NRL Expansion. Ideas and opinions.

[greenBV4]

Is there an official catchment map with defined boundries floating around somewhere? for years Ive done quick google searches trying to find one but all I can ever seem to find are detail-lacking rough photoshop jobs by fans and not official sources

and yeah I agree its wacky that the bears have been able to maintain their own junior catchment if no other nsw cup side has, i get its probably because of their desire to rejoin but the area could always just be gifted back if that were ever the case.

 

[mongoose]

The other Sydney reconfiguration that should be considered is Cronulla moving most of their games to Wollongong and the Dragons moving most of their games to the SFS.

Cronulla > Adelaide or NZ... Dragons > Wollongong
Souths can take over the whole south of Sydney

Tigers > Perth
Bulldogs taking the whole inner west and southwest

Manly > central coast
Roosters and Eels taking over North Sydney.

 

[T-Boon]

Manly > central coast
Roosters and Eels taking over North Sydney.

My only criticism here is I don't like Manly to central coast because I think Newcastle is best placed to take over CC.
CC, Lake Macquarie, Newcastle and Hunter Valley is not big enough for 2 teams but it is a good size for 1.

 

[reanimate]

Is there an official catchment map with defined boundries floating around somewhere? for years Ive done quick google searches trying to find one but all I can ever seem to find are detail-lacking rough photoshop jobs by fans and not official sources

and yeah I agree its wacky that the bears have been able to maintain their own junior catchment if no other nsw cup side has, i get its probably because of their desire to rejoin but the area could always just be gifted back if that were ever the case.

Not really, the closest you can get is looking at the NSWRL districts site - https://www.nswrl.com.au/junior-rugby-league/junior-league-districts/ and then looking at an area you’re not sure about to see which catchment they fall in. As you can see, every Sydney district is aligned with an NRL club, bar the North Sydney district. It’s an anomaly that needs to go.

As you said, if the Bears are readmitted into the NRL in some form, then they can have the conversation as to what to do with what was their old district. Until then, it should get the Newtown treatment and get handed over to other teams.

 

[Perth Red]

Tim Mander, ex NRL ref now Libs pollie, making case for expansion outside major cities.

https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/subscriptions/premium-offer/

 

[The Great Dane]

Tim Mander, ex NRL ref now Libs pollie, making case for expansion outside major cities.

https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/subscriptions/premium-offer/

It's behind a paywall and I endeavor to give News as little of my money as possible, so can you please give us the gist of what he's saying.

 

[Perth Red]

It's behind a paywall and I endeavor to give News as little of my money as possible, so can you please give us the gist of what he's saying.

libs promising sunny coast stadium upgrade if they get in, and saying nrl should look to regional centres for expansion to boost economies and local communities.

 

[The Great Dane]

libs promising sunny coast stadium upgrade if they get in, and saying nrl should look to regional centres for expansion to boost economies and local communities.

There's not really much value in the NRL adding more regional teams to the league, at least not while larger markets are on the table. It sucks as well because there's a bunch of potential in those regional markets like the Sunshine Coast but in the current set up there's simply nowhere for them to go where they can make a real go of it.

I'm not the first to say it, but the game (and Australian sports in general) is way too top heavy and the real significant growth (and expansion) is in the lower tiers. But because of a few groups with big egos and too much power, whom put themselves and their interests before those of the game as a whole, we let opportunities to grow interest, engagement, and investment in the game slip away.

Regional fans don't do themselves any favours either.
I was saying to a friend recently that imagine where the sport would be if RL fans on the Sunshine Coast were showing up to Falcons matches in the numbers that they are to Storm games (keeping in mind that their attendance is capped by covid as well). I mean we might actually be seriously discussing adding the Falcons directly into the NRL right now if they were pulling a 5-10k+ average, but they're not because the locals are content watching the NRL on TV instead of putting some effort in and supporting the local team.

 

[T-Boon]

libs promising sunny coast stadium upgrade if they get in, and saying nrl should look to regional centres for expansion to boost economies and local communities.

Toowoomba would be a good location.

 

[mongoose]

There's not really much value in the NRL adding more regional teams to the league, at least not while larger markets are on the table. It sucks as well because there's a bunch of potential in those regional markets like the Sunshine Coast but in the current set up there's simply nowhere for them to go where they can make a real go of it.

I'm not the first to say it, but the game (and Australian sports in general) is way too top heavy and the real significant growth (and expansion) is in the lower tiers. But because of a few groups with big egos and too much power, whom put themselves and their interests before those of the game as a whole, we let opportunities to grow interest, engagement, and investment in the game slip away.

Regional fans don't do themselves any favours either.
I was saying to a friend recently that imagine where the sport would be if RL fans on the Sunshine Coast were showing up to Falcons matches in the numbers that they are to Storm games (keeping in mind that their attendance is capped by covid as well). I mean we might actually be seriously discussing adding the Falcons directly into the NRL right now if they were pulling a 5-10k+ average, but they're not because the locals are content watching the NRL on TV instead of putting some effort in and supporting the local team.

If the Falcons were promoted though, they would probably get a massive boost in crowd numbers.

 

[T-Boon]

Have four teams that play 8 game in Brisbane each and 4 games in another city. So North Brisbane Dolphins for example 8 games at Suncorp and 4 at Sunshine Coast.
Broncos: 8 games Brisbane and 4 games Toowoomba.

 

[Perth Red]

Have four teams that play 8 game in Brisbane each and 4 games in another city. So North Brisbane Dolphins for example 8 games at Suncorp and 4 at Sunshine Coast.
Broncos: 8 games Brisbane and 4 games Toowoomba.

Sounds good in theory but doesnt seem to have helped the only club that has tried this, the Dragons. Their membership isnt great and their finances have been precarious.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

A full-time NRL Division 2 (without promotion & relegation) would help here. It would be a fairly decent lineup too:

PNG Hunters
Kaviti Silktails
Pacifique XIII
New Zealand 2
Sunshine Coast Falcons
Redcliffe Dolphins
North Brisbane Devils
East Brisbane Tigers
Logan Magpies
Wynnum-Manly Seagulls
Ipswich Jets
Burleigh Bears
Tweed Seagulls
North Sydney Bears
Newtown Jets
Wyong Roos
WA Pirates
Adelaide (or a slot for them if / when any bidders want to bid to enter a team)

With the international flavour, relatively wide footprint in Australia and the mix of traditional and new clubs it could be a very popular comp that would attract sponsors and rate well enough on TV to get at least an NBL level TV deal to allow it to be a full-time comp that is also affordable for these clubs to play in at the same time (players salaries will be much lower than the NRL).

The NRL then have a pool of potential active clubs to choose from when they want to expand and if they need to make room for that expansion, they have a viable pro comp to demote teams into that won't destroy them.

Example 1: although Manly would prefer to play in the top flight, being demoted to this comp, remaining a full-time outfit and rekindling their rivalry with the bears in that context would be much more palatable than being demoted to the NSW Cup as it currently stands.

Example 2: if the Gold Coast Titans can't manage to turn things around, the NRL have both Burleigh or Tweed operating as pro clubs in NRL 2 that can step in and take the licence.

Clubs like WA, Adelaide, Easts Tigers, Redcliffe, Sunshine Coast, Central Coast and Ipswich (or any other club with top flight ambitions like North Sydney) can all prove their ability to run pro clubs, build ratings, attendances and memberships to push their case for inclusion in the top flight.

 

[Perth Red]

A full-time NRL Division 2 (without promotion & relegation) would help here. It would be a fairly decent lineup too:

PNG Hunters
Kaviti Silktails
Pacifique XIII
New Zealand 2
Sunshine Coast Falcons
Redcliffe Dolphins
North Brisbane Devils
East Brisbane Tigers
Logan Magpies
Wynnum-Manly Seagulls
Ipswich Jets
Burleigh Bears
Tweed Seagulls
North Sydney Bears
Newtown Jets
Wyong Roos
WA Pirates
Adelaide (or a slot for them if / when any bidders want to bid to enter a team)

With the international flavour, relatively wide footprint in Australia and the mix of traditional and new clubs it could be a very popular comp that would attract sponsors and rate well enough on TV to get at least an NBL level TV deal to allow it to be a full-time comp that is also affordable for these clubs to play in at the same time (players salaries will be much lower than the NRL).

The NRL then have a pool of potential active clubs to choose from when they want to expand and if they need to make room for that expansion, they have a viable pro comp to demote teams into that won't destroy them.

Example 1: although Manly would prefer to play in the top flight, being demoted to this comp, remaining a full-time outfit and rekindling their rivalry with the bears in that context would be much more palatable than being demoted to the NSW Cup as it currently stands.

Example 2: if the Gold Coast Titans can't manage to turn things around, the NRL have both Burleigh or Tweed operating as pro clubs in NRL 2 that can step in and take the licence.

Clubs like WA, Adelaide, Easts Tigers, Redcliffe, Sunshine Coast, Central Coast and Ipswich (or any other club with top flight ambitions like North Sydney) can all prove their ability to run pro clubs, build ratings, attendances and memberships to push their case for inclusion in the top flight.

Where would the $120million plus a year come from to fund this? Youd need a club grant of at elast $5mill a year and around $20-30mil a year in competition running costs. People arent interested in a second tire sport so your not generating much in fan revenue, tv coverage or sponsors sadly. You are also then in competition for talent with NRL reserve grade.

SL has a salary cap of around $4mill and a TV deal worth around $75mill, you'd want to be at that level to make this work at least.

Its great in theory and would be awesome to see but I just see how it financially stack sup.

 

[mongoose]

Seems like you are basically turning the QLD cup into a more national/pacific comp, but like Perth Red said, what about the NSW cup, Does that just remain as it is? It's going to have most of the best reserve grade players still.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Where would the $120million plus a year come from to fund this? Youd need a club grant of at elast $5mill a year and around $20-30mil a year in competition running costs. People arent interested in a second tire sport so your not generating much in fan revenue, tv coverage or sponsors sadly. You are also then in competition for talent with NRL reserve grade.

SL has a salary cap of around $4mill and a TV deal worth around $75mill, you'd want to be at that level to make this work at least.

Its great in theory and would be awesome to see but I just see how it financially stack sup.

I'm not going to pretend to know what a comp like that would sell for to Fox and Nine but a new product would have some value to them, especially since both are showing NSW / QLD Cup games currently. This would be a comp that would be more attractive to sponsors and fans due to the mix of clubs in it (international flavour, traditional and new). I'm sure a negotiator worth their salt could negotiate a broadcast deal similar to what the NBL can get which will fund it. Also, some of the NRL funding that goes to the NSW and QLD Cups can be redirected to this comp and they then become third teir comps.

I'm not sure what you mean about NRL reserve grade, it doesn't exist. The player issue can easily be solved like it has been this year. Larger squad sizes for NRL clubs, no reserves and the NRL Div 2 clubs can have dual registration or partnerships with NSW / QLD Cup clubs like the NRL clubs do now.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Seems like you are basically turning the QLD cup into a more national/pacific comp, but like Perth Red said, what about the NSW cup, Does that just remain as it is? It's going to have most of the best reserve grade players still.

Essentially yes, the biggest clubs that aren't currently in the NRL sprinkled with new expansion hopefuls. NSW and QLD cup then become third teir comps feeding NRL 2. NRL clubs can have largers squads like they do this year.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I'd have some of those clubs merge so they represent a larger fanbase and have more resources to draw from.

 

[Perth Red]

I'm not going to pretend to know what a comp like that would sell for to Fox and Nine but a new product would have some value to them, especially since both are showing NSW / QLD Cup games currently. This would be a comp that would be more attractive to sponsors and fans due to the mix of clubs in it (international flavour, traditional and new). I'm sure a negotiator worth their salt could negotiate a broadcast deal similar to what the NBL can get which will fund it. Also, some of the NRL funding that goes to the NSW and QLD Cups can be redirected to this comp and they then become third teir comps.

I'm not sure what you mean about NRL reserve grade, it doesn't exist. The player issue can easily be solved like it has been this year. Larger squad sizes for NRL clubs, no reserves and the NRL Div 2 clubs can have dual registration or partnerships with NSW / QLD Cup clubs like the NRL clubs do now.

You're not going to sell it to fox as it is unlikely to add more subscribers who dont already follow RL on Fox. FTA may be interested in it can generate a big enough audience but that would require it to be in TV time slots already filled by NRL?
Whilst it will have its attraction, outside of soccer in UK, I cant think of a second tier professional comp that draws big crowds or sponsorships?
Agree that that the NSw and Wlnd cup money could, not that QRL and NSWRL woudl ever let that happen. I think that is around $30mill a year.

NRL reserve grade does exist in everything but name with a hotch potch of actual reserve grade sides in Sydney and club dual registrations in other places. The NRL clubs without pokies are the ones who cant afford to run their own reserve grade side it seems. Good luck getting NSWRL and QRL to agree to being third tier organisations lol.
Having some of these second division clubs as dual reg clubs for NRL clubs would create massive discrepancies in playing talent in the second division and turn fans off.

Like I said I would love to see it but it looks very unfeasible and lacking viability as an idea.

Best chance of it working would be to have NRL clubs have genuine reserve grade and then top 5 clubs from NSW and Qlnd cups with a sprinkling of expansion areas.
You could then have a P&R situation from third division NSW and Qlnd cup comps to replace the lowest placed nsw and Qlnd clubs in the second division each year. Wont happen due to cost though.

 

[The Great Dane]

You're not going to sell it to fox as it is unlikely to add more subscribers who dont already follow RL on Fox. FTA may be interested in it can generate a big enough audience but that would require it to be in TV time slots already filled by NRL?
Whilst it will have its attraction, outside of soccer in UK, I cant think of a second tier professional comp that draws big crowds or sponsorships?
Agree that that the NSw and Wlnd cup money could, not that QRL and NSWRL woudl ever let that happen. I think that is around $30mill a year.

NRL reserve grade does exist in everything but name with a hotch potch of actual reserve grade sides in Sydney and club dual registrations in other places. The NRL clubs without pokies are the ones who cant afford to run their own reserve grade side it seems. Good luck getting NSWRL and QRL to agree to being third tier organisations lol.
Having some of these second division clubs as dual reg clubs for NRL clubs would create massive discrepancies in playing talent in the second division and turn fans off.

Like I said I would love to see it but it looks very unfeasible and lacking viability as an idea.

Best chance of it working would be to have NRL clubs have genuine reserve grade and then top 5 clubs from NSW and Qlnd cups with a sprinkling of expansion areas.
You could then have a P&R situation from third division NSW and Qlnd cup comps to replace the lowest placed nsw and Qlnd clubs in the second division each year. Wont happen due to cost though.

It depends how you define big crowds and sponsorship, but from where we are sitting all the second tier competitions in the major European soccer leagues, minor league baseball in the US, minor league hockey in Canada, and you could argue collegiate sports in the US and some others (though I accept that those situations aren't always totally applicable), are all relatively healthy, especially when compared to lower tiers in Australian sport.

But you are hitting on the biggest hurdle facing growth in the lower tiers in Australia, namely that they have been allowed to become so devalued that they are effectively worthless and it'll be hard to entice investment to build them up to a point where they are independently sustainable again, and you are going to have to accept that it's going to make a loss for a while (probably decades) as it's set up.

All I have to say to that is that nothing worth doing is easy and if there's a will there's a way.
Of course in reality there is no will, and the NRL only ever tries things it perceives to be easy.