ibeme
First Grade
- Messages
- 6,904
wittyfan said:Also, this is the same club that had a "truth" meeting for everyone to get their stories straight on Coffs Harbour.
That's right. The club had no right to try to get to the bottom of it.:roll:
wittyfan said:Also, this is the same club that had a "truth" meeting for everyone to get their stories straight on Coffs Harbour.
mattyg said:how is he acting like a victim you idiot?? the whole time he has been saying Reni should be dumped and all that, go away you ****en moron.
Timmah is not acting like a victim in this case. all you use any excuse to bash us. If it was the entire bulldogs team that got kicked out of a club on the weekend there would be 3 threads on it already. me and timmah have (im guessing) never done anything wrong at a football game, and never caused any trouble, yet we have to put up with constant bashing of ALL bulldogs fans, even when we admit that something has to be done.
we ARE the victims if we are the ones who have to put up with criticism all the time. The people causing the trouble really dont care. its about time for you a**holes to go and support your own club, we have had enough of all this bulldog supporter bashing.
innsaneink said:Victim :-({|= Poor us.
If im talking footy with a bulldogs fan, I talk footy, if the thread is about fans, players misbehaviour or a lack of punishment, then I & others have a right to discuss it....again, what do you expect in this situation of what seems like pretty lax discipline...I mean he got the same thing 4 weeks back for being late to training.mattyg said:i said that in this case we weren't acting as the victim, timmah has constantly recommended reni be punished by the club, however you manage to get it out of timmah somehow.
we don't deserve to be bashed if we do act that way though. i mean what have most of our fans ever done, apart from hear sh*t about our crowds week in week out (when we attend every week and never see anything - not saying it doesnt happen), listen to all the stuff our players get up to almost on a monthly basis. all we do is pay our money to support our team, and do whatever it takes to stick up for them.
The innocent fans are the ones who cop "rapists, Mediterranean Descendants, dirty team, crowd bashers" comments every time we tell someone who we support, or attend an opposition game. The comments we get have gone beyond friendly banter and it is a regular occurence at games with us playing.
NOBODY has said what reni done is right, everyone including his biggest fans reckon he is an idiot for it, but everybody makes mistakes, I just don't feel he should lose his job over it.
Also, we have given Reni till friday and then we will deal with him further. He also has an impending court case. It is not the bulldogs responsibility to uphold the law as you f**** are suggesting.
...and all I can think is "victim".Again, just looking for reasons and excuses to lay the boot in
innsaneink said:Oh look, its timmmaaah with his victim hat on. :-({|=
Dont have to look far for reasons when the Bulldogs club, some players and some fans continually provide them.
wittyfan said:Also, this is the same club that had a "truth" meeting for everyone to get their stories straight on Coffs Harbour.
wittyfan said:Yeah, they got to the bottom of it with carpet sweepers.
wittyfan said:We will never know what happened on the morning of February 22, 2004.
Jimmy said:I did not think the Coffs Harbour affair would be back on the agenda again. However, if we are to believe that nothing happened and the alleged victim told a pack of lies, why all the turmoil within the club and the exit of senior administrators including the much admired Steve Mortimer ?
ibeme said:Pure speculation on your behalf. If that was their intention, why would they have announced to the world that they had this meeting at all? It's only natural when any organisation is trying to get to the bottom of what happened, they're going to want to know the truth. There is a book being written about this by one of the investigating officers. He was in the paper the other day stating that they knew no charges would be laid 48 hours into the investigation because the evidence was too flimsy. According to the article, one of the investigating officers wanted to pursue the alleged victim for making false accusations after the investigation was over. I know that doesn't fit in with what you believe happened, but I think he has a bit more insight than the rest of us.
wittyfan said::lol:
I wonder how this "senior officer" explains away these comments:
JOHN STEWART: Despite the case being dumped, police are convinced that something did happen between the woman and several Bulldogs players at Coffs Harbour.
wittyfan said:JASON BRETON: Absolutely - that's why for 10 weeks we worked almost 18 hours a day for 10 weeks the detectives at Coffs Harbour and from State Crime Command worked vigorously to work on finding out the truth.
Source: http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2004/s1096944.htm
Yeah, police spent so much effort and resources into "flimsy" cases.
sooperdooper said:I have no doubt that Reni would be chuckling!
his meeting with the dogs would have had this in there!
Noad is a joke and the nrl need to step in to do something about this club
ibeme said:Sex! Breton also said that evidence doesn't distinguish between consensual and non-consensual.
ibeme said:He said that they were pressured to get a result, which is why the investigation kept going. A lot of officers have left or are leaving as a result of the pressure applied in this case. The result was what they expected 48 hours into the investigation. As much as you want this to have happened witty, you need to face the facts. Even the media is starting to. A year after the investigation the Weekend Australian Magazine had a two part story on it. It explained what happened, and it explained what didn't happen. It explained why and how. It explained time lines. It explained independant witness accounts.
wittyfan said:I've read that Weekend Australian article. It just raised more questions, rather than clearing anything up.
THIS MUCH WE KNOW, FROM WITNESS statements and other evidence. This was not the first time the young woman had returned with members of the Bulldogs to the Novotel Pacific Bay Resort, proudly billed the "Home of the Wallabies" after Australia's rugby squad adopted the picturesque haven as its training base in 2000.
In a statement given to police, the woman said she had also visited the resort three nights before the Bulldogs-Canberra match, and had had consensual sex with four players, a claim verified by the men involved. Sources close to the team dispute whether it was "group sex" or sex with four individual players at separate times during that night - an indication of the delicate complexities of the debate about group sex, subtleties which were largely lost in ensuing media outrage.
The Bulldogs also denied media reports that players were drunk or badly behaved after their win on Saturday. An independent inquiry into allegations of brawling and sexual harassment, ordered by National Rugby League boss David Gallop and conducted by former chief of detectives Ken Bowditch, later vindicated the team. In addition, Plantation Hotel licensee Harry Barry sent his own letter to then Bulldogs CEO Steve Mortimer commending his players' conduct. "I did not see, nor did anyone complain to me or a member of my staff, about the behaviour of the Bulldogs while at the hotel," Barry wrote. "Indeed, staff, regular customers and the Bulldogs had a most enjoyable night."
One player more than most, perhaps. Recognising the young woman from the pre-match bacchanalia of Wednesday night, this player - a younger member of the squad - flirted with her in the bar before disappearing to have sex with her in a room at the backpackers' hostel that forms part of the sprawling Planto complex. (Although the woman lives with her parents and her 18-month-old son just a few minutes' drive from the pub, her friend Kylie Hubbard lives more than 30km out of town and the women apparently often used the hostel as a base when they planned a big night out together.)
What happened next, after the woman returned from her assignation in the hostel bedroom, is more contentious. Several players told police she pestered them as they played poker machines clustered in a quiet corner of the hotel, away from the main dance floor and bar. Sources close to those players say she harassed high-profile forward Willie Mason particularly insistently. Lawyers for the Bulldogs complain that a surveillance tape from the Plantation Hotel's security cameras which would have proved or disproved these potentially damning claims was taken by police, who assured them they would be able to make a copy but later reneged on that arrangement. "We have received instruction [the woman] was jumping over the backs of the players and pressing the payout buttons [on the poker machines] without their permission," Bulldogs solicitor John Carmody said, when asked what he believed the tape would show. "We also have information she picked up a player's glass and began licking it with her tongue."
A doorman at the hotel later told police he had been slapped in the chest by the woman after he refused to intervene on her behalf when a player barred her from sharing his cab back to the Pacific Bay Resort. The player - understood to be Mason - allegedly swore vehemently at the woman as he told her to leave him alone. "It's pretty ironic and unfair that people have assumed Willie had something to do with this when he was probably the most verbose in rejecting her," says a senior source in Bulldogs management. "And that he could even have been fined for using bad language in public to reject her. He was nowhere near the Wednesday night stuff, either."
Says another, a veteran of the game: "She was after a trophy [star player] - and she didn't get it. This sort of thing is an elevated form of autograph hunting. A very physical form."
DESPITE THE DISINTEREST - AND, IN some cases, outright hostility - displayed by some of the Bulldogs towards her, the woman eventually shared a cab back to the Pacific Bay Resort about 5.30am, accompanied by the player with whom she had had sex earlier in the night.
She later told police she wanted to go to the resort only to return a wallet to her friend Kylie Hubbard, who had gone back there with a player. But her credibility was thrown into doubt when police later established she had not taken the missing wallet to Pacific Bay; it was left all night at the Planto.
It is here that the timeline - and the evidence of two key independent witnesses - becomes critical. One witness, a maintenance worker at the Pacific Bay Resort, told police he ran into the woman and man shortly after he started work about 5.50am, when she asked him for directions to a semi-private beach adjoining the resort.
About 25 minutes later, he encountered the couple again. By then, they were near the resort's Charlesworth Pool, talking to two young men he had just seen put two other girls into a cab. The girls were "very young, say 16 to 18", the worker recalled. "I thought it was a bit late for them to be out at that time." If nothing else, this evidence suggests at least two other Bulldogs players that night openly flouted the club's unwritten code outlawing women being brought back to the hotel.
A second witness, a pool technician, spotted the couple "actually in the act of sex" in the pool about that time. The man told police it was about 6.30am and broad daylight when he arrived to take water samples from the Charlesworth Pool, one of three pools at the resort. "There was a girl in the water with her back towards me and there was a fellow sitting on the edge of the pool taking his weight on his hands and I presumed they were having oral sex," the man said in his statement to police. He added he deliberately shut the gate loudly to warn them he was there.
"When that happened the girl sort of rose up out of the water and pivoted around beside the bloke and just sat there alongside him ... I wasn't really interested in what they were doing; to me it was just a couple of people having an early morning romp. The girl was just sitting there and I just minded my own business."
Some time after 6.30am, the maintenance worker also entered the pool area to empty bins. He saw the young woman "swimming in the pool breaststroke, virtually in the one spot. She looked like she was enjoying everything. There was nothing unusual about her." The young man with whom she had arrived was nowhere in sight. But the pair he had seen farewelling two younger women in a cab were lying by the pool on banana lounges.
At least one golfer is believed to have been on the course that hugs the pool - a putting green sits just five metres from its perimeter fence - at that time. By 7am, the golf shop and snack bar that overlooks the area had opened; by 7.15am, when the pool technician returned to do more work on the Charlesworth Pool, it was deserted.
The young woman originally told police the assault happened some time between 6am and 7am, although she later broadened that window to between 5.30am and 7.30am. If the independent witnesses are to be believed, and physical evidence of time, weather and locale taken into account, there seems almost no opportunity left in that period for six to eight young men to assault a woman undetected in a pool area overlooked by two large hotel blocks.
Nevertheless, at 8.30am, an ambulance was called to the resort. An hour or so later, Bulldogs CEO Steve Mortimer walked out of his hotel room and immediately spotted football manager Garry Hughes speaking to a player who was gesticulating wildly. Mortimer's first thought was: "Oh God, not again."
Two days after police were called to the Pacific Bay Resort, Sydney broadcaster Ray Hadley went to air shortly after 9am, as parents were dropping their children at preschool and pensioners were finishing their breakfast, to read a graphic incident report from Coffs Harbour. "Initial information to police was that the victim ... was taken to the lower pool area by about six to eight of the players," Hadley read. "She has then disclosed to a cleaner that at least six of them sexually assaulted her, without consent, by anal, oral and vaginal penetration."
In the public furore that followed, it was rarely made clear to listeners or readers that an incident report is not a police statement of what they believe to have happened but rather a crime victim's description of an alleged incident. That report may change - as this one did - as time passes and the victim recalls or clarifies details. And ultimately, the police or Department of Public Prosecutions may decide there is not enough evidence to substantiate those claims - as also happened in this case.
But it was decided that, based on the available evidence, it wouldn't have been possible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a sexual assault took place. According to the documents, even the opportunity for gang rape to have occurred that morning, didn't exist.
The medical evidence and photographs of the young woman's body were inconsistent with the treatment she claimed to have received from a group of players that day.
According to the documents, three days earlier on the Wednesday night, the young woman had consensual group sex with five Bulldogs players in a room at the Pacific Bay Resort.
She was out of town on the Thursday and Friday, but by Saturday she'd returned to Coffs Harbour.
That night she had consensual sex with a player in a room at the Plantation Hotel. At one point she was rejected by another player, and complained to the hotel about harassment, but her complaint was dismissed by a bouncer who witnessed the exchange.
According to the documents, she caught a taxi with another player back to the Pacific Bay Resort, the two ended up at the pool where they had consensual sex. Several people witnessed the events.
He left, but she stayed behind in the pool. According to several witnesses, when the player returned, he offered to call her a taxi but she declined.
She then went back up to the hotel, to the room of the player who rejected her advances earlier. He and his roommate saw her coming and barred the door.
She left the hotel and some time later was found in the car park in a hysterical state.
The documents suggest that while they didn't break the law, the Bulldogs acted beyond the pale, having taken advantage of a disturbed and immature young woman.
We've been told this week that DNA evidence was inconclusive, there were some inconsistencies in the complainant's story, Bulldogs players had eventually provided alibis which checked out, there was no corroboration of the complainant's version from independent witnesses, timelines from all versions indicated that the pack rape could not have occurred when the complainant said it did.
But police are not expected to take any action against the complainant for making what many now believe was a false or vexatious allegation.