OT: Current Affairs and Politics

[Gary Gutful]

Perrottet trying to bring the NSW LNP into the modern ages... but scuppered by the faceless men who pull the strings.

Perrottet’s plan to install Liberal women in upper house in tatters

In a major embarrassment for the premier and factional powerbrokers, the deal to sacrifice three male MPs to make way for women has been killed off at the 11th hour.

www.smh.com.au

#92daysleft

Clumsy and poorly executed.

 

[the phantom menace]

Dominic's plan... or my post ?

 

[Gary Gutful]

Dominic.

At least he is trying but he didn't have the nutters on side and put something forward at the expense of a LGBTQQIP2SAA member of the party.

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

It sounds like affirmative action was a disaster Same with the quota system in SA rugby. Does this sort of thing ever really do what it sets out to achieve? I have my doubts.

 

[the phantom menace]

It seemed like a bit of a knee jerk reaction to their internal report the day before on what went wrong in the federal election - which could be summarised mainly as "toxic Scomo".

 

[Gary Gutful]

I would have summarised it as "we are in the shit".

 

[Gronk]

Getting some Mike Moore propaganda vibes.

* Louis Theroux

 

[Bandwagon]

It sounds like affirmative action was a disaster Same with the quota system in SA rugby. Does this sort of thing ever really do what it sets out to achieve? I have my doubts.

I don't know that this particular example is one you'd want to point to as of it failing.

Given that the party who has adopted quotas for female representation is in government across the country, whilst the party who has rejected them is enjoying opposition, and in the federal sphere has just lost a swathe of their blue ribbon heartland seats to independents who are women. Further this federal parliament sees us with the highest level of female representatives ever.

Now obviously correlation isn't causation, and there's a host of reasons why that is, but on the flipside there still needs to be some correlation to causation, and if you were to point to this example as being one of quotas or affirmative action failing, it just aint there.

 

[Twizzle]

His trying to change the culture can't be a bad thing, as to whether he is successful................................

 

[Gary Gutful]

I don't know that this particular example is one you'd want to point to as of it failing.

Given that the party who has adopted quotas for female representation is in government across the country, whilst the party who has rejected them is enjoying opposition, and in the federal sphere has just lost a swathe of their blue ribbon heartland seats to independents who are women. Further this federal parliament sees us with the highest level of female representatives ever.

Now obviously correlation isn't causation, and there's a host of reasons why that is, but on the flipside there still needs to be some correlation to causation, and if you were to point to this example as being one of quotas or affirmative action failing, it just aint there.

Yeah it's a broader point that I largely agree with. But it was poorly applied.

I would argue that Quotas are an important consideration if you want to get elected. I suspect plenty of women like to see that they are represented. Remembering that the objective is different to that of an organisation. Its not about the best candidate, its about the one that increases your chances of being elected.

 

[Bandwagon]

Yeah it's a broader point that I largely agree with. But it was poorly applied.

I would argue that Quotas are an important consideration if you want to get elected. I suspect plenty of women like to see that they are represented. Remembering that the objective is different to that of an organisation. Its not about the best candidate, its about the one that increases your chances of being elected.

The "best candidate" though is the one that has the best chance of being elected, of course that doesn't mean the best candidate is the best representative, which I suspect is what you ultimately mean.

Even then though that becomes very subjective, as obviously different political positions can see a member being described in many different ways.

On quotas themselves, I think they are useful for breaking down barriers that are ingrained within an organisation, and if applied well can and do lead to better outcomes, key I guess is that you have enough engagement within your organisation to ensure you attract enough quality candidates so as you can both meet your quotas and engage the best candidate.

It's all a matter of perspective, if you see that there are barriers to certain demographics within an organisation then affirmative action is an effective means by which to lower them, if you see no barriers, then you'd think it unnecessary nonsense. The important distinction there is whether you see that as a means to equal opportunity, or a means to equality of outcome, in a merit based system the former is desirable, and the latter anathema to such an ideal.

 

[Gary Gutful]

The "best candidate" though is the one that has the best chance of being elected, of course that doesn't mean the best candidate is the best representative, which I suspect is what you ultimately mean.

Yep.

On quotas themselves, I think they are useful for breaking down barriers that are ingrained within an organisation, and if applied well can and do lead to better outcomes, key I guess is that you have enough engagement within your organisation to ensure you attract enough quality candidates so as you can both meet your quotas and engage the best candidate.

It's all a matter of perspective, if you see that there are barriers to certain demographics within an organisation then affirmative action is an effective means by which to lower them, if you see no barriers, then you'd think it unnecessary nonsense. The important distinction there is whether you see that as a means to equal opportunity, or a means to equality of outcome, in a merit based system the former is desirable, and the latter anathema to such an ideal.

I'm all for ensuring equal opportunity and removing any barriers to women applying for and being awarded a job. But quotas are often problematic on their own.

I typically dont see enough attention paid to the business case for diversity. In some areas of the business it might be beneficial to chase gender equality because you are underrepresented, in others your situation is merely a reflection of societal norms.

I think its a bandaid solution to a complex problem that corporates employ to look good with stakeholders and investors. If it was seen as a genuine problem then more would be done to address root causes.

However, in socially progressive scandanavian countries where they have removed barriers to entry and offered more individual choice it has only served to reinforce gender inequality. Maybe women dont want to be engineers and no amount of social engineering will ever change that?!!?

 

[Bandwagon]

Maybe women dont want to be engineers and no amount of social engineering will ever change that?!!?

If the goal is equal opportunity, then this a very relevant question. It's overly simplistic to simply say there should be equal numbers of women in stem, so in the case of a quota system you need to identify the barriers, if any exist, and then the quota should look to achieve levels that are reflective of the desire to participate. Not forgetting that there may be barriers to wanting to participate in the first place.

 

[Gary Gutful]

If the goal is equal opportunity, then this a very relevant question. It's overly simplistic to simply say there should be equal numbers of women in stem, so in the case of a quota system you need to identify the barriers, if any exist, and then the quota should look to achieve levels that are reflective of the desire to participate. Not forgetting that there may be barriers to wanting to participate in the first place.

Equal opportunity is different to equal outcome. If someone wants to apply they should be enouraged to do so and assessed fairly.

If there are no impediments to the opportunity then by definition there are no barriers and hence no real need for quotas.

If there are barriers then equal opportunity doesnt exist and I'd argue that the focus should be on the barriers rather than manufacturing an outcome.

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

So apparently the FBI does this stuff all the time. Nothing to see here...

 

[hineyrulz]

 

[Gary Gutful]

I hope Santa doesn’t leave his laptop somewhere…

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

The only reason he's not on the flight logs is because he has flying reindeer.

 

[Twizzle]

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

Please stop posting fake news.