Minnows screwed over - RWC=joke competition

[The Observer]

In case you have all missed it, clubs have officially turned the RWC into a joke competition. None of you will be able to criticise the RLWC because this tournament will be equally dominated by a couple of top teams - it had the Kangaroos, Kiwis and England capable of doing something.

For a game that supposedly has a much more vibrant international competition, there are only 4 teams in this tournament that have a remote chance of winning - Wallabies, All Blacks, England and France. The rest - thanks for coming.

http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,7299611-23217,00.html

 

[Auckland4ever]

There was only ever going to be 4 or 5 teams realisitically capable of winning the cup anyway.
For all the talk the IRB give about growing the game, things dont seem to have advanced a huge amount. A number of nations have gone backwards. The link above highlights some of the reasons why.

 

[bayrep]

Do you think out side of the top 4-5 nations in soccer any other nation has a chance ? look at the results. Rugby has more potiential for reducung that gap and improving the depth between nations, than league has. What other League nation out side of Aus has won the league world cup ?

Though in saying that the IRU have got to drop the fuddy duddies that have kept their tight light fists on the money and spread it around the developing nations, this is were the growth will come. As they are not willing to spend you are seeing the effect in the article above.

 

[The Observer]

Rugby has more potiential for reducung that gap and improving the depth between nations, than league has.

It's only going to get harder for RU. In places like South Africa and Wales, Rugby Union is facing massive problems, soccer is becoming a major beneficiary and experiencing a surge in popularity.

What other League nation out side of Aus has won the league world cup ?

Great Britain has won the RLWC three times, Australia 8 times. France, NZ, England and Wales have all made the RLWC final.

Realistically, England will choke again in RWC, and unless the Wallabies can lift on home soil, the All Blacks will be carrying the William Webb Ellis trophy across the ditch again. Only three countries will have won the RWC.

Though in saying that the IRU have got to drop the fuddy duddies that have kept their tight light fists on the money and spread it around the developing nations, this is were the growth will come. As they are not willing to spend you are seeing the effect in the article above.

Agreed.

 

[Alan Shore]

Do you think out side of the top 4-5 nations in soccer any other nation has a chance ? look at the results. Rugby has more potiential for reducung that gap and improving the depth between nations, than league has. What other League nation out side of Aus has won the league world cup ?

Though in saying that the IRU have got to drop the fuddy duddies that have kept their tight light fists on the money and spread it around the developing nations, this is were the growth will come. As they are not willing to spend you are seeing the effect in the article above.

Joker addresses your League points.

On soccer, in the last two FIFA WCs we've had three finalists - Brazil, France & Germany. Outside that, we also have the likes of Holland, Sth Korea, Turkey, Italy and Portugal all capable of winning.

 

[Dean Moriarty]

On soccer, in the last two FIFA WCs we've had three finalists - Brazil, France & Germany. Outside that, we also have the likes of Holland, Sth Korea, Turkey, Italy and Portugal all capable of winning.

South Korea
Turkey
Portugal

LMAO :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Alan Shore]

On soccer, in the last two FIFA WCs we've had three finalists - Brazil, France & Germany. Outside that, we also have the likes of Holland, Sth Korea, Turkey, Italy and Portugal all capable of winning.

South Korea
Turkey
Portugal

LMAO :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

What? SK and Turkey did well at the last World Cup and will only get better, while Portugal can't be ruled out when they have class like Figo.

 

[Dean Moriarty]

On soccer, in the last two FIFA WCs we've had three finalists - Brazil, France & Germany. Outside that, we also have the likes of Holland, Sth Korea, Turkey, Italy and Portugal all capable of winning.

South Korea
Turkey
Portugal

LMAO :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

What? SK and Turkey did well at the last World Cup and will only get better, while Portugal can't be ruled out when they have class like Figo.

Sorry. mate. South Korea and Turkey over-achieved at the last World Cup - they were never likely to win it. S Korea were outplayed by both Italy and Spain and managed to hold on for lucky wins. Portugal are the proof that good players do not necessarily make a great team.

They might be threats in the future but not at the moment.

 

[Skippy1]

In case you have all missed it, clubs have officially turned the RWC into a joke competition. None of you will be able to criticise the RLWC because this tournament will be equally dominated by a couple of top teams - it had the Kangaroos, Kiwis and England capable of doing something.

For a game that supposedly has a much more vibrant international competition, there are only 4 teams in this tournament that have a remote chance of winning - Wallabies, All Blacks, England and France. The rest - thanks for coming.

http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,7299611-23217,00.html

Hi Joker.

Obviously this is a wind-up, but simply couldn't resist

To compare the last RLWC to the RWC is so ludicrous. The Lebanese team was full of Campsie boys out for a laugh, and not a serious proposition as a team. Remember seeing a programme on the telly over here (England) at the time about the Lebanese team, and they all had the strongest Aussie accents. The programme then went to Lebanon, yep, you guessed it, they'd never heard of the game, :? let alone who the hell the players were! :lol: The New Zealand Maori team was simply the reserve team for the Kiwi firsts. My point is, they were simply there to make up the numbers, in a competition that there was only ever going to be one winner. Australia! The poms haven't really competed against us for a long time now. Even the Kiwi's are only second rate, as Union is completely dominant in their country.

Rugby Union on the other hand has 94 countries registered with the IRB. None of these are made-up teams by the way. Admittedly, the greater majority of these are playing at amateur level. This is changing though. When you consider that the top countries have only turned Pro in the last 10 years or so, the profile on the world stage still eclipses anything that League has done. How many years now has League been Professional? And what exactly has it done to expand the game on a world-wide basis? A little embarrassing when you think of it in that light, isn't it?

Anyway, lets see if you can manage an intelligent come back.

Cheers, Skip.

 

[Te Kaha]

In case you have all missed it, clubs have officially turned the RWC into a joke competition. None of you will be able to criticise the RLWC because this tournament will be equally dominated by a couple of top teams - it had the Kangaroos, Kiwis and England capable of doing something.

For a game that supposedly has a much more vibrant international competition, there are only 4 teams in this tournament that have a remote chance of winning - Wallabies, All Blacks, England and France. The rest - thanks for coming.

http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,7299611-23217,00.html

Hi Joker.

Obviously this is a wind-up, but simply couldn't resist

To compare the last RLWC to the RWC is so ludicrous. The Lebanese team was full of Campsie boys out for a laugh, and not a serious proposition as a team. Remember seeing a programme on the telly over here (England) at the time about the Lebanese team, and they all had the strongest Aussie accents. The programme then went to Lebanon, yep, you guessed it, they'd never heard of the game, :? let alone who the hell the players were! :lol: The New Zealand Maori team was simply the reserve team for the Kiwi firsts. My point is, they were simply there to make up the numbers, in a competition that there was only ever going to be one winner. Australia! The poms haven't really competed against us for a long time now. Even the Kiwi's are only second rate, as Union is completely dominant in their country.

Rugby Union on the other hand has 94 countries registered with the IRB. None of these are made-up teams by the way. Admittedly, the greater majority of these are playing at amateur level. This is changing though. When you consider that the top countries have only turned Pro in the last 10 years or so, the profile on the world stage still eclipses anything that League has done. How many years now has League been Professional? And what exactly has it done to expand the game on a world-wide basis? A little embarrassing when you think of it in that light, isn't it?

Anyway, lets see if you can manage an intelligent come back.

Cheers, Skip.

I didn't think it was possible I was sure they didn't exist. But there you have it ladies and gentlemen..... In one post this pillick has proved the existince of the Sterotypical Union snob.

It is truly a sad day for all those who follow the game of Union on this forum.

First Mango and now this moron. WHERE WILL IT END??????

 

[Marcus]

To answer the original post, the answer is to play the RWC in the off season of other major rugby competitions.

You never see the Soccer WC played during the EPL or Seria A etc. Its always played in the off season when everbody has no club commitments.

Solution: A global rugby calender.

When the IRB wise up to this and issue a uniform calender that will fit into both hemispheres then club v country issues should not come into play.

Simple solution, but its going to take a while to convince those in the north.

 

[Skippy1]

Good morning Te Kaha,

Where exactly did you detect the snobbery bit mate? :? The fact is, I've played both codes of Rugby, and also a couple of seasons of Aussie rules. I would also stress that I have actually played more League than Union, as most of the schools I went to only played League.

You make huge assumptions based on one particular post. Perhaps you are only a youngster, so I will allow for the fact that perhaps you are still a little impetuous, and don't think before posting.

I have spent a couple of days reading through several of the threads here, and have found a great deal of dross, posted by people who obviously know very little about the game played in heaven, and yet still feel competent to comment on the games failings!

Far enough! But if you can't respond to comments designed to merely evoke a little discussion, without all the random and un-thought out put-downs, then why do you ever bother to put hands to keyboard?? :?: :?

 

[The Observer]

Te Kaha simply told it as it was. Skippy 1, do try to come up with something new and please stop wasting everybody's time.

 

[Skippy1]

To answer the original post, the answer is to play the RWC in the off season of other major rugby competitions.

You never see the Soccer WC played during the EPL or Seria A etc. Its always played in the off season when everbody has no club commitments.

Solution: A global rugby calender.

When the IRB wise up to this and issue a uniform calender that will fit into both hemispheres then club v country issues should not come into play.

Simple solution, but its going to take a while to convince those in the north.

Giday Marcus,

This has been proposed before. The problem is that the summers up here are pretty warm, regardless of what people may believe about the weather. This year was extremely hot, with France saying that they had about 10000 heat related deaths this year. Imagine playing Rugby in these conditions! This is not the norm by any stretch of the imagination, but countries like Spain and Georgia and Romania do have very hot summers. This also makes the ground very hard increasing the likelyhood of serious injuries.

I also argued the point going back about 12 months ago, and while you could probably almost get away with it in Britain and Ireland, After all, the Super League play in the summer here, other countries would find it a difficult prospect. It's always going to be a problem.

With regards to the IRB withholding money from the minnows. I think it will only be a short time before this is sorted out. Lots of people asking the hard questions of late, not least John O'Niell. I don't particularly like the guys methods, but it has to be said that he gets the job done. A question that has always plagued me is, what happened to all the gate-takings during the Amateur Era?? The players weren't being paid. Yet the crowds to International games were still huge. Board room politics would have been very interesting in those days!

 

[Skippy1]

Te Kaha simply told it as it was. Skippy 1, do try to come up with something new and please stop wasting everybody's time.

And that was a refreshingly new comment as well Joker!

Care to elaborate on what your comment might actually be? Or is that it? Merely exercising your fingers then mate? You'll go blind!

 

[The Observer]

There are posters here that enjoy and take an interest in both codes of Rugby. I certainly do. Te Kaha does. Since you are a newcomer to this forum and others, I suggest you go back and have a more careful look at what has actually been written.

Your comments about Lebanon and the Maori bely 1) your ignorance to not only the cultural backgrounds of the players involved but the development work that has gone on there 2) your prejudiced attitudes.

The RLIF allowed the Lebanon Cedars to participate in the RLWC on the proviso that 1) they won a qualifyng tournament (the 1999 Mediterranean Cup and a play off game against the winner of the North Pacific Cup) and 2) that they would start a competition in Lebanon, which they did.

The Mediterranean Cup was revived last year in Tripoli, where Cedars defeated France 36-6 in the first ever game in that country. They are looking to defend the title in Tripoli and Beirut against national teams representing France, Morocco and Serbia.

You may be aggrieved that the LRL used a top down method of developing the game instead of bottom up development. That's your problem. To what degree is Union played in Lebanon?

I am not debating that Rugby Union is present in 94 countries, that it is spread far wider geographically, and its major Unions have far great resources. However, the IRB and various commentators claim that Union has a far more vibrant international game than is actually the case.

 

[The Observer]

This has been proposed before. The problem is that the summers up here are pretty warm, regardless of what people may believe about the weather. This year was extremely hot, with France saying that they had about 10000 heat related deaths this year. Imagine playing Rugby in these conditions! This is not the norm by any stretch of the imagination, but countries like Spain and Georgia and Romania do have very hot summers. This also makes the ground very hard increasing the likelyhood of serious injuries.

I also argued the point going back about 12 months ago, and while you could probably almost get away with it in Britain and Ireland, After all, the Super League play in the summer here, other countries would find it a difficult prospect. It's always going to be a problem.

You have to separate the British Isles and mainland Europe, especially those countries lying on the Mediterranean, when talking about weather. You are correct that median temperatures across Europe have been universally high, and this summer has been the hottest.

The fact is though that average temperatures in the British Isles are still much lower than in the Southern Hemisphere and specifically than Aus and NZ. The main reasons that the Home Unions (Eng, Sco, Wal, Ire) do not want to a summer season are reluctance to embrace change and issues with TV contracts. As you pointed out, the RFL switched elite English RL to a summer season and it improved standards on the playing pitch to the point where the fans would not go back to watching winter Rugby in sleet, hail, rain, drizzle and 3 degree C weather.

It would be highly beneficial for many reasons for the Zurich Premiership and the Celtic League to run their seasons in block format (as suggested by Newcastle boss Rob Andrew and Saracens boss Nigel Wray) from March-July, run the Heineken Cup from August-September, Six Nations and other tests from October-November.

As for France and Italy (countries like Romania and Spain don't stage elite competitions at a professional level), they would not need to move entirely to summer to fall in line with the SH. They could run their club competitions from December-April, and keep most of the European summer free of Rugby, starting the season with the Heineken Cup in Aug-Sept, and internationals in Oct-Nov.

 

[Skippy1]

Good post Joker.

Will readily admit that I'm at the moment ignorant of the state of the game in OZ these days. I've been living in England for over 10 years now, and although I was a League fan in OZ, the game played here is/was in a sad state and was not worth watching. Therefore I lost interest in the code and became more interested in the Union code, as it has a lot more exposure in this country. That is not to say that I would prefer to watch League rather than Union now, as that is not the case. I've found the the League game has changed so much since the days that I played, that it has become unrecognisable as the same game! What's with the un-contested scrums these day?? Sort of waste of time really.

I may be a new poster Joker, to this site at least, but as I explained in an earlier post, I spent a couple of days reading through the various threads and found a lot of animosity towards Union. Are you sure your hassling the right person here? As for Te Kaha's throwaway comment, it got what it deserved in my opinion. Having said that though, if he were to debate his point contructively, without resorting to petty insults, I would only be too willing to defend my opinions in an amicable way. And this for my very first post here! As I said, it got what it deserved.

By the way, this is not my first experience posting on forums either. So if you give me the benefit of the doubt for a bit, we both might find some mutual ground here, instead of going on the defensive straight away, you could perhaps find out a bit more about me than simply assuming the worst.


My comments about the previous RLWC were based simply on the experience of being in this country at the time. And to be honest, most of the time it was embarrassing when, at the after match presentations the greater majority of the accents were Australian. That's not to say that I'm embarrassed to be an Australian. Quite the opposite! There aren't many Aussies that are more patriotic than myself. What I'm saying is that the whole thing came across as a sham due to the participation of so many Australian biased teams! The Media in this country vitually shunned the entire tournament.

This is my point. To compare it to the Union equivilant is rediculous! To believe that there is a comparison.............well who's kidding themselves now then?

 

[Skippy1]

This has been proposed before. The problem is that the summers up here are pretty warm, regardless of what people may believe about the weather. This year was extremely hot, with France saying that they had about 10000 heat related deaths this year. Imagine playing Rugby in these conditions! This is not the norm by any stretch of the imagination, but countries like Spain and Georgia and Romania do have very hot summers. This also makes the ground very hard increasing the likelyhood of serious injuries.

I also argued the point going back about 12 months ago, and while you could probably almost get away with it in Britain and Ireland, After all, the Super League play in the summer here, other countries would find it a difficult prospect. It's always going to be a problem.

You have to separate the British Isles and mainland Europe, especially those countries lying on the Mediterranean, when talking about weather. You are correct that median temperatures across Europe have been universally high, and this summer has been the hottest.

The fact is though that average temperatures in the British Isles are still much lower than in the Southern Hemisphere and specifically than Aus and NZ. The main reasons that the Home Unions (Eng, Sco, Wal, Ire) do not want to a summer season are reluctance to embrace change and issues with TV contracts. As you pointed out, the RFL switched elite English RL to a summer season and it improved standards on the playing pitch to the point where the fans would not go back to watching winter Rugby in sleet, hail, rain, drizzle and 3 degree C weather.

It would be highly beneficial for many reasons for the Zurich Premiership and the Celtic League to run their seasons in block format (as suggested by Newcastle boss Rob Andrew and Saracens boss Nigel Wray) from March-July, run the Heineken Cup from August-September, Six Nations and other tests from October-November.

As for France and Italy (countries like Romania and Spain don't stage elite competitions at a professional level), they would not need to move entirely to summer to fall in line with the SH. They could run their club competitions from December-April, and keep most of the European summer free of Rugby, starting the season with the Heineken Cup in Aug-Sept, and internationals in Oct-Nov.

Your preaching to the converted here mate! Agree with most of your points. Would say though that the Med. states wouldn't be too happy with you dissing their National comps. though. And there is the 6N "B" competition to consider as well that involves Spain, Tunisia, Georgia, Russia, Romania and Portugal. Perhaps not big names in the world of Rugby, but still a big part of the development of the game. If we fob these countries off, the sport will die in these countries. I think for this reason as well, the IRB and the Brit and Irish Unions are reticent to change the seasons for fear of simply leaving these Countries way behind.

It wasn't so long ago that the Romanians were a very strong team.

 

[The Observer]

Skippy 1, You do make some fair points there, and we probably should give each other the benefit of the doubt. I admit my opening statement was a little provocative, and that there wee aspects of RLWC that were disappointing (e.g. the dominance of Aus) for me because I had such high hopes for it, but I still enjoyed the tournament and watching the different games. Similarly there will be aspects of RWC that are disappointing too when it should not be the case.

RWC will be a stunning success off the field, financially, in terms of attendances and viewers, and as an event. However on the field there could be massacres. If circumstances were better and countries could call upon players that were eligible for them, there could be at least 8 teams in contention for the RWC title rather than 4, given international Rugby has been <reasonably> more competitive than RL. Unfortunately we could see the All Blacks and England put 200 points on some of the minnows. Australia A put 108 odd points on Canada last year, imagine what the current NZ team will do! Samoa, Tonga, Fiji Namibia, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy could all be much stronger than they are if they were able to select players that had played for other countries or pick their strongest squads.

League did struggle for a while, especially with the SL war, but one could argue that it has improved markedly since then, that the standard of club competition in Aus and England is better than ever, and that the Ashes series this year could be the closest in years.

About the global RU season, I wasn't trying to diss the competititions in Euro/Med countries like Spain, Romania etc by calling them unprofessional, was just saying that they weren't full-time professional, but semi pro or amateur. I doubt players based in those countries can play Rugby as a a profession, but need to work outside it. I don't suggest fobbing the 6N B countries yet I don't believe that switching to a global season would be the reason that they are left behind. Unfortunately I think the full time/part time schism and the widening gap between rich and poor will achieve that though.

It is good that Rugby is gaining popularity in countries like Argentina.