Level below Jim Beam Cup

[burley griffin]

Does anyone think there is room for a semi professional cross-Sydney competition below the Jim Beam cup?

The comp would feature the big/rich junior league A grade teams.

The reason i am suggesting it is because the Manly A-Grade comp has virtually been destroyed over the last few years because of the gap that has emerged between the semi-professional clubs, and the others. My club, belrose, has recruited former first grade and premier league players, paying some players bigger salaries than they would get in premier league. Other clubs engaging in this practice (to my knowledge) are Cromer, Valley and Beacon Hill (who this year don't have a team).

Basically, cos these clubs had premier league and first grade players playing for them, it drove out the people who wanted to play socially, and who weren't quite up to the standard.

That's why, i reckon if there was a level below JB Cup, you could have your big, semi-professional A-Grade outfits from clubs that aren't necessarily backed by leagues clubs (and don't have enclosed grounds etc) in that division. Thus more people would be willing to join A-Grade outfits because they know that they aren't going to come up against the likes of Josh Stuart, Gary Larson and Mark Soden.

 

[mono_mal]

there has been discussion of the Jim Beam Cup expanding to a 2 division competition and this would allow a lot of the smaller, yet still semi-professional, clubs to play in the 2nd division.
clubs like Belrose though i feel could easily take the step to Jim Beam as they already most likely have a salary that would reach the Jim Beam cap of 150 000.
asquith seem to be the only club in the Manly A-Grade who have expressed genuine interest in joining the Jim Beam Cup at this stage though.
so yes I definately think there is room for another comp below Jim Beam level and feel a great way would be to implement a second division and if calls for a third division Jim Beam Cup comp with promotion/relegation.

 

[Jeffles]

There are a lot of bigger A-Grade clubs in Sydney that could fill the gap. Think Asquith and maybe Guildford too.

 

[booeycollector]

I think it would be great to see Jim Beam division 2 but I really cant see it happening.

 

[mono_mal]

if the Jim Beam Cup is to further expand into country areas there is easily enough clubs that could be involved.
currently there is the 12 Jim Beam Cup teams and clubs who could make the transition into a second division comp or join the top level include:
St Marys - easily have the cash to field a Jim Beam Cup team and perhaps competition expansion would encourage them to rejoin the comp.
Guildford - the same as St Marys although the pokie tax may prohibit them joining for a number of years until they have their finances in order.
Belrose - strong club who's playing strength would currently rival a number of the Jim Beam Cup teams.
Asquith - have expressed interest in joining the comp and also have league club backing.
North Sydney Bears - have also expressed interest in joining the comp and could use the team as a reserves team to thier pl side (eg.Newtown).
Camden Rams - have leagues club backing and have previously expressed interest in joining the Jim Beam Cup.
Arncliffe Scots - have leagues club backing and have previously played at Second Division level.
Wyong Roos - currently playing in the Newcastle competition though would be a true premiership contender if they were to join the Jim Beam Cup. have leagues club backing and a number of former first grade players.
Newcastle Wests - extremely strong country team with significant leagues club backing.
Lakes United - "
Marconi - new to the Parra competition and have plans to join the Jim Beam Cup in coming years. Have the support of Italy Rugby League and the Marconi soccer club.
Seven Hills Demons - now secured backing from the Blacktown City soccer club and have plans to join the JBC in coming years.
Illawarra Wests - strong leagues club backing, good playing roster and have previously played in the Metro Cup (Illawarra Red Devils)
Collegians - strong leagues club backing, good playing roster (Jason Ferris current captain coach) and have expressed interest in joining the Jim Beam Cup.
Wests Ashfield - has been rumoured to be interested in fielding a side playing out of Lidcombe Oval. have previously competed in the Metro Cup.
Listed above is just 15 teams that could make the transistion. There are many more teams that would also be capable of competing at such a level and we only need 20 teams to be able to have a two division Jim Beam Cup competiton.

 

[Jeffles]

When you get into country areas it starts getting expensive. Also, you are moving into areas where money in RL is tighter than it is here.

Sydney alone could start a second level JBC.

 

[the spoon]

the group 6 which is home to both narellen and camden clubs has always been a big comp with strong teams but is struggling for enough teams of a high standard due to teams ie camden thilmere and this year the oaks buying first grade and reserve grade players for huge cash and in doing this other clubs due to being hammered all the time have dropped out or only fielding reserve grade teams or heading into other comps, for camden to go into the jim beam cup would take away more players from the area and weaken a very proud comp.

 

[bazza]

Do you guys think it would be worthwhile having a Sydney wide open age comp with a number of divisions?

That way you would be able to have ultra-competitive clubs playing against each other and the more social teams able to play against similar standard teams.

The advantages I see is that the competition could be more even and that lesser players would stay in the game as they won't have to worry about getting belted every week.

The disadvantage would be that there would be more travel - but this shouldn't be too bad as this is open age and not junior

 

[mono_mal]

I feel a open age comp with a divisional stucture spread across Sydney would be beneficial and encourage higher player numbers though simply would never happen as the current junior leagues would never agree.
What may be achievable though is seperating the semi-pro clubs from the purely amateur clubs. The semi-pro clubs from each competition should be forced to enter there firsts team at least in the semi-pro comp (could work by creating divisions within the Jim Beam Cup).
The clubs could still be involved with their junior leagues though this would help alter the current gap between the top and bottom teams within the A-Grade competitions.
The A-Grade comps would remain the same though would now become purely amateur competitions which would encourage many more players to play the game at more of a social level. A level that league has now lacked and that can now only really be found in the North Sydney competiton.

and spoon, you have contradicted yourself in what you are saying.
you comment that many clubs have left the group 6 comp due to the current playing standard of the likes of Camden, Thirlmere and The Oaks then say by these clubs joining the Jim Beam Cup it would weaken your competition.
wouldnt this simply mean the clubs that have previously been forced to leave the comp could now remain and the competition would now be a lot more level across the board?
i understand what you are saying though if these larger clubs are made to still enter teams in the group 6 comp it would simply make the the smaller teams a lot more competitive and in turn strengthen the comp which is currently dominated by the large, big spending clubs.

 

[PB]

You have to be careful taking teams from country leagues as they are already stretched for numbers.

Also the tooheys Cup in Wollongong, neeeds to be left alone. It is hanging in at the moment. Along similar lines to what has been mentioned, Port, Dapto and Thiroull have the cash, while the others do it a bit tougher. but the Illawarra faithful love their league and support their footy well. Indeed Group 6's other problem is that players come down to play in the Tooheys League.

But if it changed and the bigger clubs were taken out of Wollongong and into sydney, i think it would only hamper the game in the Illawarra.

 

[MEE]

go you mighty belrose eagles

 

[metroman]

Asquith have entered the 2004 Parramatta Cup.

 

[Nfed]

Fantastic ! That will bring some life to Parra A grade and put Wenty to the test. Are the Bulls still in it this year? Where will Asquith play their home games? Any other surprises for that comp this year?

 

[metroman]

Not sure about the Bulls. Last year if you played 3 games in Jim Beam you could not go back to Parra Cup, so the Bulls had 28 players ineligible so even though they were 2nd at half way point they had to forfeit the balance of the season.

The perverse nature of this rule is shown by the fact that Robbie King played 22 Jim Beam games and did not appear in any of the finals, while Willie Mclean was kept in Parra Cup until after grand final and then played in all 4 of Wenty's Jim Beam finals.

 

[the spoon]

I feel a open age comp with a divisional stucture spread across Sydney would be beneficial and encourage higher player numbers though simply would never happen as the current junior leagues would never agree.
What may be achievable though is seperating the semi-pro clubs from the purely amateur clubs. The semi-pro clubs from each competition should be forced to enter there firsts team at least in the semi-pro comp (could work by creating divisions within the Jim Beam Cup).
The clubs could still be involved with their junior leagues though this would help alter the current gap between the top and bottom teams within the A-Grade competitions.
The A-Grade comps would remain the same though would now become purely amateur competitions which would encourage many more players to play the game at more of a social level. A level that league has now lacked and that can now only really be found in the North Sydney competiton.

and spoon, you have contradicted yourself in what you are saying.
you comment that many clubs have left the group 6 comp due to the current playing standard of the likes of Camden, Thirlmere and The Oaks then say by these clubs joining the Jim Beam Cup it would weaken your competition.
wouldnt this simply mean the clubs that have previously been forced to leave the comp could now remain and the competition would now be a lot more level across the board?
i understand what you are saying though if these larger clubs are made to still enter teams in the group 6 comp it would simply make the the smaller teams a lot more competitive and in turn strengthen the comp which is currently dominated by the large, big spending clubs.

What im trying to say is if these clubs join jim bean where do the players come from? the group that means the group will loose another team in the comp and further lessen the comp in general.Group 6 has always been a proud comp and it should stay that way. taking teams and players away from the area for 3rd string comp thats is not all that important is just dumb

 

[bazza]

What im trying to say is if these clubs join jim bean where do the players come from? the group that means the group will loose another team in the comp and further lessen the comp in general.Group 6 has always been a proud comp and it should stay that way. taking teams and players away from the area for 3rd string comp thats is not all that important is just dumb

What if there was 1 or 2 clubs in a group that were just way too good or professional for the rest. Surely it would be better for that club to have their best players in a higher level like Jim Beam Cup and have their 2nd team in the local competition.

This would give other clubs in the group games against more evenly matched opponents and the better players a chance to play at a higher level- rather then see if they can get 100 points the next week.

I think if any team wants to play in Jim Beam Cup they should be required to still field a team in their local comp. I believe this is what happens with the Central Coast teams in th JB Cup

 

[mono_mal]

exactly what I was trying to say Bazza.
and it already is a requirement of the Jim Beam Cup for country teams to still field a team in the local comp as all 4 central coast clubs currently do and as Narellan were going to do before pulling out of this years comp.
this agreement was made with the CRL to ensure local competitions are not destroyed. country teams also must wear a CRL badge to represent their country status.
and Nfed,
im not entirely certain but i think the Bulls will be fielding a reserves side in the Canterbury comp this year under the Bankstown Bulls banner.
the following was posted by mighty heighty on the nswrl forum at rleague.com
'in our canterbury comp...... bankstown bulls thrashed the crap out of a talented milperra colts side 104-4
the bulls (formerly cougars [joint-venture of former bankstown city and bankstown collegians]) merged in an association with sydney bulls in the jim beam cup and the A-grade side is effectively their reserve grade team..........'

 

[Nfed]

yes Mal - that is the Bulls reserve grade. Last year they had to withdraw from the Parramatta Cup - ran out of players because of problems with being registered for two comps I think. Now that they are fielding junior teams they are playing back in Canterbury. Can't say I know what Mighty Heighty's problem is - you'd think they would be happy to have a stronger team in the comp.

You haven't been posting as much this year Mal - are you still following JB Cup? Who are you supporting now that Guildford aren't around?

 

[mono_mal]

Nfed,
The Bulls would have to be odds on to win the Canterbury comp this year in my opinion. Good luck to your guys.
And will we ever see the Bulls Jim Beam team change there name to Bankstown Bulls as the junior team is now called?
To me it makes a lot more sense as then you can more specifically target the Bankstown public and give them their own team. I know it is so currently but simple things like a name change could make a big difference for people with no previous following of the Jim Beam Cup.
The name Sydney is way too broad for a JBC team to appeal to a target market.

And yeah I'm still around. Haven't been to as many Jim Beam games this year as I'm coaching and studying so struggling to find the time. I'm hoping to start writing round previews again in coming weeks, time permitting, and am still a huge fan of the Jim Beam Cup.
I've got an interest in a number of teams this year, particularly Woy Woy due to the strong Guildford prescence in the team, though Im also getting behind the Jets,Windsor and Wenty.
Hopefully the Owls will be back soon.
We have a new junior committee and strengthened junior numbers on top of the current talent coming through so hopefully the Leagues Club board can be convinced to re enter in coming years.
Only time will tell.

 

[Sydney Carton]

In Brisbane we have a Second Division comp with around 90 teams. They are split into several Northside and Southside Divisions + 2 age divisions.

It's the largest Rugby League competition in the world.

It was formed as an amalgamation of several leagues like Public Service & pub leagues.

It's a good structure as clubs can enter at the level that suits them. Eg my local club Southern Cross have one side only in the Southside 4 competition (even then they get belted though :roll: ). Even some Queensland Cup clubs have "3rd" grade sides which play in 2nd Division.