NRL to buy share of Super League

[i0Nic]

Salford and Huddy suit the Championship not SL... Going to the second tier is not a death sentence that sums in the clubs believe it to be.... For me it suits them more ..... At least for now.... Any RL fans in Manchester had a very short journey to Wigan anyway

I am much more of a 12 team guy myself ..again at least for now

I'm not a heartland only warrior like some ( I live near London) but we need to strengthen the game where it exists first,...fish where the fish are

I think you need to do both. Give the comp a refresh by bringing back a favourite club like the bulls and at the same time bringing in a couple of expansion clubs including another in France. Drop Salford and huddersfield to make room.

 

[Taking The Two]

Based on evidence. Yes 15 years ago but no reason the city of Bradford wouldnt get behind them again in SL.

Swinton and Hunslet have no evidence at all they would draw a decent crowd and play in stadiums sub 4k lol

Data from 15-20 years ago, exactly. It's not exactly relevant or particularly useful data. In the last ten years, we have seen a Bradford go bust, leave Odsal to play at a 5,100 capacity stadium to move back to Odsal, that hasn't had any work done on it for 25 years, the corners of the pitches are raised like a gone off sandwich, the outer rim of the pitch is a mud heap for driving cars around and posted crowds of 2,234, 2655 and 2502 in 2024. Why is that data less relevant than "well, look at the crowds they got in 2000"?

Disaster?

I'll tell you what a disaster is ...

A. Pre crisis Salford playing in front of 3000 home fans most of last year despite making two major finals and being one of the best clubs

B. Broncos in 2023 playing in front of 500 home fans last time in SL (I was one of them for 3 games)

C. Huddy with 2-3000 home fans despite a great stadium and billionaire owner

Why Bradford?

It is a city of 400,000 people with a significant amount of RL interest ...strong amatuer scene, schools play it

Teams A-C have stadiums that beat the hell.out of Odsal but I can tell you now there is no where near the number of people who care and watch RL as in Bradford even combined

As a Rhinos fan I've spent many many hours in that big hole of a ground and have seen some amazing games with amazing atmospheres

Easter 2005 when we battered them in front of 23,000 fans.....Ieven as recently as 2019 when they were in the Championship and knocked us out of the CC....i can tell you now one cared that the toilets are rubbish or that the catering was not as good as the AJ Bell

Yes Bradford have been run badly in the past .....well let's ensure that doesbnit happen again as best we can and embrace the massive amount latent interest there still is in one the UKs biggest cities

Have to say another decade and that interest will likely be gone ....but some people think this is is an ok as long as a few hundred fans are still turning up.somewhere in London or Manchester

Also think about subscribers to SKY for RL.....there will be a lot more fans in Bradford willing to pay than there are in half of the current SL teams

Finally ...a strong and firing Bulls......give it a few years and a city as big as Bradford can easily help.fund a new stadium revamp or rebuild....if Wakey can do it then Bull certainly can....

You've summed my point up here. The standard of Super League with 12 clubs is, if we're honest, abysmal. As you say, we have Salford struggling to survive with tiny crowds, Cas playing in a ground that hasn't been modern since WWII, Huddersfield playing in front of nobody and are due to move out of town to play at a venue that has real issues in winter months and is somehow going to house three sides, a Catalans side paying for everyone else to fulfill their fixture list, a Saints side that has been hit hugely by the government loans needing repaid as they're one of the sides that actually own assets and a Hull side that are continually a joke.

Bradford then. You hark on about a Bradford side of TWENTY years ago, how the club was ran nearly a quarter of a century ago (that ultimately led to one of many downfalls). In the last ten years, Bradford have gone bust, played out of Dewsbury, have retruned to Odsal and have to contend with players quite literally walking out ankle deep in mud and dealing with the curled up corners of the pitch. I remember Sheffield winning the cup, Halifax finishing 3rd, all around the same time that you are harking back to on this nostalgia trip, get them back in. Wouldn't it be good if Sheffield could win an unlikely cup again or Halifax find the next Gavin Clinch and finish in the top 3? It's nostalgia.

Bradford could be a Super League club, they have some of the criteria we should be looking for but equally, they have other areas that they don't and we have Super League clubs at the minute that themselves are letting the rest of the top tier down and we need them up to scratch.

 

[Leighton Rhino]

Data from 15-20 years ago, exactly. It's not exactly relevant or particularly useful data. In the last ten years, we have seen a Bradford go bust, leave Odsal to play at a 5,100 capacity stadium to move back to Odsal, that hasn't had any work done on it for 25 years, the corners of the pitches are raised like a gone off sandwich, the outer rim of the pitch is a mud heap for driving cars around and posted crowds of 2,234, 2655 and 2502 in 2024. Why is that data less relevant than "well, look at the crowds they got in 2000"?



You've summed my point up here. The standard of Super League with 12 clubs is, if we're honest, abysmal. As you say, we have Salford struggling to survive with tiny crowds, Cas playing in a ground that hasn't been modern since WWII, Huddersfield playing in front of nobody and are due to move out of town to play at a venue that has real issues in winter months and is somehow going to house three sides, a Catalans side paying for everyone else to fulfill their fixture list, a Saints side that has been hit hugely by the government loans needing repaid as they're one of the sides that actually own assets and a Hull side that are continually a joke.

Bradford then. You hark on about a Bradford side of TWENTY years ago, how the club was ran nearly a quarter of a century ago (that ultimately led to one of many downfalls). In the last ten years, Bradford have gone bust, played out of Dewsbury, have retruned to Odsal and have to contend with players quite literally walking out ankle deep in mud and dealing with the curled up corners of the pitch. I remember Sheffield winning the cup, Halifax finishing 3rd, all around the same time that you are harking back to on this nostalgia trip, get them back in. Wouldn't it be good if Sheffield could win an unlikely cup again or Halifax find the next Gavin Clinch and finish in the top 3? It's nostalgia.

Bradford could be a Super League club, they have some of the criteria we should be looking for but equally, they have other areas that they don't and we have Super League clubs at the minute that themselves are letting the rest of the top tier down and we need them up to scratch.

Except I'm talking about the professional (SL era,) so it is entirely relevant to discuss the potentiality of Bulls.....fact is that they did and still can raise massive crowds if the Bradford public are given a platform

You are confusing Bradford as a potential market (my point ) with the entity if Bradford Bulls as a company ....it's been badly run yes ...

Huddy had been run much much better over that time

Huddy has never and never will pull the interest that Bradford did and still can

We need a well run Bradford club ...if we get it then we have a proven ability for its catchment to raise up to 20,000 fans a game

Salford have been fantastic on the field and get 2-3000 home fans last year

Huddy has been run superbly by a rich benefactor and gets 3000 or so

This is not about Bradford owners being poor I've the years or even about Odsal....it's about the fact that a city of 400,000 is a still a RL hot bed and has no full time team.....****ing crazy and if we don't sort it out soon we'll lose it......

But never mind eh....by 2030 Toulouse might break the 4000 attendance barrier regularly by fielding battered ex NRL players whilst not really spreading RL or creating more SKY subscribers

Halifax?? Are you joking ......you are making a point against yourself.....I went there as a Rhinos fan to Thurm ..it was about 5000 people ......again the size of Halifax means it is incomparable to Bradford

Sheffield winning the CC? Great... But again the potentiality of the market was and is nothing like Bradford...people there do not like RL...and will never

People in the city of Bradford still care and play the game...for now

There is literally no chance of ever replicating near that interest in terms of number of people elsewhere in a non heartland market like Sheffield or Toulouse

Pipe dreams and pins in maps.....the curse of RL

 

[Taking The Two]

If we "need" a strong Bradford, Bradford have to start being a strong Bradford. You simply cannot just promote a side based on factors from 25 years ago, totally ignoring the previous ten where their status had been precarious at different points. That's the point, you just can't go living in the past, which is UK Rugby League's problem, At varying points in the past, we've had successful clubs, like Hunslet and Swinton 100 years ago or Sheffield in the 90's, you can't just go promoting sides based merely on what they did under different ownership in a completely different era. The way in which people consume sport has changed massively in the time since Bradford were last in Super League, let alone when they were at their pomp. There's little correlation to them being a success now just because they were in 2000 (which ultimately led to their implosion a decade later).

The point remains, we need a strong Super League. We presently don't have that with 12 teams. If anything, we are a way off that. Salford may go to the wall before the year is out, Huddersfield are moving to Halifax to play on a questionable surface, Cas have a ground that hasn't been fit for purpose (a bit like Bradford) and you have various clubs that are heavily reliant on overseas players because they have such poor pathways, many clubs have no assets and many clubs are treading water. Now, is the answer to that to replace them with clubs who aren't at the standard of our worst sides or do we drag the existing clubs kicking and screaming into the 21st century, whilst challenging clubs like Bradford, London, York, Oldham, Widnes and Toulouse to continue the trajectory they're on? There's clubs in the Championship who have some positives, though they carry negatives - Bradford's is the dump they call a home and uncertain recent history, London's is fanbase, York, Oldham and Widnes need to grow revenue and crowds and Toulouse need to prove they have the financials to compete.

 

[Perth Red]

Not sure what your argument is, other than you don’t like SL lol.
are you suggesting we should leave SL as is with the current 12. Clubs and hope they can get better?

I’d say a 14 club SL without giants and reds and with Bradford, York, London and Toulouse in at least has a chance of growing the sport.

 

[Taking The Two]

Not sure what your argument is, other than you don’t like SL lol.
are you suggesting we should leave SL as is with the current 12. Clubs and hope they can get better?

I’d say a 14 club SL without giants and reds and with Bradford, York, London and Toulouse in at least has a chance of growing the sport.

I love Super League. I love rugby league. In fact, I think it’s the greatest sport there is but Rugby League in the UK has been ran by clowns for decades and we’re simply repeating history at this point (2009-2014), which was a period where 14 teams didn’t work, having teams below halfway in the table in with a chance of being champion didn’t work and where Bradford, Wakefield, London and Celtic Crusaders either went into administration or disappeared entirely during that period and a period that led to a reduced TV deal. I’m not sure that doing the same thing again and expecting different results is particularly well thought out and comes with a plan.

I think we should have stuck with 12, yes. I think we should have removed loop fixtures and played 22 league games and adopted a new format in the Challenge Cup to attempt to reinvigorate that competition, giving clubs guaranteed home games to replace those lost by the removal of loop games. The makeup of those 12 teams would be up for debate, certainly. I think we have 7 that are guaranteed an in on any scale that is used to determine league structure (Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Leeds, Hull FC, Hull KR and Catalans - maybe 8 with Wakefield’s growth). The remaining 5 spots are clubs that are much of a muchness (Huddersfield, Cas, Salford, Leigh) and some clubs from outside the current fold that are capable of competing but are probably a few years of planning and development away from being close to some of the current bottom sides (London, York, Widnes, Oldham, Toulouse, Bradford for reference). I think throwing in multiple clubs, which some think we should do, is premature, certainly at a few months notice, and counter productive when we are so close to a TV deal. Putting in part-time clubs, which multiple are in the Championship, at a few months notice will inevitably lead to blowout after blowout score, games with little meaning with so many in the league (and subsequently, drop off in attendances as was the case ‘09-‘14) and less of a selling point for the game when they go to broadcasters for a new TV deal.

 

[Perth Red]

How have you lumped Leigh Into that?

giants and reds need to be out of SL. cas have hope on the horizon when they finally get the stadium redevelopment money that’s coming their way.

reducing home game revenue would be a sure fire way if crippling clubs even more.

on the last point we agree, there is no rush and they should have chosen the clubs in October for a 2027 entry.

 

[Taking The Two]

How have you lumped Leigh Into that?

reducing home game revenue would be a sure fire way if crippling clubs even more.

on the last point we agree, there is no rush and they should have chosen the clubs in October for a 2027 entry.

I think there’s a ceiling with Leigh, unfortunately. They’re doing well but how much more can they grow given the size of the town? Anyway, it doesn’t really matterwho the 12 are as you could debate for days about who should and shouldn’t be in.

There’s no lost income. 11 home games in Super League and 2 guaranteed home games in the Challenge Cup, which can be added to Season Ticket packages, varies opponents and allows for clubs to look at revenue streams with 3rd kits/cup kits/charity shirts, so yeah, everyone plays the same amount of games as they do now, the cup gets a freshen up that isn’t putting Internationals and former Origin players against amateurs and allows for clubs to push revenue streams, potentially build relationships and PR with charities and gives clubs’ fixtures meaning till the end of the season as higher finishes will mean different pots for the Challenge Cup draw for the following season.

We could have easily stuck with 12, removed a club or two (maybe even 3) and replaced them with ‘new’ markets and/or expansion clubs in two or three years time so that clubs had a window to get themselves in order to have a chance of competing. Instead we have London (most likely) coming back in from part-time and pay-as-you-play contracts at a few months notice and that in itself damages the credibility and rep of the comp.

 

[Perth Red]

I think there’s a ceiling with Leigh, unfortunately. They’re doing well but how much more can they grow given the size of the town? Anyway, it doesn’t really matterwho the 12 are as you could debate for days about who should and shouldn’t be in.

There’s no lost income. 11 home games in Super League and 2 guaranteed home games in the Challenge Cup, which can be added to Season Ticket packages, varies opponents and allows for clubs to look at revenue streams with 3rd kits/cup kits/charity shirts, so yeah, everyone plays the same amount of games as they do now, the cup gets a freshen up that isn’t putting Internationals and former Origin players against amateurs and allows for clubs to push revenue streams, potentially build relationships and PR with charities and gives clubs’ fixtures meaning till the end of the season as higher finishes will mean different pots for the Challenge Cup draw for the following season.

We could have easily stuck with 12, removed a club or two (maybe even 3) and replaced them with ‘new’ markets and/or expansion clubs in two or three years time so that clubs had a window to get themselves in order to have a chance of competing. Instead we have London (most likely) coming back in from part-time and pay-as-you-play contracts at a few months notice and that in itself damages the credibility and rep of the comp.

They don’t need to, at least for a couple of decades. Min 7k crowd should be the SL low bar. 10k should be the longer term goal.

be interesting to know why the RFL feel the need to rush expansion next year and not bring it on with new tv contract in ‘27.

end of day many clubs have moved up from championships and built new squads in an off season. If 3 (likely) can do it at same time is the big question. Next year There will be some weak squads no doubt, hopefully it’s short term. The ten overseas players will help I suppose.

its very clear SL is going with the ‘more clubs equals more fans equals more viewers’ mentality for next tv deal negotiations.

 

[jason taylor]

They don’t need to, at least for a couple of decades. Min 7k crowd should be the SL low bar. 10k should be the longer term goal.

be interesting to know why the RFL feel the need to rush expansion next year and not bring it on with new tv contract in ‘27.

end of day many clubs have moved up from championships and built new squads in an off season. If 3 (likely) can do it at same time is the big question. Next year There will be some weak squads no doubt, hopefully it’s short term. The ten overseas players will help I suppose.

its very clear SL is going with the ‘more clubs equals more fans equals more viewers’ mentality for next tv deal negotiations.

Seems that one of the theories is that there's a fear that Toulouse gets in next season through the IMG ranking system. Toulouse replacing an English team would then have negative impacts on associated revenue and expenditure (Such as French fans don't subscribe to Sky Sports, etc)

To me, this is once again an example of a lack of strategic vision in actually growing the game over here. Sure, one of the fundamental issues is that a lot of the focus will necessarily be on the short term given the struggles a lot of the teams face (as detailed through the last few pages of this thread), but continuously finding short term fixes is not sustainable, as we have witnessed through the debacle that has been Salford this season.

 

[Taking The Two]

Seems that one of the theories is that there's a fear that Toulouse gets in next season through the IMG ranking system. Toulouse replacing an English team would then have negative impacts on associated revenue and expenditure (Such as French fans don't subscribe to Sky Sports, etc)

To me, this is once again an example of a lack of strategic vision in actually growing the game over here. Sure, one of the fundamental issues is that a lot of the focus will necessarily be on the short term given the struggles a lot of the teams face (as detailed through the last few pages of this thread), but continuously finding short term fixes is not sustainable, as we have witnessed through the debacle that has been Salford this season.

Alternatively, French sides are in fact a selling point for TV subs. It’s a different country, not everyone is able/wants to/can travel to a different country to watch their team. With the existing TV deal where all Super League games are shown, you can see your team play Toulouse (and Catalans).

 

[Perth Red]

Seems that one of the theories is that there's a fear that Toulouse gets in next season through the IMG ranking system. Toulouse replacing an English team would then have negative impacts on associated revenue and expenditure (Such as French fans don't subscribe to Sky Sports, etc)

To me, this is once again an example of a lack of strategic vision in actually growing the game over here. Sure, one of the fundamental issues is that a lot of the focus will necessarily be on the short term given the struggles a lot of the teams face (as detailed through the last few pages of this thread), but continuously finding short term fixes is not sustainable, as we have witnessed through the debacle that has been Salford this season.

Problem is there is no sign at all that there is any interest from French media to pay for rugby league. It’s been 25 years since dragons joined SL and still no revenue from France.
So bringing Toulouse in is another net loss for the comp.
if we have to bring bradford in to balance that loss then so be it.

 

[Perth Red]

Alternatively, French sides are in fact a selling point for TV subs. It’s a different country, not everyone is able/wants to/can travel to a different country to watch their team. With the existing TV deal where all Super League games are shown, you can see your team play Toulouse (and Catalans).

lol people arent paying $50 a month to sky for one away game a year they can’t get to!

 

[Taking The Two]

lol people arent paying $50 a month to sky for one away game a year they can’t get to!

Eh? Nobody said they would be. It’s a selling point. Note the word, a. Not THE selling point.

Equally, there isn’t going to be a sudden uptake of Sky Sports subs across the UK because we have Bradford vs Salford.

 

[Perth Red]

Eh? Nobody said they would be. It’s a selling point. Note the word, a. Not THE selling point.

Equally, there isn’t going to be a sudden uptake of Sky Sports subs across the UK because we have Bradford vs Salford.

There could be 3000 bulls subscribers. They used to be the best supported club in England

 

[Taking The Two]

If you think they have that many fans who don’t have a Sky sub because Bradford aren’t involved, I’m sorry.

 

[Leighton Rhino]

If you think they have that many fans who don’t have a Sky sub because Bradford aren’t involved, I’m sorry.

Nice strawman ...

The fact is there are pushes and pulls across all people's decision to pay SKY...

Also there is an awful lot more than 3000 people interested in Bulls

 

[Taking The Two]

Nice strawman ...

The fact is there are pushes and pulls across all people's decision to pay SKY...

Also there is an awful lot more than 3000 people interested in Bulls

There might be more than 3000 Bradford fans but there sure as shit isn’t 3000 people who are going to buy a Sky sub because Bradford are going in Super League.

As for strawman, you are the one championing a sides inclusion in the top flight of rugby league based off of things that happened a quarter of a century ago but failing to acknowledge their recent history, which includes going bust and homelessness. Make it make sense, man.

 

[Leighton Rhino]

There might be more than 3000 Bradford fans but there sure as shit isn’t 3000 people who are going to buy a Sky sub because Bradford are going in Super League.

As for strawman, you are the one championing a sides inclusion in the top flight of rugby league based off of things that happened a quarter of a century ago but failing to acknowledge their recent history, which includes going bust and homelessness. Make it make sense, man.

How the heck is that a strawman??? Lol

Get yourself on the interwebs and check what it means!

 

[Taking The Two]

How the heck is that a strawman??? Lol

Get yourself on the interwebs and check what it means!

Oh dear, you have no clue.

Anyway, seeing as you're living in somewhere between 1996 and 2004, get some money on Leicester City to win the Premier League in 2016.