Paul Green dies aged 49

[Wb1234]

Ahead of the curve in regards to shoulder charge? Not at all every other sport didn't have it for years before Rugby League got rid of it, it was a red card in Rugby while SBW was putting players in lala land in his younger days in the NRL.

Unions biggest problem is contested scrums which they had to get rid of and didn’t

there’s literally a big class action against the rfu today. With the state of English union today with clubs collapsing like a house of cards it’s a real worry for them

 

[Canard]

Unions biggest problem is contested scrums which they had to get rid of and didn’t

there’s literally a big class action against the rfu today. With the state of English union today with clubs collapsing like a house of cards it’s a real worry for them

See below (as I said this isn't unique to the NRL, and affects all football codes (AFL, NRL, Union, Soccer) and sports like cricket and baseball

Former players to take legal action against World Rugby

A group of former players have issued formal legal proceedings against World Rugby and the governing bodies of England (RFU) and Wales (WRU) over claims that the failure to protect them led to the early onset of dementia, British media reported.

www.espn.com.au

Clubs going into administration is unrelated to this class action though, and just more to do with poor administration (including the frankly stupid idea of selling off a massive chunk for their game to a private equity firm)

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/63244504#:~:text=Wasps%20have%20made%20167%20players,Worcester%20and%20will%20be%20relegated.

 

[Perth Red]

Paul Green being found to have suffered from a severe case of CTE does not necessarily mean that it caused his suicide, and I find the willingness of people to jump to the conclusion that it did to be quite a dangerous precedent.

That's not to say that it wasn't a, the main, or only, factor, or to say that it's impossible that brain damage as bad as this could be enough in of itself to push somebody to do such a thing. However correlation doesn't equal causation, and it'd take significantly more evidence than that that has been provided to support such a claim.

I think it's more than safe to say that CTE plays absolutely no part in the vast majority of suicides, and to negate other possible factors in such a publicised case would be a mistake. It's an especially bad idea when considering that many people are only doing so because it's a convenient thing to blame, or simply because some people find it emotionally distressing to believe that other potential factors could have played a significant part in his decision making.

I'm genuinely sorry if anybody finds this post upsetting, but unfortunately hard subjects like this need to be discussed in a frank, even cold, manner sometimes.

Dont disagree and could have had nothing to do with it but there is some evidence, all be it off very small sample groups at this point tin time, that people with CTE are suiciding (lot of this was based on a sudden increase in NFL player suicides around 2012-).
It would be interesting to compare suicide rates in CTE with suicide rates in other younger onset neurological conditions to see if there's a difference. I work in this space and have had a number of clients with other types of YOD who have suicided, often citing not wanting to put themselves and their families through the dementia journey, particularly people with FTD.
Like most things its probably not singular causation but may be a contributing factor in a multi factorial risk matrix.
Lets also not forget CTE isnt a new condition, it was first described in 1928 and has been commonly referred to as 'punch drunk' in the boxing fraternity for a century.

 

[Maximus]

Ahead of the curve in regards to shoulder charge? Not at all every other sport didn't have it for years before Rugby League got rid of it, it was a red card in Rugby while SBW was putting players in lala land in his younger days in the NRL.

Even now they are still legal as long as you play for certain clubs.

If Kikau does serious damage to someone, the NRL is in serious trouble as they have continually not punished him for his shoulder charges.

 

[hrundi99]

This has happened with former NHL players as well. There's enough evidence there to justify the link.

 

[Munky]

Looks like the media has jumped onto this now:

'I'm going to get a gun': Mother says she didn't believe son's threats before he died in police shootout

Daniel King went on a "significant bender" in the days before he was shot dead outside a Western Sydney police station, his inquest is told.

www.abc.net.au

This bloke was the hardest runner I've seen watching the lower grades back in mid 00s.

Went kamikaze in both attack and defence. Was stretchered off a few times due to the head knocks.

My post from seventeen years ago:

FLEGG: Bulldogs Vs Penrith

FLEGG PLAYING FOR TOP FOUR This Sunday is shaping as a crucial game in the Bulldogs race to the finals. A win by the 5th placed Dogs over the 10th placed Panthers would provide the young Bulldogs outfit with a great chance of grabbing a top four position and at the same time eliminate the...

forums.leagueunlimited.com

Unfortunately Daniel King is out injured (I think) for Penrith.

I love watching this guy play, my fave player in all grades actually.

He's a fullback but runs like Marty Lang and get knocked out just as often and he pole axes the opposition in defence.

 

[kdalymc]

As I mentioned before what about boxing. Your aim is to KO the bloke....
1 boxer around the globe dies in the ring per MONTH
90% of boxers end up with some sort of brain damage (can be f all, yes..)
All this talk about sports where you accidentally get hit in the head though....

 

[Perth Red]

As I mentioned before what about boxing. Your aim is to KO the bloke....
1 boxer around the globe dies in the ring per MONTH
90% of boxers end up with some sort of brain damage (can be f all, yes..)
All this talk about sports where you accidentally get hit in the head though....

not to mention UFC which is brutal! People die racing cars and bikes for money, its not about the risk, its about the risk mitigation and informed choice.

 

[Steel Saints]

CTE is too big of an issue for one sport like League to solve. I like to see a summit where all codes come together and discuss. Each sport is built differently and may have varying protocols, but there has to be some form of common ground where all sports have to abide by, otherwise they will face lawsuits.

 

[Canard]

As I mentioned before what about boxing. Your aim is to KO the bloke....
1 boxer around the globe dies in the ring per MONTH
90% of boxers end up with some sort of brain damage (can be f all, yes..)
All this talk about sports where you accidentally get hit in the head though....

Its not like CTE is NOT an issue for combat sports

 

[Perth Red]

Its not like CTE is NOT an issue for combat sports

Its been known in boxing for a hundred years. Never been sued for it.
It was probably just an accepted outcome in their sport by those who participated. I think where its unexpected like in our sport is where its now getting all the attention

 

[Maximus]

Its been known in boxing for a hundred years. Never been sued for it.
It was probably just an accepted outcome in their sport by those who participated. I think where its unexpected like in our sport is where its now getting all the attention

They also probably didn't deliberately hide or cover up research that showed the danger, unlike the NFL

 

[Perth Red]

They also probably didn't deliberately hide or cover up research that showed the danger, unlike the NFL

no, and thats why NFL lost the case. To our knowledge no other sport has been in that position hence why no other litigation has been successful. Like I keep saying its not the risk, its did the employer do everything reasonable to a) identify the risk b) minimise the risk c) Inform the employer of the risk

b) is where the players will have a crack. Then it will come down to what a court deems 'reasonable' in terms of risk mitigation.

 

[Canard]

no, and thats why NFL lost the case. To our knowledge no other sport has been in that position hence why no other litigation has been successful. Like I keep saying its not the risk, its did the employer do everything reasonable to a) identify the risk b) minimise the risk c) Inform the employer of the risk

b) is where the players will have a crack. Then it will come down to what a court deems 'reasonable' in terms of risk mitigation.

This pretty much nails it for mine.

There is no need to change laws to allow players to be exploited, or sign waivers etc.

 

[Canard]

I’m not suggesting a compete waiver, obviously there are certain steps that need to be taken. But ultimately, head knocks will happen, and happen regularly in a high speed, contact sport like rugby league, and more so, whiplash, which is just as dangerous from a concussion perspective. That cannot be eliminated or even minimised without fundamental changes to the game. It will take a decision in Court under the current legal framework to support the sport being able to continue without fundamental changes, and I don’t have confidence that can happen.

I don't believe waivers absolve duty of care or negligence by an employer or operator, and they very much can still be sued.

 

[Ozzi_78]

Paul Green being found to have suffered from a severe case of CTE does not necessarily mean that it caused his suicide, and I find the willingness of people to jump to the conclusion that it did to be quite a dangerous precedent.

That's not to say that it wasn't a, the main, or only, factor, or to say that it's impossible that brain damage as bad as this could be enough in of itself to push somebody to do such a thing. However correlation doesn't equal causation, and it'd take significantly more evidence than that that has been provided to support such a claim.

I think it's more than safe to say that CTE plays absolutely no part in the vast majority of suicides, and to negate other possible factors in such a publicised case would be a mistake. It's an especially bad idea when considering that many people are only doing so because it's a convenient thing to blame, or simply because some people find it emotionally distressing to believe that other potential factors could have played a significant part in his decision making.

I'm genuinely sorry if anybody finds this post upsetting, but unfortunately hard subjects like this need to be discussed in a frank, even cold, manner sometimes.

I was kinda saying similar in sharks forum but from an uneducated position and not as well written as your post.

To cut a long story short I was uncomfortable with the kids being told that “daddy’s brain was sick” and that’s why he did what he did.

I explained it like it might have been the straw but it wasn’t the bale, other factors are far more the cause than CTE, it merely aided the finality of it all.

 

[Perth Red]

I was kinda saying similar in sharks forum but from an uneducated position and not as well written as your post.

To cut a long story short I was uncomfortable with the kids being told that “daddy’s brain was sick” and that’s why he did what he did.

I explained it like it might have been the straw but it wasn’t the bale, other factors are far more the cause than CTE, it merely aided the finality of it all.

From the families point of view this is a much easier explanation and will be a relief for them. True or not we wont know for many many years, if ever, so let them have their bit of peace if it helps them deal with a terrible situation.

From a science point of view everyone has been very quick to jump on the suicide risk of CTE, largely based on a very very small study done on three athletes brains, two of who committed suicide, and a raft of NFL players that shot themselves in the last decade. Counteracting this is a study done on NFL players since the 60's and cause of death where it was found the suicide rate in that group was lower than the population avg suggesting they would likely have had CTE but suicide wasn't a big factor. Until we get more confirmed cases and causes of death it will be hard to say. We also need population group comparison not general comparison like we have at moment. ie how many people with CTE dont commit suicide, how many of same group variables commit suicide with and without CTE. we know chronic pain is a big risk factor for suicide, and we know this group often has long term chronic pain and injury. Things like that need to be considered in much more detail.

We only relatively recently developed affordable PET scanning technology to pick up abnormal Amyloid protein levels in the brain, we may soon have scanning that can detect Tau in similar way which will def aid diagnosis of the living.

I was at dementia conference last month where we had some keynotes on the topic and was surprised how much suicide was talked about given its not yet confirmed to be a definite key risk.

 

[The Great Dane]

Dont disagree and could have had nothing to do with it but there is some evidence, all be it off very small sample groups at this point tin time, that people with CTE are suiciding (lot of this was based on a sudden increase in NFL player suicides around 2012-).
It would be interesting to compare suicide rates in CTE with suicide rates in other younger onset neurological conditions to see if there's a difference. I work in this space and have had a number of clients with other types of YOD who have suicided, often citing not wanting to put themselves and their families through the dementia journey, particularly people with FTD.
Like most things its probably not singular causation but may be a contributing factor in a multi factorial risk matrix.

I don't disagree with any of this, my main point is simply that we (society as a whole) need to be very careful in cases like this as there's an extremely well researched link between reporting on famous cases of suicide and suicide rates.

It isn't good for anybody, not even Paul's loved ones, to play down the potential of other factors without very strong reasons to do so.

Lets also not forget CTE isnt a new condition, it was first described in 1928 and has been commonly referred to as 'punch drunk' in the boxing fraternity for a century.

This is a subject that's been frustrating me ever since CTE was first thrust into the spotlight.

It's not just boxing; every footy club, no matter the code, had at least a couple old boys whom had 'taken too many knocks to the head', 'had their 'brains bashed in', etc, so for people to pretend that we didn't know about the risks has always been nonsense.

For as long as I've been alive we've known that something was causing dementia like symptoms in a percentage of players of contact sports, and we knew that it was the contact that was causing it, we simply didn't understand exactly how it was happening.

 

[The Great Dane]

It was probably just an accepted outcome in their sport by those who participated.

Whether we like or not, I think that's probably the position all contact sports are going to have to embrace if they are they are to continue.

There's already pretty strong rumblings within medical institutions and parts of academia to at least ban kids from participating in contact sports, so it's only a matter of time before that sentiment permeates through the general public. I also think that we should be prepared for that sentiment to morph into a push to ban most contact sports completely.

I've already encounter people whom argue that allowing such sports to be broadcast on TV glorifies a dangerous practice that shouldn't be encouraged. To be very clear, those people weren't random crackpots on the internet either.

Anyway, the coming decades are going to be very interesting times for contact sports.

 

[kdalymc]

UFC which is brutal!

u get more brain damage with a glove on. you get more cuts in MMA.
its like getting hit with a sledge hammer vs a claw hammer