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Parramatta Stadium Rebuild and other stuff

Suitman

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I said once that I didn’t get why the various incarnations of the metro are not universally compatible. Surprisingly, a merkin smarter than me agrees.


In conclusion

Sydney’s metro mania comes with a lot of hype. In reality, it is destined to be an extremely expensive and poorly thought through experiment found wanting as a cost-effective means of enhancing the metropolitan area’s public transport network. Compare it with London, Melbourne or Brisbane where new railway tunnels through the heart of each city will accommodate existing train services at improved frequencies and provide relief for all of their existing networks.

Overall, the cost of creating Sydney’s deliberately non-compatible metro rail system, let alone the cost of imposing it onto existing trackage such as the Bankstown line, substantially outweighs any imagined benefits from removing train drivers, privatising by stealth or marginally reducing tunnel bore size through the core of the CBD. Sydney will be increasingly vulnerable to service disruptions where train services can no longer be diverted onto alternative routes. Worst of all our first metro lacks the feeder routes that would provide enhanced congestion relief to the rest of the network and is limited to a ridership which is no more than half that which such a high-capacity system could readily sustain. The Parramatta to Sydney metro is poised to repeat this failure.




I'm all for this bloke (and his son) and you having an opinion but no, it's not that surprising that this merkin agrees. They have been anti-metro for years.
Their arguments and discussion are disingenuous at best, and full of misinformation, speculation and false facts at worst.
Honestly more of the same from these two.

Interestingly they never seem to understand the importance of frequency, reliability and speed in attracting passengers to railway travel even with the advent of WFH.

The SMH - the most anti-metro publication in this city have pedaled and re-hashed this crap. Mainly as clickbait.

February 20, 2023 -

And this was an article from the same two clowns dated 09/01/2023

That's a basic copy/paste of the same article you posted this morning, dated 9th June 2024.

As I said, they provide misinformation.
Examples are as follows: I'll refer to them as he from this stage as they both have the same opinion.

- He does not state that the reason for the E/C conversion was to create a seamless link from the fast growing NW metro area to the CBD on a single line which would improve travel times.
- He does not state that to build this line as a DD Sydney trains line (as originally proposed and would have similarly been tunnelled) would not have been any cheaper.
- He does not state that the running costs of a metro line are significantly lower than that of Sydney Trains.
- He does not state that the current metro line has massive scope for increased capacity. (8 car trains instead of the current 6 - and 2-minute frequencies instead of the current 4 during peak)
- He does not state that the new CSW extension of this metro actually provides connection to the current ST's system at Martin Place, Central and Sydenham
- He does not state that the current NW Metro provides connections to the ST's system at Epping and Chatswood improving connection reliability with the current system for customers.
- He doesn't state that the reason for the Bankstown conversion was to remove the T3 line and to free up capacity through the City Circle providing more capacity for other lines through the city circle. A good thing, wouldn't you think?
- He complains about the St Mary's - WSA line being a waste of money, stating there is nothing there atm and won't be for a long time, so the line will be a white elephant, and there won't be much demand. That may well be true initially, but what is great about this line is that it is building for the future, rather than retro installing stuff when it is too late. This infrastructure being initiated first will absolutely encourage development locally, as well as employment, housing, technology, freight, education, sporting infrastructure, parks and green space. Isn't it a good thing that we have infrastructure being built before development? Bradfield would be proud.
- He keeps using the WFH excuse that we don't need these metro lines because passenger demand to the city will never be needed again during peak hour and the current system coped ok. Ahm, ok. Why are developers still building office towers in the city that the current vacancy of office space keeps consuming?

He never mentions that if there is a problem on the metro, it effects one line - the metro. If there is a problem on the ST's system, it affects multiple, if not all lines because they are all integrated. There is a reason why metro lines are segregated.

He doesn't mention that it is forecast that by 2056, WSA will have a 2nd runway and terminal and will need the infrastructure of a high capacity metro line. Isn't it better that we build it now?

C'mon mate. You are smarter than this. You've travelled to cities throughout the world that have great metro systems. Surely you can see the benefits of the Metro infrastructure finally being introduced to this city
You would normally call these two blokes "cookers", but I assume it doesn't suit your views this time to use that term but that is exactly what they are.

I don't understand why pre-building infrastructure and future proofing Sydney's transport system with metro rail infrastructure is such a bad thing.
 

Suitman

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55,899
This airport is much larger than people think.
It has the capacity to expand and be larger than SYD within 30 years.

 
Last edited:
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11,670
I said once that I didn’t get why the various incarnations of the metro are not universally compatible. Surprisingly, a merkin smarter than me agrees.
I think it would just be good planning to ensure the different metro lines are compatible with each other? Otherwise it repeats the same stupidity of the different gauges used in the different states when heavy rail started in this country, resulting in border issues when it all joined up which took decades to resolve.

At least there was an excuse for the railway gauge incompatibility - as the different state governments weren't part of a federated country at the time. The difference in metro line compatibility issue arose with the one state transport system/government that made the decisions.
 

Suitman

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55,899
That makes no sense.
We've been through this before.
They are all individual lines and that is their purpose.
What is it about this that you lot don't get?
 
Messages
11,670
For starters, compatibility of the carriage stock across different lines would be efficient, so it can be used to cover maintenance or breakdown needs.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
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77,412
I'm all for this bloke (and his son) and you having an opinion but no, it's not that surprising that this merkin agrees. They have been anti-metro for years.
Their arguments and discussion are disingenuous at best, and full of misinformation, speculation and false facts at worst.
Honestly more of the same from these two.

Interestingly they never seem to understand the importance of frequency, reliability and speed in attracting passengers to railway travel even with the advent of WFH.

The SMH - the most anti-metro publication in this city have pedaled and re-hashed this crap. Mainly as clickbait.

February 20, 2023 -

And this was an article from the same two clowns dated 09/01/2023

That's a basic copy/paste of the same article you posted this morning, dated 9th June 2024.

As I said, they provide misinformation.
Examples are as follows: I'll refer to them as he from this stage as they both have the same opinion.

- He does not state that the reason for the E/C conversion was to create a seamless link from the fast growing NW metro area to the CBD on a single line which would improve travel times.
- He does not state that to build this line as a DD Sydney trains line (as originally proposed and would have similarly been tunnelled) would not have been any cheaper.
- He does not state that the running costs of a metro line are significantly lower than that of Sydney Trains.
- He does not state that the current metro line has massive scope for increased capacity. (8 car trains instead of the current 6 - and 2-minute frequencies instead of the current 4 during peak)
- He does not state that the new CSW extension of this metro actually provides connection to the current ST's system at Martin Place, Central and Sydenham
- He does not state that the current NW Metro provides connections to the ST's system at Epping and Chatswood improving connection reliability with the current system for customers.
- He doesn't state that the reason for the Bankstown conversion was to remove the T3 line and to free up capacity through the City Circle providing more capacity for other lines through the city circle. A good thing, wouldn't you think?
- He complains about the St Mary's - WSA line being a waste of money, stating there is nothing there atm and won't be for a long time, so the line will be a white elephant, and there won't be much demand. That may well be true initially, but what is great about this line is that it is building for the future, rather than retro installing stuff when it is too late. This infrastructure being initiated first will absolutely encourage development locally, as well as employment, housing, technology, freight, education, sporting infrastructure, parks and green space. Isn't it a good thing that we have infrastructure being built before development? Bradfield would be proud.
- He keeps using the WFH excuse that we don't need these metro lines because passenger demand to the city will never be needed again during peak hour and the current system coped ok. Ahm, ok. Why are developers still building office towers in the city that the current vacancy of office space keeps consuming?

He never mentions that if there is a problem on the metro, it effects one line - the metro. If there is a problem on the ST's system, it affects multiple, if not all lines because they are all integrated. There is a reason why metro lines are segregated.

He doesn't mention that it is forecast that by 2056, WSA will have a 2nd runway and terminal and will need the infrastructure of a high capacity metro line. Isn't it better that we build it now?

C'mon mate. You are smarter than this. You've travelled to cities throughout the world that have great metro systems. Surely you can see the benefits of the Metro infrastructure finally being introduced to this city
You would normally call these two blokes "cookers", but I assume it doesn't suit your views this time to use that term but that is exactly what they are.

I don't understand why pre-building infrastructure and future proofing Sydney's transport system with metro rail infrastructure is such a bad thing.

I have always questioned compatibility (and compatibility alone) and the presented reasons are mainly, it doesn’t matter. Why is this line a different guage or power system than others ? Apparently because we have bought a system off-the-shelf system from company X and it comes that way.

The compatibility has two issues to me. The compatibility of all metro lines and the future expansion into the heavy rail network.

Let’s deal with the latter first. It’s clear from the retro fitting of the Sydenham to Banktown line, that it will be inevitable that the older line will be modernised to a full metro one day. This is what government does. They build a 4 line highway and 30 years later spend double or triple to make it 6 lanes. I am fine with that as we don’t have a money tree. Expansion to metro modernisation will occur as needed.

It’s the lack of incompatibility the various metro lines that has me lost. Is it really as simple as “they come that way” ? Why wouldn’t it be better that they were compatible?

The airport line will use a 25 kilovolt alternating current to power the trains when it opens in 2026 while the Metro Northwest and Metro City and Southwest lines will operate on 1500 volt direct current.

As a result, the 12 autonomous trains to be built by German company Siemens for the airport line will be unable to run on the Metro Northwest and connecting City and Southwest line. The airport line’s trains will be about 30 centimetres wider than other metro trains to cater for flyers who are lugging bags.

The different electric current also means the 45 driverless trains built in India by French company Alstom for the city’s first two metro lines will be unable to be switched to run on the airport line. Neither will they be able to operate on the $25 billion Metro West line – the biggest of the four lines which is due to open in 2030 – because it will run on 25 kilovolts, too.

The airport line is being designed for trains comprising up to four carriages whereas those for the Northwest and City and Southwest lines can be trains up to eight carriages long.

Transport and planning consultant Alex Gooding said it was highly unusual for metro lines in the same city to be deliberately planned to be as different as the airport line was from both the Northwest and City and Southwest lines.

“We are building a system from the ground up, but the previous government appeared to have deliberately designed a range of incompatible features which makes no sense,” he said.

Gooding said a likely reason for the difference was that building the airport line to match the greater passenger capacity of the first two metro lines would have substantially increased the former’s cost, while it also avoided a “single-private operator monopoly” in Sydney.

“Instead of getting one metro, we will end up with three distinct and, to varying degrees, incompatible systems,” he said.

“Metros in cities overseas tend to have different lines but where possible they are built with consistent rail systems and trains.”


LINK
 
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11,670
If we've been through this before, and people still disagree with your answer... then maybe your answer is not convincing?

In your own words, you're all for the article authors and others having their own opinion - it just happens my opinion on the missed opportunity for compatibility of metro lines and stock (with other metro lines) is different to yours.

It does seem like Gronk pointed out the reason for the incompatibility is getting an off the shelf product from a particular company - rather than any specific planning for or benefit from the resulting incompatibility.
 

Suitman

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Messages
55,899
It’s the lack of incompatibility the various metro lines that has me lost. Is it really as simple as “they come that way” ? Why wouldn’t it be better that they were compatible?

The airport line will use a 25 kilovolt alternating current to power the trains when it opens in 2026 while the Metro Northwest and Metro City and Southwest lines will operate on 1500 volt direct current.

As a result, the 12 autonomous trains to be built by German company Siemens for the airport line will be unable to run on the Metro Northwest and connecting City and Southwest line. The airport line’s trains will be about 30 centimetres wider than other metro trains to cater for flyers who are lugging bags.

The different electric current also means the 45 driverless trains built in India by French company Alstom for the city’s first two metro lines will be unable to be switched to run on the airport line. Neither will they be able to operate on the $25 billion Metro West line – the biggest of the four lines which is due to open in 2030 – because it will run on 25 kilovolts, too.

The airport line is being designed for trains comprising up to four carriages whereas those for the Northwest and City and Southwest lines can be trains up to eight carriages long.

Transport and planning consultant Alex Gooding said it was highly unusual for metro lines in the same city to be deliberately planned to be as different as the airport line was from both the Northwest and City and Southwest lines.

“We are building a system from the ground up, but the previous government appeared to have deliberately designed a range of incompatible features which makes no sense,” he said.

Gooding said a likely reason for the difference was that building the airport line to match the greater passenger capacity of the first two metro lines would have substantially increased the former’s cost, while it also avoided a “single-private operator monopoly” in Sydney.

“Instead of getting one metro, we will end up with three distinct and, to varying degrees, incompatible systems,” he said.

“Metros in cities overseas tend to have different lines but where possible they are built with consistent rail systems and trains.”


LINK


The link you provided again makes misleading statements like the one I have highlighted in red.
Even if all the metro lines were compatible with the same rolling stock and power supply, they wouldn't be able to run on any of the other lines anyway because none of the lines are interconnected. The way it should be.
For example, how would you get the rolling stock from the NW/CSW metro to say, the City/Westmead metro. On the back of a semi-trailer?
All lines are independent of each other, as they should be. Therefore, if one line has problems, it does not affect any of the others.
Metro is different to ST's. If there is a problem on the intertwined ST's network, it can (and has) shut down the whole train system, affecting many, many more commuters. At the minimum, if there is a problem on one line, it will almost certainly affect more than one line.
This is why it does not matter that metro lines are not compatible.
Also, there are contingencies taken into account when purchasing rolling stock for each metro line. They always buy more rolling stock than needed.
Honestly mate, it's not the big deal some are making out. All of the noise is coming from those that are "anti-metro/Sydney Trains is best" dinosaurs.

There is also a lot of whining going on about the Bankstown Line 12 month shutdown. People conveniently forget that the Epping to Chatswood line was also shut down for conversion to metro and when it reopened, it didn't take long for commuters to realise how much improved, quicker and more reliable the service was.
Sure it was inconvenient at the time, but the short-term pain was replaced by long term gain.
 

hindy111

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Messages
62,867
I ha

ve always questioned compatibility (and compatibility alone) and the presented reasons are mainly, it doesn’t matter. Why is this line a different guage or power system than others ? Apparently because we have bought a system off-the-shelf system from company X and it comes that way.

The compatibility has two issues to me. The compatibility of all metro lines and the future expansion into the heavy rail network.

Let’s deal with the latter first. It’s clear from the retro fitting of the Sydenham to Banktown line, that it will be inevitable that the older line will be modernised to a full metro one day. This is what government does. They build a 4 line highway and 30 years later spend double or triple to make it 6 lanes. I am fine with that as we don’t have a money tree. Expansion to metro modernisation will occur as needed.

It’s the lack of incompatibility the various metro lines that has me lost. Is it really as simple as “they come that way” ? Why wouldn’t it be better that they were compatible?

The airport line will use a 25 kilovolt alternating current to power the trains when it opens in 2026 while the Metro Northwest and Metro City and Southwest lines will operate on 1500 volt direct current.

As a result, the 12 autonomous trains to be built by German company Siemens for the airport line will be unable to run on the Metro Northwest and connecting City and Southwest line. The airport line’s trains will be about 30 centimetres wider than other metro trains to cater for flyers who are lugging bags.

The different electric current also means the 45 driverless trains built in India by French company Alstom for the city’s first two metro lines will be unable to be switched to run on the airport line. Neither will they be able to operate on the $25 billion Metro West line – the biggest of the four lines which is due to open in 2030 – because it will run on 25 kilovolts, too.

The airport line is being designed for trains comprising up to four carriages whereas those for the Northwest and City and Southwest lines can be trains up to eight carriages long.

Transport and planning consultant Alex Gooding said it was highly unusual for metro lines in the same city to be deliberately planned to be as different as the airport line was from both the Northwest and City and Southwest lines.

“We are building a system from the ground up, but the previous government appeared to have deliberately designed a range of incompatible features which makes no sense,” he said.

Gooding said a likely reason for the difference was that building the airport line to match the greater passenger capacity of the first two metro lines would have substantially increased the former’s cost, while it also avoided a “single-private operator monopoly” in Sydney.

“Instead of getting one metro, we will end up with three distinct and, to varying degrees, incompatible systems,” he said.

“Metros in cities overseas tend to have different lines but where possible they are built with consistent rail systems and trains.”


LINK


You're very knowledgeable
How to run a Footy club expert
Political expert
Covid 19 expert
Add Metro train to the list.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
77,412
The link you provided again makes misleading statements like the one I have highlighted in red.
Even if all the metro lines were compatible with the same rolling stock and power supply, they wouldn't be able to run on any of the other lines anyway because none of the lines are interconnected. The way it should be.
For example, how would you get the rolling stock from the NW/CSW metro to say, the City/Westmead metro. On the back of a semi-trailer?
All lines are independent of each other, as they should be. Therefore, if one line has problems, it does not affect any of the others.
Metro is different to ST's. If there is a problem on the intertwined ST's network, it can (and has) shut down the whole train system, affecting many, many more commuters. At the minimum, if there is a problem on one line, it will almost certainly affect more than one line.
This is why it does not matter that metro lines are not compatible.
Also, there are contingencies taken into account when purchasing rolling stock for each metro line. They always buy more rolling stock than needed.
Honestly mate, it's not the big deal some are making out. All of the noise is coming from those that are "anti-metro/Sydney Trains is best" dinosaurs.

There is also a lot of whining going on about the Bankstown Line 12 month shutdown. People conveniently forget that the Epping to Chatswood line was also shut down for conversion to metro and when it reopened, it didn't take long for commuters to realise how much improved, quicker and more reliable the service was.
Sure it was inconvenient at the time, but the short-term pain was replaced by long term gain.
I hear you thanks.

Final questions;

If they build the connection between Tallawong and St Marys are those lines actually compatible?

If they extend the metro west from Westmead to WSA, are those lines going to be an entirely different setup as they arrive at the airport / aerotropolis ?

1717998476584.jpeg
 

Suitman

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Messages
55,899
I hear you thanks.

Final questions;

If they build the connection between Tallawong and St Marys are those lines actually compatible?

If they extend the metro west from Westmead to WSA, are those lines going to be an entirely different setup as they arrive at the airport / aerotropolis ?

View attachment 89380

I love that map and hope it comes to fruition but it will be 50 years or so before that will happen.

To answer your questions, no, the extension from Tallawong will only go to Schofields.
The extension north from St Mary's of the WSA line will be an interchange at Schofields with that line.

For the Metro West Line, there is space reserved at WSA beside the AP Line for an extra station box to interchange.
 
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emjaycee

Coach
Messages
13,808
I love that map and hope it comes to fruition but it will be 50 years or so before that will happen.

To answer your questions, no, the extension from Tallawong will only go to Schofields.
The extension north from St Mary's of the WSA line will be an interchange at Schofields with that line.

For the Metro West Line, there is space reserved at WSA beside the AP Line for an extra station box to interchange.
Not wanting to argue the point either way, but that map doesnt show a Metro interchange symbol at Schofields, it shows a direct trip from Macathur to Liverpool via Castle Hill.
 

Avenger

Immortal
Messages
33,967
Not wanting to argue the point either way, but that map doesnt show a Metro interchange symbol at Schofields, it shows a direct trip from Macathur to Liverpool via Castle Hill.
I'm going to start catching trains when they take my licence off me. They are basically for people who drink too much piss at the game.
 

Suitman

Post Whore
Messages
55,899
Not wanting to argue the point either way, but that map doesnt show a Metro interchange symbol at Schofields, it shows a direct trip from Macathur to Liverpool via Castle Hill.

No, it doesn't.
That's not what will happen though because the NW Metro will not be a continuous line to WSA.
It will be an interchange at Schofields or Marsden Park.
More likely Schofields.
 
Messages
11,670
Even if all the metro lines were compatible with the same rolling stock and power supply, they wouldn't be able to run on any of the other lines anyway because none of the lines are interconnected. The way it should be.
Do you mean there are no other means of getting the rolling stock from point a to point b. to meet such a need? How does the rolling stock get to the metro line in the first place from the factory... just employ the same means for financial efficiency when maintenance or other misadventure inevitably calls on a compatible line. The lines don't have to interconnect - they just had to planned to be compatible.
 

Gronk

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Staff member
Messages
77,412

1718616477765.png

Not getting the vibe of the old world charm. Keeping that stupid stand at the south end because reasons and plopping concrete all around it is stupid. Don’t bother keeping it if you are not going to install complimentary structures.

Not quite as stupid as the SGC scoreboard, but up there.

1718617244225.jpeg
 

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