Parra and Brian Smith - chokers?

[Poupou Escobar]

Hi all, I'm a Parra fan and this is a repost from the Parramatta forum. No-one over there is too interested in it, tbh, so I was hoping there'd be somebody here interested in the discussion. Bear in mind I'm not here to bash Brian Smith - I was ecstatic when he came to Parra and I was very disappointed when it was announced he wouldn't be re-signed for 2007.

'Choker' is a tag Parra's had to wear for nearly ten years and personally I was always in denial. I always made excuses for the team, and especially the (now ex-) coach.

I still rate Brian Smith very highly as a coach. I believe that techically, he is one of the greatest of all time. Regardless of not having won a Premiership.

Yet it's been said over and over again that he is incapable of winning a Grand Final; that he chokes in big matches. The amount of words I've spent defending him on the internet must number in the thousands.

I always maintained that a Premiership was only a matter of time for Smith; that he was a victim of circumstance. I argued that coaches don't win Grand Finals; dominant on-field personalities do, particularly superstar playmakers. And I still hold this true.

Looking at Premiers over the past 20 years you see the teamlists littered with international and Origin stars in the key positions of halfback, five-eighth, hooker and fullback:

1988 - Canterbury (Terry Lamb, Steve Mortimer came off the bench to replace Michael Hagan)
1989 - Canberra (Ricky Stuart, Steve Walters, Gary Belcher)
1990 - Canberra (Ricky Stuart, Steve Walters, Gary Belcher)
1991 - Penrith (Greg Alexander, Royce Simmons)
1992 - Brisbane (Alan Langer, Kevin Walters, Kerrod Walters, Julian O'Neill)
1993 - Brisbane (Alan Langer, Kevin Walters, Kerrod Walters, Julian O'Neill)
1994 - Canberra (Ricky Stuart, Laurie Daley, Steve Walters, Brett Mullins)
1995 - Canterbury (Terry Lamb, Jason Hetherington)
1996 - Manly (Jeff Toovey, Cliff Lyons, Jim Serdaris, Matthew Ridge)
1997 - Newcastle (Andrew Johns, Matthew Johns, Robbie O'Davis)
1998 - Brisbane (Alan Langer, Kevin Walters, Darren Lockyer)
1999 - Melbourne (Brett Kimmorley, Richard Swain, Robbie Ross)
2000 - Brisbane (Kevin Walters, Ben Ikin, Luke Priddis, Darren Lockyer)
2001 - Newcastle (Andrew Johns, Danny Buderus, Mark Hughes)
2002 - Easts (Craig Wing, Brad Fittler)
2003 - Penrith (Craig Gower, Preston Campbell (never played Origin but was Dally M Player in 2001), Luke Priddis, Rhys Wesser)
2004 - Canterbury (Braith Anasta) Clearly this team won on the back of one of the most dominant forward packs of all time
2005 - Wests (Scott Prince, Benji Marshall, Brett Hodgson)
2006 - Brisbane (Darren Lockyer, Shaun Berrigan, Justin Hodges/Karmichael Hunt)

Brian Smith, in his '92 and '93 Grand Final teams, had only Noel Goldthorpe (never played Origin but played in the 1997 SL Tri-Series) and Mick Potter (1 game off the bench for NSW). In the 1993 Grand Final loss Phil Blake (1 Origin game for NSW off the bench) also made an interchange appearance for St George.

In 2001 it was more of the same. Halfback Jason Taylor had played 3 games off the bench for the Blues back in 1993 with Buettner (once off the bench) and Brett Hodgson who would go on to play 6 times for NSW. Hardly a star-studded cast.

So as I said, I always put Brian Smith's Grand Final failures down to the lack of talent at key positions. And I still believe this to be true.

It wasn't until he left that I started to wonder if it wasn't Smith's fault that he never had the kind of playmakers required to win Premierships.

By their nature, the types of players that have the confidence to make big on-field decisions and win big matches (like Joey's final play in 1997 for example) have a certain degree of arrogance. This kind of arrogance is typified at Parramatta in guys like Jarryd Hayne, Feleti Mateo, Mark Riddell and Tim Smith. Under Brian Smith, Mateo and Hayne never got a start in first grade, and at the time B. Smith left, Tim Smith and Mark Riddell were both behaving badly and showing little respect for their coach.

We've all seen the kinds of clashes Brian Smith has had in the past with forceful personalities - Gorden Tallis, Noel Cleal and Jamie Lyon in particular. It could be that Brian Smith is unable to share control of his club with anyone, and so he misses out on the on-field generals a coach needs to win the big games.

Not to denigrate Nathan Cayless, a loyal clubman, outstanding front-rower, and a captain who obviously leads by example, but he's not a big-match "go-to" man in the mould of Buderus, Johns, Gower or Lockyer.

It is my belief that none of those players would have thrived under Brian Smith, and I'll be interested to see how his relationship with Danny Buderus develops over the next couple of years.

Note also that my definition of on-field leadership goes beyond the bloke with the little c next to his name.

I don't rate Hagan anywhere near Smith in his ability to develop talent, structure the entire coaching setup of a club, and come up with a magic gameplan when his team are the underdogs, but I do believe Hagan is comfortable enough in what he achieved in his playing career to let the players take control once they take the field.

Your thoughts?

 

[Jobdog]

Put simply, the whole "choking" tag has nothing whatsoever to do with the coach. It has everything to do with the players. The same can be said for a supposed "good" coach. A coach is only as good as his players and in Brian Smith's case, his players were good enough to get to the Grand Final, but not good enough to win it. The same applies for Michael Hagan, he's not so much a good coach, but is made to look better by the players he is coaching.

 

[RufusRex]

Brian Smith + Any NRL Team = Chokers ...

dragons 92/93 anyone

 

[Jobdog]

But you can't say the coach is the one doing the choking. The players are the ones dropping the ball and missing tackles.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

But you can't say the coach is the one doing the choking. The players are the ones dropping the ball and missing tackles.

What I'm saying is, is it only the personality types that choke that Brian Smith allows in his club?

Smith has coached for a long time and proved how good he is at so many aspects of coaching. He also has a proven history of his teams performing poorly in big, elimination finals matches.

My question is why. He can consistently take teams from the gutter to minor premierships. He's done it more than once. So why is it that he can get teams to perform so consistently that by the time they're in a big match they're favourites, and then on the day they inexplicably fall apart, looking nothing like the team they were for the past 3 months?

It's too big to be coincidence.

I grant you he never had the players to win a Grand Final, so why does he persist with overachieving average Joes when they clearly can't step up on the big day? What's his problem with star players? He never buys them, and he doesn't value them when they come through his junior system. He'd rather have 25 solid first graders and no game-breakers at the club than do what works for the Knights (until recently), the Broncos and the Bulldogs - a handful of stars surrounded by a bunch of hard-working Nevilles.

 

[Jobdog]

Next year could well decide the answers to your questions. IMO the Knights will have these handful of stars - Buderus, Simpson, Gidley - and what happens after that, remains to be seen.

 

[The Engineers Room]

The coach is responsible for motivation of his team and attitude goes a long way to winning a grand final.

 

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Brian Smith + Any NRL Team = Chokers ...

dragons 92/93 anyone

Against a fair side in the Broncos mind you Rufus. Ran off the park in 92 & played awfully in a 50/50 GF in 93. Wouldn't say they choked.

 

[aqua_duck]

alot of people use to say the same thing about John Lang, and when the sharks decided to shaft him and bring in a proven 'winner' in chris anderson alot of people were saying that it could be a great move. 2 years later lang, a guy who cronulla continuiously choked under, won penrith a premiership and anderson was sacked

 

[jhonny bravo]

Brian Smith must have thought to himself last year when he signed to coach the knights that this is his BEST chance to win a grand final with the worlds best player in the side.
That lasted 2 minutes and 30 seconds into this season and that was gone. Smithy must be thinking to himself what have i got to do. He must have killed a Chinaman or something he is the most unluckiest coach to caoch rigby league.
The 92 GF totally out player and did not choke, No side would have beaten Brisbane.
Again in 93 Brisbane again no one would have beaten them. (Maybe the knights if F*cking Terry Herman didnt think he was Superman...dreaming)
Then in 2001 was aguably one of the best half of football a team has played in a grand final. Parra did well to get within 6.
All in all Smithy is very good coach and its a bit unfair to say he has choked, he may well have done but he was thoroughly beaten on all 3 occassions.

 

[Jobdog]

alot of people use to say the same thing about John Lang, and when the sharks decided to shaft him and bring in a proven 'winner' in chris anderson alot of people were saying that it could be a great move. 2 years later lang, a guy who cronulla continuiously choked under, won penrith a premiership and anderson was sacked

Some clubs just have a choking mentality imo. Cronulla and Parra are 2 teams which spring to mind

 

[Nuffy]

Its a sh*t argument, champion players win grand finals, not coaches.

Using this argument, Bellamy must be a choker because his team lost last year, I don't think anyone believes that.

Brisbane had a outrageously good team in the 90's, it was the QLd origin team in reality, plus Parra came up against a very good side who blew them away.

The coach builds the team and develops it, but at the end of the day its the players that make it happen, not the coach.

 

[eels_fan_01]

But you can't say the coach is the one doing the choking. The players are the ones dropping the ball and missing tackles.

Then why even have a coach if you believe thats true.

Brian Smith in my opinion didnt prepare hes teams well enough.

So its always the players for Smith with Parramatta, St George and Hull? 3 different teams in different parts of the world.

 

[Gene Krupa]

Geez, could all you parra morons just get over it and piss off back to your own forum! FFS, if anyone comes into your forum, they are classed as trolls and put into the sh*t thread.

Just get over it!!!!!

 

[aqua_duck]

Some clubs just have a choking mentality imo. Cronulla and Parra are 2 teams which spring to mind

exactly. I think alot of clubs have different cultures, and players adopt that culture sometimes without even knowing it. For example is it just me but it seems bulldogs players are always getting in trouble, cronulla players are always failing to win big games, etc. I think at parra the players use to choke because there was so much pressure and expectation placed on them from the fans, who are hungry for success because its been so long between drinks and denis fitzgerald, who has spent alot of money on the infrustructure of the club.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

alot of people use to say the same thing about John Lang, and when the sharks decided to shaft him and bring in a proven 'winner' in chris anderson alot of people were saying that it could be a great move. 2 years later lang, a guy who cronulla continuiously choked under, won penrith a premiership and anderson was sacked

Sure he won a Premiership but he didn't build a Premiership-winning team, did he? Neither did Premiership-winning coaches Hagan ('01) or Stuart ('02).

So here I've listed the Premiers from the past 20 years, and each club's coach for the preceding 5 years:

2006 Broncos - coached by Wayne Bennett since 1988
2005 Tigers - Tim Sheens since 2003, Terry Lamb 2001-2002, Wayne Pearce 2000
2004 Bulldogs - Steve Folkes since 1998
2003 Penrith - John Lang since 2002, Royce Simmons 1994-2001
2002 Roosters - Ricky Stuart's first season, Graham Murray 2000-2001, Phil Gould 1995-1999
2001 Knights - Michael Hagan's first season, Warren Ryan 1999-2000, Mal Reilly 1995-1998
2000 Broncos - Wayne Bennett since 1988
1999 Storm - Chris Anderson since 1998
1998 Broncos - Wayne Bennett since 1988
1997 Knights - Mal Reilly since 1995, David Waite 1991-1994
1996 Sea Eagles - Bob Fulton since 1993, Graeme Lowe 1989-1992
1995 Bulldogs - Chris Anderson since 1990
1994 Raiders - Tim Sheens since 1988
1993 Broncos - Wayne Bennett since 1988
1992 Broncos - Wayne Bennett since 1988
1991 Panthers - Phil Gould since 1990, Ron Willey 1988-1989, Tim Sheens 1984-1987
1990 Raiders - Tim Sheens since 1988, Don Furner 1982-1987 + Wayne Bennett 1987
1989 Raiders - Tim Sheens since 1988, Don Furner 1982-1987 + Wayne Bennett 1987
1988 Bulldogs - Phil Gould's first season, Warren Ryan 1984-1987, Ted Glossop 1978-1983
1987 Sea Eagles - Bob Fulton since 1983, Ray Ritchie 1981-1982

Therefore regarding the current crop of coaches, Wayne Bennett, Steve Folkes and Chris Anderson can truly lay claim to having built a team and coached them to a Premiership.

While Phil Gould won a Premiership in his first season with the Bulldogs, and in his second season with the Panthers (and thus not being able to take credit for building either team), he never won one with the Roosters. He did, however, coach the Roosters for 5 of the 7 years before their 2002 Premiership. You could say he contributed significantly to the Roosters' Premiership.

Ricky Stuart and Michael Hagan both won Premierships in their first season at a club so can't claim to have built either team, and neither can John Lang really, who won with Penrith in his second season.

Tim Sheens is interesting. He won in his third season with the Tigers after 2 years of Terry Lamb and a year of Wayne Pearce - hardly coaching masterminds. His current assistant, Royce Simmons was Panthers coach for 8 of the 9 years before their 2003 Premiership.

Sheens also won in his 2nd, 3rd and 7th seasons with the Raiders, after 6 years' lead-up work from Don Furner (and help from co-coach Wayne Bennett in 1987, two years before Canberra's first Premiership). Incidentally, his final year (of four years) at Penrith was four years before Gould took them to their first Premiership in 1991.

Retired coaching legend Warren Ryan, who won Premierships with the Dogs in the 80's, also seems to have contributed significantly to Gould's 1988 Bulldogs Premiership and Hagan's with the Knights in 2001.

I guess what this all means is what some of you seem to already know - that there are some coaches who can build Premiership teams, other coaches who can take a talented side to the title, and a few who can do both.

Premierships to the Knights and Eels over the next couple of years would doubtless place Brian Smith in the Wayne Bennett class.

Then again, Chris Anderson, who was in the Bennett class, is clearly not up to first grade coaching any longer. Not only do coaches have a shelf-life at each club, but they have a shelf-life in the game itself.

 

[Alex28]

He isn't a choker - 1992 and 1993 Brisbane had awesome squads and nobody was going to beat them as long as they played even to 75% of their potential on the day. 2001 we had 3 of the top players in the game - Johns, Buderus and Kennedy. We should have won that game based on the squad we had.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

He isn't a choker - 1992 and 1993 Brisbane had awesome squads and nobody was going to beat them as long as they played even to 75% of their potential on the day. 2001 we had 3 of the top players in the game - Johns, Buderus and Kennedy. We should have won that game based on the squad we had.

I agree totally. Smith deserved to be underdog in all three of his Grand Final appearances.

My question is, in all the years he's been coaching first grade, why has he never won one? Everybody else seems to have.

 

[Yosh]

I agree that the coach gets you to the final, then its really the players who have to win it. Like though the season he guides them, with tactics and teaches them how to play better, but in a do or die match, the last game of the season, the players have to use what they have learnt and win it themselves, the coach has done all he could I think.

 

[darkness]

I think the coach has alot more responsibilty these days because the game is far more structured now then it used to be. I have heard one NRL player say that they aren't enjoying there football because of how everything is so structured on the field.