needs to be more stringent methods of testing. Wasnt the bowlers form the CTrophy tested on video footage of the match? Why can video's of murali be tested, and that would tehn disspell all theories which are similar to twizzles.

 

[hineyrulz]

When Murali was tested he bowled 10-15kms slower than he doe's in a game. until they test him under playing conditions this debate will continue to rage.

 

[NK Arsenal]

oh wait on did you mean "chucking"

 

[El Diablo]

seek help

 

[Sam_the_man]

Once the subcontinent gained control of the ICC it paved the way for *edit* like murli and for race based rule changes.

 

[Panther_Daz]

Michael Slater faced Murali in the nets a few years ago in Galle. Murali's arm was in plaster so he couldn't bend it at all. Slater said that what he faced in the net's that day was incredible. He was spinning them a metre and bowling awesome doosra's all at the speed he bowls in the games.

 

[NPK]

Was the plaster over the elbow? Was his arm bent or straight when the plaster was put on?

 

[JJ]

Here is an idea Sanjane, try watching some clips of SL V NZ at the basin reserve. Watch his doosra, then try telling me uncatigorically that he is not chucking or going past the 15 degrees.

I dont think that you could.

what gets me is on tv I can pick the doosra just about eevry time - it looks a lot more like he's throwing (whether he is or not, I am not sure - and it seems impossible to have a reasonable debate here - but his wrist is increbible and does an an element of optical illusion to it all). BUT, no test batsmen (anywhere) seem able to pick it...