NYC scrapped!!

[Captain Apollo]

For junior Pathways, id rather see the NRL club brands totally removed (make exclusively NRL level), and all of the lower grade clubs given independent identities (as the QRL do now)...

I also think the State Championship (good name, stick with it) should be expanded into regional areas and towns that wound never have NRL teams; divide states into 2/3 conferences to keep travel costs down and combine it nationally for the finals series. We could have teams in rural NSW/QLD, Suburban Melbourne/Adelaide/Perth and all across NZ.

I know the Sydney/Brisbane teams ould dominate and some of these smaller clubs could be mostly amateur and get smashed against these city teams, but even just the prestige of a local team from Wagga/Nowra/etc competing in this National competition would be fantastic.

The problem is that NRL clubs have a squad of 25, meaning (barring injuries) there are a number of players who are not getting game time, which is why they wind up playing in the NSW or Qld Cups (respectively). Is is why many NRL clubs either field teams directly, or like many do, they have a feeder club arrangement with another club.

Problem is though, many of those players view it as being a step down from NRL and even Toyota Cup, as they view it as barely above "park" football due to the facilities at many of the grounds they play at. That view is taken by many current Toyota Cup players at the moment and why some move clubs because they want first grade opportunities, whether they are ready or not.

Also in NSW, the age representative competitions (i.e. Harold Matthews Cup, SG Ball Cup) are based around those clubs in NSW who have NRL sides. I can't see that changing somehow as all the NSW NRL clubs are used to it.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

The problem is that NRL clubs have a squad of 25, meaning (barring injuries) there are a number of players who are not getting game time, which is why they wind up playing in the NSW or Qld Cups (respectively). Is is why many NRL clubs either field teams directly, or like many do, they have a feeder club arrangement with another club.

Also in NSW, the age representative competitions (i.e. Harold Matthews Cup, SG Ball Cup) are based around those clubs in NSW who have NRL sides. I can't see that changing somehow as all the NSW NRL clubs are used to it.

Of course, a lot of the NRL players will need places to go when not selected, and they could easily step back into one of these State Championship sides (like the Titans players stepping into the Burleigh Bears squad). But the team in the State comps should still be separate entities:
- To create a proper prestige in wearing that NRL jersey (instead of being able to pull it on for an U16s game)
- To remove the burden of development from the clubs (i think the ARLC should centralise junior pathways, leaving the NRL clubs basically as the public face of the sport)

Problem is though, many of those players view it as being a step down from NRL and even Toyota Cup, as they view it as barely above "park" football due to the facilities at many of the grounds they play at. That view is taken by many current Toyota Cup players at the moment and why some move clubs because they want first grade opportunities, whether they are ready or not.

Not really a bad thing...

The NRL should be considered the top level (and anyone that tries to say QRL is actually on equal footing is kidding themselves). But these State based teams dont need to attract the big name players, draw these crowds of 20k or sell millions in merch. They just need to put a team on the park each week that a local town can be proud of.

 

[MarkC]

OK the other alternative is the NSWU20 and QLDU20 comps align with the NSW Cup and QLD (Intrust) Cup comps.

What is then needed is a higher profile for the NSW Cup & QLD Cup comps and more money.

These comps (including the U20s component) have to be part of the TV deal and get a substantial chunk of money.

When a QLD team plays in Sydney the lead up game(s) would be NSW cup and/or NSWU20.
That way only the QLD NRL team has to travel.

You could then have an end of year semi final series with the top 4 from NSW Cup and the Top 4 form QLD cup making an 8 team semi final series. Same for U20s.

This suits most clubs except the Warriors will find it hard to convince young guys to come across from RU, so the U20s needs to have some profile.

Country teams could play in NSW Cup/QLD Cup and U20's respectively.
If a player is not playing NRL, then they are playing in those comps it is just a question of location.

This may be similar to what they have in mind.

What this tells us is that the NYC comp was a bad idea.

 

[siv]

There problem is for players who want to be one club players when they reach 21

If not good enough for RG or NSW Cup at age 21 but might have been at age 23

They have nowhere to go

So rather than play for teams they have no interest in at RM Cup or Sydney Shield

They just quit RL or go play Rugby who have 4 grades

Reverting U20s back into NSWRL Junior format doesnt solve this basic problem

But have a RG and U23s structure where NSW RL teams play does

 

[CC_Roosters]

When it is scrapped what is the best guess/most likely structure we will see in queensland? Will the titans, broncos and cowboys field in house squads under their own badge or stick to the Q cup club under 20's?

Another interesting question is the status of Melbourne and the warriors. The kiwis have the most to lose from the loss of the NYC but will be interesting to see if they slot into the resulting NSWRL comp. Also will Melbourne move their operations back to NSW and field an U20 side there or not have any Melbourne badged U20 side and use whoever their Q Cup affiliation is only. Would be a shame if they did not field a badged team whatever comp it ends up in.

IMO there should be a state based phase and then a national phase of under 20 competition. One option might be to play everybody once in the state comp then move to a national phase cumulating in a GF on the same days as state championship and NRL GF. In my mind the national phase could be a group stage and knockout based on state ladder positions. (think soccer champions league) Could have groups of 4 teams with H&A fixtures followed by a straight knockout. Something a bit different to the usual Australian solutions but would work well imo without burdening under age teams with massive amounts of travel.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

There problem is for players who want to be one club players when they reach 21

If not good enough for RG or NSW Cup at age 21 but might have been at age 23

They have nowhere to go

So rather than play for teams they have no interest in at RM Cup or Sydney Shield

They just quit RL or go play Rugby who have 4 grades

Reverting U20s back into NSWRL Junior format doesnt solve this basic problem

But have a RG and U23s structure where NSW RL teams play does

If you havent proved your potential by 21 then youre f*cked anyway...

By that point, its more about getting them BACK to the bush/their junior club and playing firsts there. They wont make the NRL, but they can still contribute to the game.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

When it is scrapped what is the best guess/most likely structure we will see in queensland? Will the titans, broncos and cowboys field in house squads under their own badge or stick to the Q cup club under 20's?

Another interesting question is the status of Melbourne and the warriors. The kiwis have the most to lose from the loss of the NYC but will be interesting to see if they slot into the resulting NSWRL comp. Also will Melbourne move their operations back to NSW and field an U20 side there or not have any Melbourne badged U20 side and use whoever their Q Cup affiliation is only. Would be a shame if they did not field a badged team whatever comp it ends up in.

IMO there should be a state based phase and then a national phase of under 20 competition. One option might be to play everybody once in the state comp then move to a national phase cumulating in a GF on the same days as state championship and NRL GF. In my mind the national phase could be a group stage and knockout based on state ladder positions. (think soccer champions league) Could have groups of 4 teams with H&A fixtures followed by a straight knockout. Something a bit different to the usual Australian solutions but would work well imo without burdening under age teams with massive amounts of travel.

Melbourne should come up to the NSW comp, but id love to see NZ create a proper, self-contained domestic comp....

Particularly if they can join in the State Championship as another conference/division to maintain the international profile, this would allow RL to take advantage of some of the local rivalries in NZ.

 

[siv]

If you havent proved your potential by 21 then youre f*cked anyway...

By that point, its more about getting them BACK to the bush/their junior club and playing firsts there. They wont make the NRL, but they can still contribute to the game.

Disagree

Non Islandee players especially forwards only start to prove their worth around age 23-25

Pne big issue is if you are just off the pace and need half a season to grow and strengthen you cannot do it in your local club

Going back to your A grade club doesnt help in this player development

 

[kbw]

What I find wrong is that U20s players are sent to play in the Ron Massey comp and they view it as a downgrading. I think its more complementary in the U20s comp has the speed but Massey is a hell of a lot more physical than U20s.
Smart clubs should encourage their good U20s to have a game or 2 in Massey (if not NSW cup) to toughen them up, it would improve the U20s comp for whats left of it.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

What I find wrong is that U20s players are sent to play in the Ron Massey comp and they view it as a downgrading. I think its more complementary in the U20s comp has the speed but Massey is a hell of a lot more physical than U20s.
Smart clubs should encourage their good U20s to have a game or 2 in Massey (if not NSW cup) to toughen them up, it would improve the U20s comp for whats left of it.

NYC was obviously an attempt to emulate College Football, and it did have quite a few positives, but there are so many negatives as well...

The only reason to have an elite comp like that would be if the NRL did implement a draft, as that was a place for kids to show off their talent. Basically, the U20s teams would need to be independent of the NRL clubs and players ageing out of the U20 would need to put forward for the draft.

 

[siv]

National U20s will only work in conjunction with National RG

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

National U20s will only work in conjunction with National RG

Which, again, would just be too expensive...

 

[Big Pete]

I don't think the NYC necessarily had to emulate College Football to be successful. I'm sure a system like that COULD work well in the future, but so much work would have to be done in order to make it viable.

The problem with the NYC is that it never received the support it should have. Just take a look at all the coverage it recieves. The NRL website doesn't write any articles about it, there's no footage, stats are hidden on the official website & even the cluib websites put little work into it.

Now imagine if back in 2008, the NRL made a concerted effort to ensure that the competition would be covered properly in the media.

Let's say...

It's own website with all the trimmings you'd expect.
A segment or two on one of the talk shows.
Full Match Replays for NRL Digital Subscribers
Highlights Show on Fox-Sports
Concerted effort for club websites to promote their side

etc. etc.

If you put the effort in, I'm sure it would have raised everybody's interest and cultivated a following, potentially leading to a better overall competition.

Instead, all we got was really half-assed and inconsistent coverage of the competition that even drives fans away from it. There's little point following anyone outside of your club because it's too difficult to obtain info and any televised game is usually between 10th vs 14th which is a really poor advertisement for the competition.

The competition is dying and I'm sure the NRL will shift to something different. It's just a shame that it was never given a chance in the first place.

 

[andrew057]

Great post Pete.

 

[Lockyer4President!]

Clubs to tackle NRL on development issues after pathways summit
August 25, 2015 - 6:59PM
Adrian Proszenko
Chief Rugby League Reporter

The NRL is about to engage in another battle with its clubs as they meet with the NSW Rugby League from Wednesday to thrash out concerns over the abolition of the National Youth Competition.

Fairfax Media revealed a year ago that the under-20s competition was headed for the scrapheap at the completion of the current broadcast deal. As part of its pitch to clubs, the governing body has told them the move will save them $16 million collectively in costs. The NRL's head of strategy Shane Richardson is working on a "whole of game" manifesto that will include the development pathways for youngsters.

It's understood the League is considering basing the NSW model on that of the Queensland Cup, with players expected to graduate into an open-age competition from the SG Ball. However, there are concerns the jump from the under-18s is too big a leap and talented youngsters may fall through the cracks in the transition.

The NSWRL will begin meeting with the clubs on Wednesday with a view to discussing the issues with all 16 over two days. The clubs appreciate the financial relief that abolition of the NYC would bring, particularly in travel and administration costs, but many feel the mooted state cup competition won't meet their needs.

There are concerns players farmed off to Ron Massey Cup and Sydney Shield competitions won't have the visibility they deserve, while the clubs will have little say on their coaching structures. There are also concerns the NRL could reduce the grant to clubs after pointing to savings they make by abolishing the under-20s.

It's understood the proposed new open-age competition would feature 14 teams, including two from country areas. The Queensland Cup already features the PNG Hunters and the NSW version would likely feature a PNG outfit, as well as the Warriors. The winners of the respective Queensland and NSW competitions would then face off on grand final day to determine Australia's best second-tier team.

Wednesday's clubs meeting will discuss how the clubs believe they should be represented and whether there needs to be another competition - possibly an under-21s, 22s or 23s tournament - to fill the void.

With half of the next broadcast deal still to be negotiated, there are concerns over whether any new competitions will receive the coverage that Fox Sports gives the NYC.

There is already tension between the clubs and the governing body over many issues, ranging from the current television negotiations through to club funding and the handling of on-field matters such as rule changes. Several clubs are holding off signing new participation agreements but several powerbrokers have privately talked down the prospect of starting a rival competition.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...es-after-pathways-summit-20150825-gj7l53.html

Assume Adrian meant Fiji instead of PNG.

 

[siv]

Simple answer is National RG above National RG

Then NSW Cup can evolve into a QLD Cup style setup

Funds are now available

 

[Noa]

Im pretty much with Pete on this, used to love following the young kids when it started. Watching the Storms NYC tram of Widdop, ONeill, Bromwich, Duffie, Proctor etc is among my great memories of league.

As for the criticisms thrown at it, most were baseless in my opinio e.g.

Doesnt teach defence - Most of these kids get noticed because theyre great attacking players. They know how too attack, theyll develop defence after a couple of years in a pro system. Look at any youth competition in any sport in the world and theyre all offensive leagues and theyre all criticised with "they dont play defence" line.

Puts players on the scrapheap too early - Im sorry but if you dont get signed after 20 and choose not too chase your goal through the state cups or england thats on you. Imagine if we all gave up when we havent got want we want just out of our teens.

I dont see why a club should keep you on the books just to see if you might be good enough to be a fill in 5 years from now. Maybe a supplementary cap could have been good here for these type of players i.e. not in offiical roster but paid a stipend by the club, say 750 a week.

Doesnt get them ready for 1st grade - valid but only for the first year. Its a talent id competition, the goal of which was to identify those worthy of a contract once they got beyond 20. It seems to me anyway most clubs quickly worked out once they were too good for nyc you played a year or 2 the state comp anyway. So what the issue.


Anway I hope we dont throw the baby out with the bathwater here and blindly ignore the good that came from the nyc, especially in nz.

 

[siv]

The NRL could lose an advantage it has over rugby union if it scraps the Holden Cup. Warriors chief executive Jim Doyle believes it is crucial for the game, especially in New Zealand, that the NRL continue to run a high-profile under 20s competition.

NRL club chief executives will discuss the future of the Under 20s Holden Cup at a meeting on Thursday. Most are believed to favour a proposal to split it into NSW and Queensland competitions at the end of the 2016 season.

Doyle said he would not be concerned if that were to happen, provided the Warriors under 20s games continued to be televised by Sky TV in New Zealand.

With the Under 20s being on TV and the fact that the Warriors have won three of the last five competitions it has been really good for the profile of rugby league and a really good recruitment tool," Doyle said.

I know there has been talk about it not being a national competition but becoming state-based and I think as long as Sky keeps showing it on tv and as long as the Warriors still do well then it will still get a lot of profile and still be a real big positive for us.&quot;<br />

Warriors centres Konrad Hurrell and Solomone Kata, 2016 recruit Roger Tuivasa-Sheck and Sydney Roosters-bound fullback Omar Slaimankhel were all schoolboy rugby union stars before switching codes to play in the NRL's under 20s competition.

If changes were made to the structure of the Under 20s, Doyle said the Warriors would seek to join the NSW competition as they already have a team in the NSW Cup.

He said they may also enter an Under 18s team in the SG Ball competition.

A lot of kids who play rugby union switch over to play rugby league because of the profile of the Under 20s so we would want to maintain that,&quot; Doyle said. &quot;As long as they keep it under 20s, as long as the pathways are still there, it would be OK.<br />

At the moment you have got Under 16s and Under 18s with the Harold Mathews and the SG Ball and then you have got the Under 20s and open aged NSW Cup.

Maybe the next step for us is to have an Under 18s team that plays in the SG Ball as well as an Under 20s and a NSW Cup team.&quot;<br />

Sydney Roosters recruitment manager Peter O'Sullivan has previously told Fairfax Media that the Under 20s competition gave the NRL a significant advantage in the battle with rugby union for talent such as Tuivasa-Sheck. &quot;One of the reasons Roger came across was for the opportunity to train full-time and play in that under-20s system, which rugby union here and in New Zealand can't offer,&quot; O'Sullivan said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...-jim-doyle-20150607-ghij4k.html#ixzz3nTRZsIwY
Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook

 

[kbw]

A lot of kids who play rugby union switch over to play rugby league because of the profile of the Under 20s

No thats actually not quite the truth. Kids switch from RU to RL into the 20s because they are promised a faster transition in to the top 25 for the NRL squad.
They are told they will be training with the top squad within 2 years and they are told they will not be considered for the Super 15 squads for 4-years.

Its needs to change and the attitude needs to changes. There needs to be grades that are "apprenticeship" grades to first grade.

 

[Last Week]

It's almost a guarantee that any changes or if a new national reserve grade competition is created, a draft will be implemented.

I'd be cautious that a national RG comp will flop, similar to the ARC. I'd like to see the NSW (with a NZ team or two invited to the competition. Fiji would be cool too) and QLd Cups strengthened. Also don't think it would cost too much start up costs for a WA team to be invited into one of those competitions.