Move all club games to ANZ like the AFL do with games at the MCG?

[btaag]

A mate of mine always talks up the Wests Tigers crowd averages vs Parramatta's averages, and gives me heaps for Parramatta Stadium not selling out this season and last (EG: The 18,000 crowd vs St George).

I discounted this because at ANZ when you have a poor crowd you dont get any less than at a smaller ground, but when you get a good crowd it is 25-35,000.

I analysed the difference in crowds for West before they moved to ANZ and then on to the SFS. I always thought that even if you played poorly all season, playing out of ANZ improves your averages (ALL games, not just the ones you are guaranteed to get a crowd).

Well, the Stats (from the Rugby League Project website) are in – below are home averages from Campbelltown, Leichardt and Parramatta Stadium - 2000-2010.

Wests Tigers

Campbelltown
Overall 2000-2010 = 12,677
Pre ANZ/SFS 2000-2004 = 7,535 (28 games)
Post ANZ/SFS 2005-2010 = 21,675 (16 games)
Observation: Massive increase in averages since moving to ANZ and playing only a few selective games at C’Town

Leichardt
Overall 2000-2010 = 13,055
Pre ANZ/SFS Average 2000-2004 = 10,608 (26 games)
Post ANZ/SFS Average 2005-2010 =17,032 (16 games)
Observation: Very strong increase in averages since moving to ANZ and playing only a few selective game at Leichardt

Wests Tigers Overall Average 2000-2010 = 15,133

Parramatta Eels at Parramatta Stadium
Overall 2000-2010= 14,065
Observation: Under Fitzgerald the attendances at Parramatta suffered, but we played very badly and ugly for many seasons – poor management, but no excuses. Still, 14,000 per game is a good average.

Overall Season Averages – All stadiums – comparison

Parramatta VS Wests Tigers

2000 15,552 VS 12,124
2001 17,886 VS 12,790
2002 14,089 VS 10,478
2003 11,262 VS 8,993
2004 11,766 VS 13,935
2005 16,478 VS 19,500
2006 14,450 VS 19,357
2007 14,142 VS 16,766
2008 12,479 VS 15,930
2009 12,862 VS 16,848
2010 21232 VS 19,743 (Up to current round)
(NOTE – Eels have played 2 games at ANZ and have a higher average than all of the other Sydney teams….it is the ANZ factor (as 40% of both crowds were Souths/Dogs fans)

Observation1: Tigers moved to ANZ in 2005-2008. Moved to SFS in 2009 – averages rose dramatically in 2005 and though they dipped in 2008, were helped by sellouts at Leichardt and the SFS (Parramatta Eels game where 60% were Eels fans – not bitter, it is the ANZ/SFS factor).

Observation2: The poor attendance at the Eels games is inexcusable, though they played very poorly in 2003,4,6,8 never really being in the chase for the finals. We have the third most members of any club in NSW

Just to add some further context, here are some other attendance statistics:

Dogs Averages – All Grounds 2000-2010
NRL 2000 -12,886
NRL 2001 -14,427
NRL 2002 -14,160
NRL 2003- 20,884
NRL 2004 -19,561
NRL 2005 -17,844
NRL 2006 -17,878
NRL 2007 -16,585
NRL 2008 -15,971
NRL 2009 -21,058
NRL 2010 -18,314

Observation – The first team to embrace ANZ Stadium and their crowds increased greatly after 2003 when they moved to ANZ full time. Continue to get great crowds at ANZ – the 12,000 games are balanced by the 25,000-30,000 games.4th most memberships


Saints Averages All Ground 2000-2010
NRL 2000 -10,978
NRL 2001 -12,268
NRL 2002 -13,112
NRL 2003 -13,061
NRL 2004 -14,347
NRL 2005 -15,151
NRL 2006 -13,825
NRL 2007 -12,159
NRL 2008 -12,596
NRL 2009 -15,520
NRL 2010 -14,939

Observation – one of the best supported clubs in the NRL, though have a 20,000 and 17,000 seat Stadium. Therefore, averages have never topped 20,000. Membership is the 2nd biggest of any club in NSW.

Souths Averages 2002-2010
PRE ANZ
NRL 2002 -15,173
NRL 2003 -9,380
NRL 2004 -9,759
NRL 2005 -11,321
NRL 2006 -10,612
POST ANZ
NRL 2007 -15,582
NRL 2008 -15,178
NRL 2009 -14,616
NRL 2010 -21,404

Observation – Post ANZ Averages rose dramatically, even when performance was poor in 2008, 2009.

Random Observations:
1) In the period when Parramatta and Wests played all their games at suburban grounds, Parramatta had a superior average. A mitigating factor is that the Tigers did not have success on the field and were newly created, though Parramatta had poor seasons in 2002,3,4.
2) Playing 3-4 games at Leichardt and Campbelltown is a very effective tactic to increase crowds, with the average at the small venues higher in many instances on average than the overall Wests averages since 2005 (a point made previously). If you make going to Leichardt or Campbelltown a special occaision, and you market it effectively, you can get a nostalgic crowd reminiscing about the Balmain Tigers or Western Suburbs Magpies. The Tigers have been very effective at doing this.
3) Games at ANZ and SFS are like neutral games, much like the MCG. There is no suburban feel to these grounds. The good facilities attract more families and walk-up ticket holders which increases the crowds.


Ultimately, I love Parramatta Stadium (needs refurbishment, 10,000 more seats), I love my season tickets and want to stay there long term, though have the option to move the odd game to ANZ when we will get 30-70,000 and not have to pay $150,000 to SCG Trust for the privelage. If it means Parras crowd averages are smaller, so be it.

 

[parano1a]

Melbourne has a lot better set up than Sydney in that all of its stadiums are located centrally which makes transport easy from all parts of the city. It's a lot harder for Sydney for people in the far west to get to SFS or other areas to get to ANZ.

Within a 3km radius from the City Centre you have pretty much all of the city's major sporting arenas:
- MCG
- Etihad Stadium
- New AAMI Park
- Rod Laver Arena
- Hisense Arena

Originally there was a lot of resistance from AFL clubs leaving the traditional grounds like Victoria Park, Windy Hill and Moorabin but the situation now is great for crowds, with many blockbusters attracting crowds of 60k+ on a weekly basis.

The NRL would love this situation but for it to work clubs are going to have to bite the bullet and abandon playing at their suburban grounds. In the short terms fans will hate it, but once families and neutral supporters get into the habit of attending games at SFS and ANZ it could work. The transport situation is the major stumbling block - free shuttle buses from the teams traditional grounds maybe?

 

[Parra]

I cannot understand this fascination with crowd figures.


Watch the footy and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.

 

[Lockyer4President!]

Very nice post. I think you can make an excuse for the Tigers early years as they would've had a fair few fans not embracing the new merger until 2005, which ties in nicely to when they moved to ANZ.

re: ground rationalisation, I think it'll have to happen, sooner rather than later for some clubs. I'll be very surprised if Parra haven't moved the majority of their games to Homebush by the end of the decade.

It really makes you wonder how much better crowd figures would be if Homebush was built like Lang Park ie: crowd close to the action and well covered from the elements.

 

[$$Poor Boy Blues$$]

I cannot understand this fascination with crowd figures.


Watch the footy and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.

A great crowd means a better atmosphere. For any single person attending their game-day experience is increased. They experience more intense emotions and consequently by enjoying the day more they get the reward pathways linked up harder with league, and therefore are more likely to seek to attend again.

From a clubs perspective, it means more dollars, and in this day and age, with clubs struggling financially, this is a much sought after thing. To most clubs, this way of thinking currently being undertaken [the maximization of attendances] is something new. I expect greater results in the years ahead - both short and long term.

So in a kind of funny way, our enjoyment of the game is linked both directly and indirectly....directly due to what is mentioned above, and indirectly because healthy crowds mean our club has a better chance of survival in these testing time.....and also one might suspect because this is a new area for league, its exciting; and also still because we have traditionally been very poor in this area.

Crowds and members are seen as a sign of life and exuberance for our game. And with good reason. The one chance you have to show the world how great the game is and how great your club is, is when you deck out your home stadium in their colours by the thousands as close to capacity as possible.

To me the game and crowds are interwoven. We will continue to talk them because we love to see them improve, and scold them when they are bad. It shows we care...

 

[Saint Doc]

Great post, but just for some balance.

Dragons took 6 games to ANZ in 2008. The crowds were:

15,000 vs Sharks
21,000 vs Roosters (ANZAC match)
8,000 vs Melbourne
9,000 vs Penrith
7,000 vs Bulldogs
17,000 vs Parra

Avg ~ 12,800. 16% capacity

Compare that to 2009 Kogarah

Avg ~ 16,500 in an 18,000 capacity (except game one, 20000 capacity subsequently reduced). 92% capacity.

For saints, taking all games away would be a big mistake. Best case scenario would be further upgrades to Kogarah, taking capacity to a genuine 25-26,000.

Second best scenario would, IMO, be a 3-SFS, 4-Kogarah, 5-Wollongong split, with games vs Roosters (ANZAC day years) and two of Bulldogs/Souths/Tigers/Parra to the SFS. Give Kogarah games like Panthers, Manly, Sharks. Give the gong out of towners like Qld teams, Storm, Raiders. The issues that complicate this plan however is the 50/50 split between Sydney and gong, and that taking games away reduces the chance of upgrades in the future.

 

[TheDalek079]

8,000 vs Melbourne
9,000 vs Penrith
7,000 vs Bulldogs

Kick the bastards out of the comp:roll::roll::crazy:

 

[Alex28]

It's a great idea in theory, however the problem is that the MCG is right in the middle of the CBD and a place where people want to go. ANZ Stadium is in a sh*thole backwater and it isn't worth the pain of travelling out there for the majority.

 

[simostorm]

I think the NRL need to do just that. Clubs drop surburban grounds.
Manly forked out 14 mil some years back to Brookevale to have work done.
These are ridiculous costs that are made to surburban grounds that come out of the clubs own money.

Clubs could play out of Homebush or the SFS. would be much better.

 

[chrisc101]

Great post, but just for some balance.

Dragons took 6 games to ANZ in 2008. The crowds were:

15,000 vs Sharks
21,000 vs Roosters (ANZAC match)
8,000 vs Melbourne
9,000 vs Penrith
7,000 vs Bulldogs
17,000 vs Parra

Avg ~ 12,800. 16% capacity

Compare that to 2009 Kogarah

Avg ~ 16,500 in an 18,000 capacity (except game one, 20000 capacity subsequently reduced). 92% capacity.

For saints, taking all games away would be a big mistake. Best case scenario would be further upgrades to Kogarah, taking capacity to a genuine 25-26,000.

Second best scenario would, IMO, be a 3-SFS, 4-Kogarah, 5-Wollongong split, with games vs Roosters (ANZAC day years) and two of Bulldogs/Souths/Tigers/Parra to the SFS. Give Kogarah games like Panthers, Manly, Sharks. Give the gong out of towners like Qld teams, Storm, Raiders. The issues that complicate this plan however is the 50/50 split between Sydney and gong, and that taking games away reduces the chance of upgrades in the future.

Please tell your CEO this!!!! All Sydney clubs need to split their games, even if it is just 2-3 at the large venues. Makes a massive difference to your average.

 

[chrisc101]

I think the NRL need to do just that. Clubs drop surburban grounds.
Manly forked out 14 mil some years back to Brookevale to have work done.
These are ridiculous costs that are made to surburban grounds that come out of the clubs own money.

Clubs could play out of Homebush or the SFS. would be much better.

Eventually I agree, but not for a long time. You still need to pad out your averages with games at the surburban grounds. First step is to take the blockbusters to the big grounds.

 

[bartman]

Great post, but just for some balance.

Dragons took 6 games to ANZ in 2008. The crowds were:

15,000 vs Sharks
21,000 vs Roosters (ANZAC match)
8,000 vs Melbourne
9,000 vs Penrith
7,000 vs Bulldogs
17,000 vs Parra

Avg ~ 12,800. 16% capacity

Compare that to 2009 Kogarah

Avg ~ 16,500 in an 18,000 capacity (except game one, 20000 capacity subsequently reduced). 92% capacity.

For saints, taking all games away would be a big mistake. Best case scenario would be further upgrades to Kogarah, taking capacity to a genuine 25-26,000.

Second best scenario would, IMO, be a 3-SFS, 4-Kogarah, 5-Wollongong split, with games vs Roosters (ANZAC day years) and two of Bulldogs/Souths/Tigers/Parra to the SFS. Give Kogarah games like Panthers, Manly, Sharks. Give the gong out of towners like Qld teams, Storm, Raiders. The issues that complicate this plan however is the 50/50 split between Sydney and gong, and that taking games away reduces the chance of upgrades in the future.

Nice.

I'm firmly in this school of thought. Made the suburban grounds up to a new modern enjoyable standard, and clubs will be better served in their own areas.

As a fan I'd have no desire to go to as many games if they were all always held at the same ground for every team. It would start to lose it's meaning for me, and move away from the reason of why I (and presumably many others) started following league, for my local team playing locally.

 

[Willow]

Please tell your CEO this!!!! All Sydney clubs need to split their games, even if it is just 2-3 at the large venues. Makes a massive difference to your average.

Saint Doc didn't say Saints should split games as a first option. He said it was the second best scenario after suburban ground upgrades, and staying at Kogarah and Wollongong.

From his figures, it is abundantly clear that Kogarah has been a huge success in recent years, especially when compared to playing home games at Homebush.

Edit:
P.S. FTR, Saints do play home games at the SFS regularly. It's just done properly with enough warning (like when the draw is announced). Last year our CEO was opposed to shuffling the deck at late notice.

 

[flamin]

Great post, but just for some balance.

Dragons took 6 games to ANZ in 2008. The crowds were:

15,000 vs Sharks
21,000 vs Roosters (ANZAC match)
8,000 vs Melbourne
9,000 vs Penrith
7,000 vs Bulldogs
17,000 vs Parra

Avg ~ 12,800. 16% capacity

Compare that to 2009 Kogarah

Avg ~ 16,500 in an 18,000 capacity (except game one, 20000 capacity subsequently reduced). 92% capacity.

For saints, taking all games away would be a big mistake. Best case scenario would be further upgrades to Kogarah, taking capacity to a genuine 25-26,000.

Second best scenario would, IMO, be a 3-SFS, 4-Kogarah, 5-Wollongong split, with games vs Roosters (ANZAC day years) and two of Bulldogs/Souths/Tigers/Parra to the SFS. Give Kogarah games like Panthers, Manly, Sharks. Give the gong out of towners like Qld teams, Storm, Raiders. The issues that complicate this plan however is the 50/50 split between Sydney and gong, and that taking games away reduces the chance of upgrades in the future.

The Dragons should be playing big games at the SFS, definitely not ANZ. Even a 25,000 upgraded suburban stadium is too small for big games.

ANZ really needs to be converted into a rectangular ground, or failing that (because of AFL) we need a 40- 50,000 seater in Western Sydney. Hopefully the proposed stadium at Blacktown is built somewhere more centralized.

 

[duylm]

Really good post thanks.

Stadium rationalisation was touted as the saviour of AFL but it seems to be problematic. Teams with smaller fan bases that are forced to play at larger venues lose money hand over fist such as North Melbourne & Port Adelaide. I seem to recall reading about a game a year or so back where North Melbourne managed to draw a crowd of 40,000, and only made $1 on every patron.

Also, all the Melbourne teams are clustered very tightly around the CBD. The furtherest club is Essendon, a full 8km out!! Parramatta (the geographical centre of Sydney) to Penrith, what we consider a local derby, is 30km by comparison. Parra to Bankstown is 15km. This is reflected by the fact that Penrith fans will barely even travel to Parra. Something to do with the price of fuel and being a povvo westie (I'm a Penrith fan btw :sarcasm.

In your examples, crowds have lifted for Souths & the Bulldogs. This is thanks to the bulldogs being closer to the venue, and souths supporters being based all over sydney i.e not around Moore Park-Bondi. And the Wests Tigers eample highlights how much on-field success is factor. As cited by Saint Doc, when a team that is not so close to the area tries it, it's a disastor for them crowd-wise.

My suggestion for boosting crowds more is a significant discount ticket for opposition team members, say 20-30%. It has a two fold effect of increasing crowd numbers and making memberships more attractive IMAO*. Some research/trialling needs to be done to see if this would work. Maybe it could be a distance based thing. Make it half price for opposition members for Penrith v Manly and Penrith v Cronulla or something. (this is a sydney suggestion as per the topic, i'm not suggesting cowboys fans get in free to all our games!)

*i despise the term In-My-Humble-Opinion, and am trying to coin the phrase In-My-Arrogant-Opinion.

 

[Slackboy72]

It seems the dogs don't think much of your idea:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/bulldogs-are-coming-home/story-e6frexnr-1225869411645

 

[flamin]

Thats the admin and training side of things Slackboy. They wont be playing there for the forseeable future.

 

[zombie jesus]

I love Brookvale and all that goes with it, but the place is a dump and I would not complain if I was going to the SFS instead. I'm in a very, very small minority though.

 

[_snafu_]

Saint Doc has said it all. I'm a Saints fan and the only time I went to ANZ was to see the Charity Shield and the heritage match against the Bulldogs. I didn't go to the rest of the games at ANZ because it takes me about 2 hours to get there by public transport (whereas it takes me 20mins to get to Kogarah) and the place is crap to watch football.

 

[brendothejet]

Great effort but unfortunately completely overlooks the massive push in club membership advertising over the last four years, the years that coincide most with the rise in attendances.

There are a number of factors at work here. Promotion, membership, competitiveness and moving SELECT games to larger stadiums has all helped raise the average.

PLaying all games out of one stadium or two a la AFL just wont work. The NRL in sydney is a different beast and needs a very set of special conditions worked out to maximise the crowds.