Parra and Brian Smith - chokers?

[keeney]

He didn't deserve to be underdog in 01, people forget how good they were that year, it was just a freakish half of football from the Knights that won it for them, and then only just.

 

[cram]

The Knights won in 01 because they had a game plan that was better then the one Smith had devised.

Few would have expected that the Knights would have played the middle of the ruck the way they did. The forwards targetted Taylor very successfully and exposed his inability to stop the big men. When you throw the try saving tackle of Simpson in you ended up with a team that was very hungry on the night and who came to town with a superior
game plan and two of the greatest football minds in the game at the time.

 

[Knightmare]

exactly. I think alot of clubs have different cultures, and players adopt that culture sometimes without even knowing it. For example is it just me but it seems bulldogs players are always getting in trouble, cronulla players are always failing to win big games, etc. I think at parra the players use to choke because there was so much pressure and expectation placed on them from the fans, who are hungry for success because its been so long between drinks and denis fitzgerald, who has spent alot of money on the infrustructure of the club.

I expressed those exact sentiments a day or two ago as was branded as being Locky Jnr. :roll:

 

[Poupou Escobar]

He didn't deserve to be underdog in 01, people forget how good they were that year

Nobody forgets - that team broke pointscoring records and won all the games that don't matter. Of course they were raging favourites for the Grand Final but should they have been?

Parra were a bunch of overachieving Nevilles and up-and-coming kids. When you look at the two teams on paper, Parra didn't have any players in the class of Johns, Buderus or Kennedy. The Knights were always going to win - their team was packed with Origin and Test stars. The only real star Parra had was Nathan Hindmarsh and he's an 80-minute endurance freak, not a match-winner.

Just like Melbourne last year - the team played consistent footy week-in and week-out and looked good on the table come finals time. But in a Grand Final against the Broncos how could Greg Inglis and Cameron Smith hope to carry all those toilers against the Australian front row, half the backline and the rest of the Queensland Origin team?

Like has already been said - regular season form counts for f*** all come semi-final time. It's all about star players. The point of my whole thread is it seems Brian Smith is allergic to them.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Hi all, I'm a Parra fan and this is a repost from the Parramatta forum. No-one over there is too interested in it, tbh, so I was hoping there'd be somebody here interested in the discussion. Bear in mind I'm not here to bash Brian Smith - I was ecstatic when he came to Parra and I was very disappointed when it was announced he wouldn't be re-signed for 2007.

'Choker' is a tag Parra's had to wear for nearly ten years and personally I was always in denial. I always made excuses for the team, and especially the (now ex-) coach.

I still rate Brian Smith very highly as a coach. I believe that techically, he is one of the greatest of all time. Regardless of not having won a Premiership.

Yet it's been said over and over again that he is incapable of winning a Grand Final; that he chokes in big matches. The amount of words I've spent defending him on the internet must number in the thousands.

I always maintained that a Premiership was only a matter of time for Smith; that he was a victim of circumstance. I argued that coaches don't win Grand Finals; dominant on-field personalities do, particularly superstar playmakers. And I still hold this true.

Looking at Premiers over the past 20 years you see the teamlists littered with international and Origin stars in the key positions of halfback, five-eighth, hooker and fullback:

1988 - Canterbury (Terry Lamb, Steve Mortimer came off the bench to replace Michael Hagan)
1989 - Canberra (Ricky Stuart, Steve Walters, Gary Belcher)
1990 - Canberra (Ricky Stuart, Steve Walters, Gary Belcher)
1991 - Penrith (Greg Alexander, Royce Simmons)
1992 - Brisbane (Alan Langer, Kevin Walters, Kerrod Walters, Julian O'Neill)
1993 - Brisbane (Alan Langer, Kevin Walters, Kerrod Walters, Julian O'Neill)
1994 - Canberra (Ricky Stuart, Laurie Daley, Steve Walters, Brett Mullins)
1995 - Canterbury (Terry Lamb, Jason Hetherington)
1996 - Manly (Jeff Toovey, Cliff Lyons, Jim Serdaris, Matthew Ridge)
1997 - Newcastle (Andrew Johns, Matthew Johns, Robbie O'Davis)
1998 - Brisbane (Alan Langer, Kevin Walters, Darren Lockyer)
1999 - Melbourne (Brett Kimmorley, Richard Swain, Robbie Ross)
2000 - Brisbane (Kevin Walters, Ben Ikin, Luke Priddis, Darren Lockyer)
2001 - Newcastle (Andrew Johns, Danny Buderus, Mark Hughes)
2002 - Easts (Craig Wing, Brad Fittler)
2003 - Penrith (Craig Gower, Preston Campbell (never played Origin but was Dally M Player in 2001), Luke Priddis, Rhys Wesser)
2004 - Canterbury (Braith Anasta) Clearly this team won on the back of one of the most dominant forward packs of all time
2005 - Wests (Scott Prince, Benji Marshall, Brett Hodgson)
2006 - Brisbane (Darren Lockyer, Shaun Berrigan, Justin Hodges/Karmichael Hunt)

Brian Smith, in his '92 and '93 Grand Final teams, had only Noel Goldthorpe (never played Origin but played in the 1997 SL Tri-Series) and Mick Potter (1 game off the bench for NSW). In the 1993 Grand Final loss Phil Blake (1 Origin game for NSW off the bench) also made an interchange appearance for St George.

In 2001 it was more of the same. Halfback Jason Taylor had played 3 games off the bench for the Blues back in 1993 with Buettner (once off the bench) and Brett Hodgson who would go on to play 6 times for NSW. Hardly a star-studded cast.

So as I said, I always put Brian Smith's Grand Final failures down to the lack of talent at key positions. And I still believe this to be true.

It wasn't until he left that I started to wonder if it wasn't Smith's fault that he never had the kind of playmakers required to win Premierships.

By their nature, the types of players that have the confidence to make big on-field decisions and win big matches (like Joey's final play in 1997 for example) have a certain degree of arrogance. This kind of arrogance is typified at Parramatta in guys like Jarryd Hayne, Feleti Mateo, Mark Riddell and Tim Smith. Under Brian Smith, Mateo and Hayne never got a start in first grade, and at the time B. Smith left, Tim Smith and Mark Riddell were both behaving badly and showing little respect for their coach.

We've all seen the kinds of clashes Brian Smith has had in the past with forceful personalities - Gorden Tallis, Noel Cleal and Jamie Lyon in particular. It could be that Brian Smith is unable to share control of his club with anyone, and so he misses out on the on-field generals a coach needs to win the big games.

Not to denigrate Nathan Cayless, a loyal clubman, outstanding front-rower, and a captain who obviously leads by example, but he's not a big-match "go-to" man in the mould of Buderus, Johns, Gower or Lockyer.

It is my belief that none of those players would have thrived under Brian Smith, and I'll be interested to see how his relationship with Danny Buderus develops over the next couple of years.

Note also that my definition of on-field leadership goes beyond the bloke with the little c next to his name.

I don't rate Hagan anywhere near Smith in his ability to develop talent, structure the entire coaching setup of a club, and come up with a magic gameplan when his team are the underdogs, but I do believe Hagan is comfortable enough in what he achieved in his playing career to let the players take control once they take the field.

Your thoughts?

2001?

Gourley Aus rep
Mackay Aus rep
Barnhill Aus rep
Coyne Aus rep
Tallis Aus rep
Stevens Aus rep
Walford SOO rep
Donnelly NZ rep
Walford SOO rep

Biased argument

Hagan has won a premiership, smith had reps Hindmarsh, Ryan, Solomona, Lyon, Vaealiki, Buettner, Cayless, J Cayless, PJ, Hodgson, Moodie, Vella etc in 2002 he went from super coach to mediocre with roughly the same squad.

Smith didn't rate Hayne, Mateo, M Hodgson, Drew, Mogg etc

Smith had 10 years with facilities second to none, Hagan had absolute sweet f/A in this regard.

71-6, no side with an alledged great coach could generate these results. Would J Gibson?

Voted least favourite coach by the players how many years straight?

Do i need to say anymore?

A good tactician 5 years ago, now his game plans are not even as good as Nathan Browns and Brown has less to work with. His caoching was found out in 2002 by Stuart, Folkes etc
2005, was a year that we should've won it with the recruits we purchased-Tahu, Riddell, Robinson, PJ, Stringer etc

Hagan chose to invest in juniors, Smith just brought, doesn't take much talent to buy players twice the amount they are worth, does take talent to develop youngsters.

Newcastle finished 4th last year, now 10th, Parra finished 8th now 3rd......

 

[Ron Jeremy]

The Knights won in 01 because they had a game plan that was better then the one Smith had devised.

Few would have expected that the Knights would have played the middle of the ruck the way they did. The forwards targetted Taylor very successfully and exposed his inability to stop the big men. When you throw the try saving tackle of Simpson in you ended up with a team that was very hungry on the night and who came to town with a superior
game plan and two of the greatest football minds in the game at the time.

brillant coaching strategy.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

He isn't a choker - 1992 and 1993 Brisbane had awesome squads and nobody was going to beat them as long as they played even to 75% of their potential on the day. 2001 we had 3 of the top players in the game - Johns, Buderus and Kennedy. We should have won that game based on the squad we had.

Well the saints did both years up in Brisbane, why couldn't they do it GF day?

As for 2001, we had Hindy, Hodgson, PJ, Solomona, Ryan, Lyon, Taylor, Drew ( Dally M hooker of the year)

We had the best team in the comp on form, no excuses.

 

[Alex28]

You might have had the best team on form, but you didn't have the best team on the night. Could be the coaches fault, but it might just be the players fault too...

We are also talking about 2 teams that have struggled with the legacy they have - the Dragons have lost 6 (?) Grand Finals in succession now. Parramatta have struggled with the post-Sterling era. Two clubs that has struggled with more than just coaching - with expectation.

Newcastle simply didn't have that - had nothing to lose and had nothing expected of us.

 

[parra pete]

Brian Smith OVER ACHIEVES with teams rather than chokes.
His 92/93 St George teams and 2001 Eels weren't beaten by teams containing mugs...

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Brian Smith OVER ACHIEVES with teams rather than chokes.
His 92/93 St George teams and 2001 Eels weren't beaten by teams containing mugs...

Mate, totally agree.

Some members of the 2001 team might've gone on to play rep footy since that match but most of them hadn't at the time.

The '92-'93 Dragons sides had their share of Origin players but how many of them were match-winners -

1992

1. Mick Potter
2. Ricky Walford
3. Mark Coyne
4. Graham Bradley
5. Ian Herron
6. Michael Beattie
7. Noel Goldthorpe
8. Tony Priddle
9. Wayne Collins
10. Neil Tierney
11. David Barnhill
12. Scott Gourley
13. Jeff Hardy

14. Brad Mackay
15. Rex Terp
16. Tony Smith
17. Matt Elliot


1993

1. Mick Potter
2. Ricky Walford
3. Mark Coyne
4. Graham Bradley
5. Ian Herron
6. Tony Smith
7. Noel Goldthorpe
8. Tony Priddle
9. Wayne Collins
10. Jason Stevens
11. David Barnhill
12. Scott Gourley
13. Brad Mackay

14. Jeff Hardy
15. Phil Blake
16. Gorden Tallis
17. Nathan Brown

 

[Alex28]

Brian Smith OVER ACHIEVES with teams rather than chokes.
His 92/93 St George teams and 2001 Eels weren't beaten by teams containing mugs...

Smartest thing I've heard from a Parramatta fan in a long time.

I get that you guys are happy you are rid of him. Just accept we are happy to be rid of Hages too

 

[Bicey_18]

2001?

Gourley Aus rep
Mackay Aus rep
Barnhill Aus rep
Coyne Aus rep
Tallis Aus rep
Stevens Aus rep
Walford SOO rep
Donnelly NZ rep
Walford SOO rep

Biased argument

Hagan has won a premiership, smith had reps Hindmarsh, Ryan, Solomona, Lyon, Vaealiki, Buettner, Cayless, J Cayless, PJ, Hodgson, Moodie, Vella etc in 2002 he went from super coach to mediocre with roughly the same squad.

Smith didn't rate Hayne, Mateo, M Hodgson, Drew, Mogg etc

Smith had 10 years with facilities second to none, Hagan had absolute sweet f/A in this regard.

71-6, no side with an alledged great coach could generate these results. Would J Gibson?

Voted least favourite coach by the players how many years straight?

Do i need to say anymore?

A good tactician 5 years ago, now his game plans are not even as good as Nathan Browns and Brown has less to work with. His caoching was found out in 2002 by Stuart, Folkes etc
2005, was a year that we should've won it with the recruits we purchased-Tahu, Riddell, Robinson, PJ, Stringer etc

Hagan chose to invest in juniors, Smith just brought, doesn't take much talent to buy players twice the amount they are worth, does take talent to develop youngsters.

Newcastle finished 4th last year, now 10th, Parra finished 8th now 3rd......

Look at both clubs rosters..... you should be sitting pretty with the mob you have had for the past 3 years! Then look at our team... made up of mostly jersey flegg players with 2 internationals. Yet...we still thrashed your mob by 24 points!!!!!!

The proof will be in the pudding over the next 3 years.....

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Look at both clubs rosters..... you should be sitting pretty with the mob you have had for the past 3 years! Then look at our team... made up of mostly jersey flegg players with 2 internationals. Yet...we still thrashed your mob by 24 points!!!!!!

The game obviously meant more to your coach and players than it did to ours.

It was, after all, just another game and meant little to our position on the table.

But we have been touched up in the wet a couple of times this season and it is a bit of a worry.

Touched up in the wet... that sounds a bit rude, doesn't it?

 

[Knightmare]

You might have had the best team on form, but you didn't have the best team on the night. Could be the coaches fault, but it might just be the players fault too...

We are also talking about 2 teams that have struggled with the legacy they have - the Dragons have lost 6 (?) Grand Finals in succession now. Parramatta have struggled with the post-Sterling era. Two clubs that has struggled with more than just coaching - with expectation.

Newcastle simply didn't have that - had nothing to lose and had nothing expected of us.

That is another valid point, and why I am glad that right at the time Joey is gone for god, we have players like Mullen just starting to hit form and a coach like Smith in charge. You think things are bad now, I would hate to look at the ladder if Hagan was still coach.

P.S To say that losing 71-6 means Smith isn't a great coach is a load of crap. You had an Origin-strength Broncos team playing a third-string Knights team. I seem to remember a Broncos team missing only Tallis got rolled 44-0 by Newcastle in 2001. Does that mean Bennett is not a good coach?

 

[Burwood]

You often hear a popular anecdote that gets used when discussing Smith and the Parra side 'choking' in the 2001 Grand Final. Something to do with the Grand Final breakfast where the two teams came face-to-face, and the Newcastle players realised how nervous Parramatta- and in particular Smith himself- were at the function.

The Newcastle players were soaking up the ocassion and enjoying themselves, while the Parramatta outfit were getting all worked up. The story goes that Smith was so nervous about the result that his attitude in the lead up to the big match rubbed off onto his players.

While I don't believe that Smith's sides of 92/93 choked (they were the underdogs against a brilliant Broncos side), I do believe that he had a negative impact on parramatta's preparation in 2001. If he manages to get us to a grand final at Newcastle, it would be interesting to see whether his personality, or the culture of the club, (we are a very relaxed club) would be more of an influence on team dynamics.

 

[Newie is God's Country]

You often hear a popular anecdote that gets used when discussing Smith and the Parra side 'choking' in the 2001 Grand Final. Something to do with the Grand Final breakfast where the two teams came face-to-face, and the Newcastle players realised how nervous Parramatta- and in particular Smith himself- were at the function.

The Newcastle players were soaking up the ocassion and enjoying themselves, while the Parramatta outfit were getting all worked up. The story goes that Smith was so nervous about the result that his attitude in the lead up to the big match rubbed off onto his players.

While I don't believe that Smith's sides of 92/93 choked (they were the underdogs against a brilliant Broncos side), I do believe that he had a negative impact on parramatta's preparation in 2001. If he manages to get us to a grand final at Newcastle, it would be interesting to see whether his personality, or the culture of the club, (we are a very relaxed club) would be more of an influence on team dynamics.

That 92/93 Broncos side was one of the strongest club sides ever fielded. You would be hard pressed to keep half that side under the cap by today's standards. Hancock, Carne, Langer, Kevin Walters and Kerrod Walters, Renouf, Johns, Lazarus, Matterson etc. I agree that that is hardly choking. Noone would have beaten that side back then.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Look at both clubs rosters..... you should be sitting pretty with the mob you have had for the past 3 years! Then look at our team... made up of mostly jersey flegg players with 2 internationals. Yet...we still thrashed your mob by 24 points!!!!!!

The proof will be in the pudding over the next 3 years.....

Roughly that same squad finished 4th last year...

And you beat us after not playing for close to 3 weeks, even the commentators noticed the lack of match fitness, no coincidence that that win was a fluke, you cannot even beat the Roosters at home.

 

[jamesgould]

Smith didn't rate Hayne, Mateo, M Hodgson, Drew, Mogg etc

Who does?

As for Hayne, I am sick of people going on that he was being held back in reserve grade - and him himself sying "I was beginning to wonder if I would ever get a spot in first grade" in Big League a few weeks ago. The guy was 18! Many an 18 year old is probably playing well in reserve grade right now, but hasn't been selected for first grade yet - this hardly means the coach doesn't rate him! It means he's young!

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Who does?

As for Hayne, I am sick of people going on that he was being held back in reserve grade - and him himself sying "I was beginning to wonder if I would ever get a spot in first grade" in Big League a few weeks ago. The guy was 18! Many an 18 year old is probably playing well in reserve grade right now, but hasn't been selected for first grade yet - this hardly means the coach doesn't rate him! It means he's young!

NSW selectors, but i did mean B Hodgson.

Umm how old was Luke Burt when he played first grade? if he is good enough age should be irrelevent. JT thought age wasn't a problem a week after he left, and age didn't worry him playing SOO for NSW this year.

 

[Misanthrope]

Roughly that same squad finished 4th last year...

Roughly the same squad? You mean aside from Andrew Johns? That's a rather major departure to cope with.