No expansion for 10 years?

[gyallop]

I think the Western Corridor doesn't have to make a noise like the some others as they are already involved in the game with 2 Qld cup teams and Toowoomba Clydesdales which a lot of people over look. No other bid actively runs a club .

Does anyone know what support the bombers actually have?

We might have some clarity soon as John Grant iis back in Australia

 

[Red&BlackBear]

I think the Western Corridor doesn't have to make a noise like the some others as they are already involved in the game with 2 Qld cup teams and Toowoomba Clydesdales which a lot of people over look. No other bid actively runs a club .

Does anyone know what support the bombers actually have?

We might have some clarity soon as John Grant iis back in Australia

North Sydney Bears? Central Capras? WA Reds in sgball and Harold Matt's.. That's 3 bids directly involved with active teams...

 

[Perth Red]

EXPANSION CONTRACTION

LEAGUE insiders claim the modest TV ratings of new AFL club GWS may deter NRL expansion in 2015.
There are suggestions the NRL may wait until 2018 before pushing further around Australia. A final decision will be made in August.
West Australian billionaire Tony Sage, who wants an NRL team, said a Perth team should happen - maybe even through relocation.
"We are keen to get Perth involved in any capacity and there are fantastic opportunities in Perth," Sage said.
"It's a long way off but if a team does want to relocate, I would put my hand up to help with ongoing costs. Some teams may be finding it difficult in the marketplace at the moment and there is huge sponsorship potential over here.
"It seems all teams though are surviving at the moment but I still think Perth would work."

http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/nr...on-adam-reynolds/story-fn7shzfu-1226439782180

lol like GWS getting sub 8k crowds has any relvance to what any of the bids will draw in crowds!

ps Sage frick off, WA doesn't want youinvolved in RL, get the message matey!

 

[docbrown]

The AFL puts an expansion team in a non-heartland area where nobody asked for one and where the AFL already has a team and after 30 years still lags behind other sports.... and people wonder why GWS are struggling.

If/when the NRL expands the main difference will be that the people there actually WANT a team. :lol:

 

[Perth Red]

Does make you wonder why journals would publish such rubbish? Do they really think GWS crowds have any influence what so ever on NRL expansion?

 

[docbrown]

Does make you wonder why journals would publish such rubbish? Do they really think GWS crowds have any influence what so ever on NRL expansion?

Really it's a nothing story with no new information and quotes that don't reflect the lead in.

It's just there to create conflict to make a space filler seem like something more than what it is.

 

[gyallop]

Thanks for that , central capras aren't part of the CQ Bid they were with the Broncos last year not sure of this year but I hear that the Capras and the CQ bid don't get on.
How does the relationship between north Sydney south sydney and the CC bid work?

 

[flippikat]

Thanks for that , central capras aren't part of the CQ Bid they were with the Broncos last year not sure of this year but I hear that the Capras and the CQ bid don't get on.
How does the relationship between north Sydney south sydney and the CC bid work?

I suspect that Norths will end their relationship as Souths NSW Cup "feeder team" (read 'reserves team' basically), if the CC Bears are admitted to the NRL.

The next question would be "Will North Sydney Bears (playing out of North Sydney Oval) be the CC Bears Feeder?" Or will the CC have it's own CC-based NSW Cup team?

 

[gyallop]

They might try a dual feeder club system , the Qld clubs have at least 2. It would be hypocritical of what they say is the population base and playing strength of CC to have only a Sydney feeder club.

 

[flippikat]

They might try a dual feeder club system , the Qld clubs have at least 2. It would be hypocritical of what they say is the population base and playing strength of CC to have only a Sydney feeder club.

Good point, and I think it's the way to go if they are admitted to the NRL.

Who knows, it might encourage few more non-Sydney NSW teams to be in the NSW cup, and make it a bit more like the Qld Cup?

 

[Bro Bear]

South Sydney are all behind the CC Bears bid. CC Bears will have a NS Bears and CC team in the NSW Cup I believe. However, I believe the ARLC are looking at remodeling the reserve grade comp between the QLD and NSW Cup teams, that being one reason why the expansion may be delayed for several for years.

At the moment NS Bears fans are all supportive of the Rabbitohs and are appreciative of the arrangment between these two foundation clubs.

 

[Goddo]

The Bears offer the game more than what some of the current Sydney clubs are offering.

I agree that the model is a good one (Gosford/North Sydney split club like St George). But that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem in Sydney, and their bid will be rightly viewed through that prism. No point robbing Peter to pay Paul in NSW, while neglecting Queensland, WA, NZ.

Some of these Sydney clubs are struggling to get 10,000 to games yet when you suggest that they take games to other areas some people snap. That doesn't bother me, the numbers are what they are they're just too proud to admit it.

The fact is Manly won't work playing 6 games in Brookvale and 6 at Gosford. Manly just isn't that well liked on the Coast. They have their fans but not enough to make a long term transition. And since the Northern Eagles fiasco, I doubt anybody would take it seriously as it would be perceived to be just another cash grab.

Northern Eagles was 10 years ago now. People move on. But what future is there for a club like Manly? Their home is nasty, they get low crowds. Options? Do you force Manly out of the comp or interstate to accomidate the Bears, or do you simply over look the Bears and leave the market to Manly (which is much easier to do)?

I am firmly of the belief that the game should not expand in a way that will harm the current clubs/brands. And while the Bears brand might be stronger than a few, the market is already saturated while others have nothing. We are a national league:

1. without representation in the 4th biggest city which has huge potential and a unique TV slot, and
2. our second biggest market (the third biggest city in the country) has the same number of sides as the Shire, Townsville and Canberra.

Another team might fully relocate there but then it doesn't have the benefit of addressing North Sydney. And it just creates the North Sydney problem in yet another part of Sydney. I don't want to see any Sydney clubs totally relocated.

I'd rather see 2 Sydney teams merge and create a team bigger than what they currently would if they were to remain seperate. In time they'd gain more than what they'd lose in the short term and if people are blinded to see the truth for what it is then so be it. As soon as the merged club starts performing on the field you see those people drift back.

If this were to happen you would no longer be able to use the NSW licence excuse against the Bears as the number of licences would remain the same and in fact be directly covering a greater area.

Its not a "NSW licence excuse". Its a real thing - 7.5M people, 10 teams.

You agree that 10 Sydney clubs is not sustainable (I think its questionable at 9 but a different argument), yet you believe we should be looking to bring in the Bears to address a distribution problem in North Sydney/Gosford and either merge or relocate an existing side to accomidate them.

I have absolutely no problem with that at all. But good luck making it happen - I can guarentee the ARLC won't be looking to damage/shift any existing brands. The clubs themselves will have to want it. Which they won't.

So where does that leave the Bears bid, competing with the obvious choices in future like Perth, Brisbane, Central Queensland, Wellington, Adelaide? The Bears can't beat satisfactory bids from these locations, because they are simply better options for expansion. It happened in 2007 and will happen again in 2015, and again after that.

- or -

Extend the comp by one week.
Every team plays 25 games.
In a 20 team comp this results in 10 additional games.
Some/all these game venues could be given to 1 Sydney team that partially relocates (other than Gosford) or split over 2 Sydney team that partially relocate (other than Gosford).

Some of these Sydney clubs are struggling to get crowd interest for 12 games a year. If they had 6-7 in Sydney and then 9-10 or so at their new base, they'd benefit from a consolidation effect.

Won't happen, so pointless discussing.

I agree that there are other areas that are more urgent but the question has to be asked will the Bears be there 5-10 years from now.

So Perth/Brisbane now, but look at the Bears in future as part of a NSW reshuffle? That would be a logical outcome.

If they aren't, then you lose the whole benefit of the North Sydney re-engagement. None of your other permutations address that.
People might claim that North Sydney is as a league mad as it ever was but it's just not the case. Manly have failed on this front because they have remained confined to their own enclave (likewise why they won't work on the Coast).

Permutations? I'm simply pointing out hard truths.

I agree that North Sydney is a mess. The whole of Sydney is. We have Souths playing in the West, Wests in the East, niche's like Manly and Cronulla in, but places like North Sydney out, a team half in the south of Sydney half in Wollongong with another in between, teams with few fans in 40/80k stadiums, others at run down suburban parks, another with very few fans but a lot of pokies and juniors.

The Bears should be part of these discussions. You can hardly call them 'expanding the game' though. Questions need to be asked about a few clubs:

Penrith (huge juniors, but can't make their brand work. Is an NRL licence necissary to get the best from the region? Maybe not: plenty of other clubs fans in the West. I guess thats the problem for Penrith)
Cronulla (is there a future in being surrounded by a stronger bigger brand? Do we need two clubs in the south?)
Manly (like Cronulla, a niche club with a run down stadium)
Roosters (seem to have no fans)

BUT this isn't a discussion that is relevant to expansion (unless you are a Bears fan). The two are different issues:

1. Rationalising or sorting Sydney/NSW
2. Expanding the game into new/big markets to improve the national footprint.

 

[docbrown]

I agree that the model is a good one (Gosford/North Sydney split club like St George). But that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem in Sydney, and their bid will be rightly viewed through that prism. No point robbing Peter to pay Paul in NSW, while neglecting Queensland, WA, NZ.

At no point have I suggested that the Central Coast is more urgent than Perth or Brisbane. In fact your whole argument is predicated around me suggesting that when in fact I have done nothing of the sort. You're actually arguing with yourself...

HOWEVER - I did intimate that if the Bears were to be denied again the incentive for them to organise a 3rd reentry attempt may wane - especially if the the NRL gives them no support like in the past. The ARLC may come up with a strategy for them, who knows?

But if the Bears/Central Coast attempt falls over permanently then no other Central Coast bid attempt would even come close and relocating a Sydney team to Gosford only creates new problems.

Losing the Bears involvement on the Central Coast would be a great shame upon the ARLC.

Northern Eagles was 10 years ago now. People move on.

Hmm... if there's any sport where "people moving on" isn't the case, it's rugby league. People are still angry about Super League and that predates the Northern Eagles.

Hell, some Rugby League fans are still pissed off at Rugby Union and they weren't even born when the schism occured...

Of all the sports fans, I'd say Rugby Leagues fans know how to best hold grudges.

or do you simply over look the Bears and leave the market to Manly (which is much easier to do)??

Manly have had almost a decade of having everything north of the harbour to themselves. What have they done with it? Nothing.

That said I do not suggest booting them from the comp. The current team presence in Sydney needs to be maintained. They may not be the team to reengage the rest of North Sydney but they have strong value as a national sports brand.

You agree that 10 Sydney clubs is not sustainable (I think its questionable at 9 but a different argument), yet you believe we should be looking to bring in the Bears to address a distribution problem in North Sydney/Gosford and either merge or relocate an existing side to accomidate them.

I'm not going to get into a "which Sydney clubs are sustainable" argument and name specific clubs that I think will get left behind long term as I couldn't be f**ked arguing with the individual supporters of those clubs.

The NRL want a presence in Newcastle, Wollongong and Canberra and don't want to go backwards in those regions. That leaves 8 sydney clubs (9 if you want to include the Dragons again). Of those 9 five are sustainable as they are with only tweaks to management and long term revenue sources etc.

The other 4 have long term brand problems. Of those 4 only one will benefit from a major population which really leaves 3 teams that will be left behind the others.

So yes my suggestion is to merge 2 of those 3 or partially relocate (to a mid to strong rugby league area) by adjusting the nature of the draw.

Of those 3 teams though, the Central Coast Bears are definitely much more valuable than they are in their present form.

So where does that leave the Bears bid, competing with the obvious choices in future like Perth, Brisbane, Central Queensland, Wellington, Adelaide? The Bears can't beat satisfactory bids

Two of those areas are nowhere near ready and I doubt they will be ready even 10 years from now.

The Central Coast were ready yesterday and if you're qualification is satisfactory bids the Bears are at worst 3rd in line but more likely 2nd given the lack of clarity on the two Brisbane bids.

Won't happen, so pointless discussing.

Well pack up your imagination and go home then. Seriously, how would you like me to respond to that comment on a forum dedicated purely to hypotheticals.

Your comment is pointless...

BUT this isn't a discussion that is relevant to expansion (unless you are a Bears fan).

Of course it is because expansion can only happen if the existing competition is ready for it. These teams need to fit inside an existing framework and as you've suggested yourself, that existing framework is far from perfect. Rather than just ignore those problems, the common sense solution is to approach both at the same time rather than adding a bunch of teams and then trying to sort it out later.

For the record, I'm not a Bears fan. I'm not a Queenslander pushing for a Queensland team. I'm not in Western Australia pushing for a Perth team. I don't live in any of the bid areas. I already have my own team and I won't be changing my alleigances.

So above all I'm just talking from a logical and creative perspective to counter the constant negativity that occurs on here from those trying to push an agenda.

 

[flippikat]

Losing the Bears involvement on the Central Coast would be a great shame upon the ARLC.



Hmm... if there's any sport where "people moving on" isn't the case, it's rugby league. People are still angry about Super League and that predates the Northern Eagles.

Hell, some Rugby League fans are still pissed off at Rugby Union and they weren't even born when the schism occured...

Of all the sports fans, I'd say Rugby Leagues fans know how to best hold grudges.



Manly have had almost a decade of having everything north of the harbour to themselves. What have they done with it? Nothing.

That said I do not suggest booting them from the comp. The current team presence in Sydney needs to be maintained. They may not be the team to reengage the rest of North Sydney but they have strong value as a national sports brand.

Just picking up on the whole "relationship between the Sea Eagles and the North Shore/Central Coast public" theme above - from what I understand, Manly missed opportunities to connect with the Central Coast public.

* The best obviously was the Northern Eagles. Putting aside the rivalry between Norths & Manly was a bridge too far, it's true.. but you can only look at the area that club encompassed and wonder "What if the partnership was more civil".

* After the Northern Eagles fell apart, it gets tougher - and I'm not sure how Manly could connect with the North Shore.

However on the Central Coast.. maybe (just *maybe*) if they made an honest and genuine effort to stay engaged - BEFORE the Central Coast Bears bid gains critical mass - could we currently have northern equivalent to St George-Illawarra?

By that I mean a super-regional team: combining a Sydney area with a stretch of the NSW coast outside of Sydney, playing a 50-50 mix of home games inside and outside of Sydney. Actually the comparision even includes a wee enclave that hates that team! (Only that the old Norths area wouldn't have a team like Cronulla would..)


Which brings us to now.

If the Bears bid doesn't win an expansion spot this time, and falls over - would Manly be able to connect with the Central Coast at all? Would the Central Coast accept them? Do Manly want to do it?

The signs point to "No" on all counts - but if was a case of "Eagles or nothing" would that sway the Coast's public?
If redevelopment of Brookvale stalls, or finances take a hit, would that sway the Eagles attitude towards the Coast?

 

[docbrown]

If the Bears bid doesn't win an expansion spot this time, and falls over - would Manly be able to connect with the Central Coast at all? Would the Central Coast accept them? Do Manly want to do it?

That's the thing. They have to want to do that.

Manly never really wanted to merge.
Manly never really wanted to play 6 games at Gosford.
Manly never really wanted to drop the Manly-Warringah & 'Sea' part of their brand.
Manly never really wanted to promote their brand outside of their enclave.

And based on current observations they still don't seem interested in doing it, let alone adopting a new 'Central Coast' moniker.

So why would Central Coast people ever embrace them as their own? They most likely wouldn't.

By reengaging people in North Sydney in Rugby League, the Bears would actually help Manly by making rugby league - and that rivalry - the sporting focal point. Tribalism is a brilliant marketing tool. And it's not just Manly that would benefit - all the clubs on the edges of the Bears' territory - Knights, Parramatta, Tigers etc - would benefit in such a manner.

However it's sad that Manly can't see that. They only see the Bears eating into their area - the same area in which the Sea Eagles have failed...

 

[CC_Roosters]

Just picking up on the whole "relationship between the Sea Eagles and the North Shore/Central Coast public" theme above - from what I understand, Manly missed opportunities to connect with the Central Coast public.

* The best obviously was the Northern Eagles. Putting aside the rivalry between Norths & Manly was a bridge too far, it's true.. but you can only look at the area that club encompassed and wonder "What if the partnership was more civil".

* After the Northern Eagles fell apart, it gets tougher - and I'm not sure how Manly could connect with the North Shore.

However on the Central Coast.. maybe (just *maybe*) if they made an honest and genuine effort to stay engaged - BEFORE the Central Coast Bears bid gains critical mass - could we currently have northern equivalent to St George-Illawarra?

By that I mean a super-regional team: combining a Sydney area with a stretch of the NSW coast outside of Sydney, playing a 50-50 mix of home games inside and outside of Sydney. Actually the comparision even includes a wee enclave that hates that team! (Only that the old Norths area wouldn't have a team like Cronulla would..)


Which brings us to now.

If the Bears bid doesn't win an expansion spot this time, and falls over - would Manly be able to connect with the Central Coast at all? Would the Central Coast accept them? Do Manly want to do it?

The signs point to "No" on all counts - but if was a case of "Eagles or nothing" would that sway the Coast's public?
If redevelopment of Brookvale stalls, or finances take a hit, would that sway the Eagles attitude towards the Coast?

i think manly are one of the better supported sides on the coast so they would have a decent base to build on in any case. on the other hand rusted on fans of other clubs make up the bulk of the rugby league public here and most of those despise manly so its difficult on that point alone

 

[t-ba]

Manly has alot of support on the North Shore and the Central Coast. Then again, we also have a lot of hate. I know a lot of people who support Union, have never had anything to do with RL and still absolutely hate Manly. It's quite strange.

Serious branding issues however. We're drawing less now than we did 40 years ago...I think the club has potential on the Lower and Middle North Shore (Even if the Bears do come back), since the two regions have grown into cultural extensions of each other over the last 20-30 years. When the Bears were moving to Gosford they actually rather shamefully cutting the Lower North Shore clubs loose and merging the powerful Upper North Shore clubs into the CC Competion (To be fair, they'd been crap and only one was fielding junior outfits by that stage). At that point Manly was the district they looked likely to move into. I do think that eventually the Lower North Shore would have ended up Manly territory. Places like Mosman already have pretty strong support.

We've got a good supporter Base. The club simply needs to engage them better. If Brookvale doesn't get redeveloped, it's time to bite the bullet and shift to another venue. We've get enough fans in Sydney to get a good deal from one of the two big stadiums and hopefully draw above 10,000 to our games.

We'll never do the Central Coast. I think the Sunshine Coast team was actually our long term 'emergency plan.'

 

[flippikat]

Manly has alot of support on the North Shore and the Central Coast. Then again, we also have a lot of hate. I know a lot of people who support Union, have never had anything to do with RL and still absolutely hate Manly. It's quite strange.

Serious branding issues however. We're drawing less now than we did 40 years ago...I think the club has potential on the Lower and Middle North Shore (Even if the Bears do come back), since the two regions have grown into cultural extensions of each other over the last 20-30 years.

When the Bears were moving to Gosford they actually rather shamefully cutting the Lower North Shore clubs loose and merging the powerful Upper North Shore clubs into the CC Competion (To be fair, they'd been crap and only one was fielding junior outfits by that stage). At that point Manly was the district they looked likely to move into. I do think that eventually the Lower North Shore would have ended up Manly territory. Places like Mosman already have pretty strong support.

We've got a good supporter Base. The club simply needs to engage them better. If Brookvale doesn't get redeveloped, it's time to bite the bullet and shift to another venue. We've get enough fans in Sydney to get a good deal from one of the two big stadiums and hopefully draw above 10,000 to our games.

We'll never do the Central Coast. I think the Sunshine Coast team was actually our long term 'emergency plan.'

Interesting.. so if the Bears bid gets knocked back again, does this mean the Manly is likely to puch further into the North Shore area (bringing in more clubs, gaining supporters etc) rather than trying to connect with the Central Coast to strengthen it's future?

It strikes me as a waste to not have a club playing at least a 4 -5 games a season there.

It's a shame that post-Northern Eagles, Manly didn't take up the challenge to try and become a regional club (rather than a Sydney-based club).

However, if that had succeeded then the Bears would have been faced with 3 choices:

- Accepting they're going to be a lower grade team only (give up on NRL aspirations)
- Try to come back as North Sydney in the NRL (Unlikely to get NRL approval, unless the Bears pull-off some legal miracle)
or
- Ally themselves with another outside-of-Sydney expansion bid - Central Queensland Bears, anyone?

 

[Perth Red]

If they don't get in then the NRL should hang its head, not because they haven't let them but for not telling them back in 2007 to relocate the bid to a strategically important area. The Perth or Brisbane Bears could have been a great outcome for both the NRL and NS Bears.

 

[t-ba]

Interesting.. so if the Bears bid gets knocked back again, does this mean the Manly is likely to puch further into the North Shore area (bringing in more clubs, gaining supporters etc) rather than trying to connect with the Central Coast to strengthen it's future?

It strikes me as a waste to not have a club playing at least a 4 -5 games a season there.

It's a shame that post-Northern Eagles, Manly didn't take up the challenge to try and become a regional club (rather than a Sydney-based club).

However, if that had succeeded then the Bears would have been faced with 3 choices:

- Accepting they're going to be a lower grade team only (give up on NRL aspirations)
- Try to come back as North Sydney in the NRL (Unlikely to get NRL approval, unless the Bears pull-off some legal miracle)
or
- Ally themselves with another outside-of-Sydney expansion bid - Central Queensland Bears, anyone?

Manly was never going to go to the Central Coast. The bad blood between the two clubs built up over 50 years and the Joint Venture pretty much sealed it. (We took the cash, yes. But when you looked at the other mooted offers, like the 'Parramatta Bears' in Blue and Gold Playing exclusively out of Parramatta and the 'Newcastle Knights' in Red and Blue with a couple of 'throw me a bone' fixtures in Gosford were probably worse alternatives than what ultimately happened. At least the Bears still have an identity)

By the time the JV collapsed (And as far as I'm concerned, mea culpa on the North Sydney Leagues clubs both for refusing to throw the house at the club in 1999 to save them and the cynical withdrawal of funds to try and steal MANLY's license in 2001), the Manly brand was absolute poison and was essentially on death row.

The CC is bears town, simple as. And they deserve it. It's simply outrageous that a clubs money and effort to expand the game into fertile ground was met with a rather viscous culling. The Northern Suburbs needs at least one team, and that team is Manly, for better or worse. It will take a couple of generations, but the shift in the Lower and Middle North Shore has begun. Most of my family have been following the Bears since they got off the boat but my cousins who are too young to remember the Bears are all Manly fans to the last one.

Edit: I've always liked the Bears however. Some of my best childhood memories are playing in the old Moreton Bay fig. I always supported Manly but the Bears and the NSDJRFL were a big part of my younger years. And it's sad that kids on the North Shore have lost that.