Qld Cup and NSW Cup

[KalgoorlieRed]

I know this subject may have come up previously, but doesn't it make sense for an interstate-cum-national lower leagues comp if the Qld Cup and NSW were merged? I am positive it would raise the profile and attract a TV deal and like the National Leagues in the UK, could be a platform for future NRL clubs like the WA Reds etc..?

 

[Lockyer4President!]

It's an idea that has been raised repeatedly by a user who used come here.

I'm split on the issue, one one hand it would be a great way to get some more money/publicity into the game and to crate a genuine national second tier (atm we have the Toyota Cup, QLD Cup, NSW Cup and JB Cup all vying to be the 2nd tier). It would also be a great way to bring up new clubs (like the WA Reds) and you'd like to think that the standard would be higher than what you'd currently find in the TC/QLDCup/NSWCUP/JBCup so it'd be more entertaining for fans.

On the other hand, how would you go about creating it without destroying a lot of current clubs. The QLD Cup seems to be just heading in the right direction with the addition of Cairns and Mackay this year and the Sunshine Coast next year. That means it'll have 12 clubs, most of those wouldn't be in this new 2nd tier comp, so what happens to them? Promotion and relegation wouldn't work imo as it'd just end up like it is in the UK SL/NL's. Seems unfair to punish some QLD Cup clubs just because NSW can't get their own house in order.

How would the NSW clubs, under the pump from the new pokie laws, be able to cope with the increased travel from Sydney to Cairns and Perth and Auckland? The clubs would need a lot of funding that could be better spent elsewhere.



Just as an aside, what'd be your reaction to a NRL reserve grade comp? It'd obviously do more to damage the current QLD Cup and NSW Cup etc than your proposal but it'd also be more professionally run and fans would instantly be able to identify with the clubs. We could also bring new clubs through this way without too many hassles too.

 

[Different kind of Rabbit]

I've often thought about this and if you put the money needed to do it, aside for a second, the best way to do it would be, merge the QLD and NSW cups together, add a junior team under the Storm. Include a team from PNG and play their games between the top end and PNG. Include also WA and a team or possibly two from NZ. If you look at it like that, you would have 12 teams from QLD, probably around 8 from NSW and three from elsewhere. 22 rounds everyone plays each other once each.

Benefit would be that you could look at expansion opportunities without putting a full NRL franchise into an area. For instance, if PNG was drawibng good crowds at this level then you could build on that for an NRL franchise and when you kick one off, you would already have some members and a lower grade team full of juniors for them.

 

[rwaite]

According to the Courier Mail, Ross Livermore lured Intrust Super into sponsoring the QLD Cup on the likely promise of a finals series between the two comps (QLD & NSW Cups) that would follow the Qld Cup finals. Brilliant idea if you ask me!

It would be very cool to have a national comp with these teams but the costs would be higher with the extra travel so I think just a final series mixing teams from each state will suffice. Plus NSW really needs to start getting some NSW Country teams involved and make it a true statewide comp like the QLD Cup.

 

[Goldfields_Titans]

Would be ace if the QRL and NSWRL pulled their fingers out and made this happen, but will the Blazers allow it???

 

[Quidgybo]

Would be ace if the QRL and NSWRL pulled their fingers out and made this happen, but will the Blazers allow it???

Well with the advent of the Independent Commission is it any longer a decision for the "Blazers"? If the Commission decides to start its own second tier comp in 2013 using cash from a bumper new TV deal, how would the state bodies stop it? If the Commission calls for bids for eighteen second tier franchises with a guaranteed grant of say $500,000 per year for five years, how are the QRL and NSWRL going to match it to keep their clubs loyal? The money, and thus the power to make things happen, is with the Commission.

Leigh

 

[XXXX Cap]

If the Commission calls for bids for eighteen second tier franchises with a guaranteed grant of say $500,000 per year for five years,

And I might win the World Heavyweight title at the same time. :roll:

 

[Quidgybo]

Which bit do you find so hard to believe? That the Commission *could* fund their own second tier comp (there is no doubt, they'll have the money and independent power to do it), or that the Commission *will* fund their own second tier comp (the NRL already runs their own youth comp, their own second tier is a natural extension), or that the Commission would fund it as well as I've indicated ($45m over five years really isn't much if the next TV deal brings in $1b over a similar period)?

Leigh.

 

[Goldfields_Titans]

They could easily find a tv deal for a 2nd tier semi-pro comp surely?

 

[adamkungl]

Looks like the 3 main options for 'improving' (depends on your opinion i guess) the second tier are
- Continue to expand the NSW and QLD Cups, and play off in either a Grand Final or Finals series (top 4 from each?)
- Create a national 2nd tier comp with NSW and QLD Cup sides + some interstate sides, using existing clubs. Some would obviously miss out due to size limitations. The NSW and QLD Cups could still exist as a 3rd tier. The big negative here is the QLD Cup will drop in quality and prestige, but the successful clubs that jump up will get a massive boost.
- Create a national 2nd tier comp with NRL teams. Obvious advantage of having identifiable reserve grade sides and having 3 games to watch. Disadvantage of decimating the NSW and QLD Cups.

 

[RL Tragic]

Think option 1 is the way to go (due to travel costs) while the final series between the 2 would be a good way to end the season on Grand Final day. But would like to see us get away from calling them NSW and QLD Cups - what about Northern and Southern Conferences could even look to having them sponsored by the one company giving them great exposure.

 

[flippikat]

Think option 1 is the way to go (due to travel costs) while the final series between the 2 would be a good way to end the season on Grand Final day. But would like to see us get away from calling them NSW and QLD Cups - what about Northern and Southern Conferences could even look to having them sponsored by the one company giving them great exposure.

Good call - and you can add some interstate teams in the mix.

If we put teams in from Adelaide, Wellington, Christchurch etc, they can form the basis for an eventual NRL bid - in terms of 'back-office' operations, branding, sponsorship, membership, merchandising, and so on.

All gearing up for the next round of NRL expansion.

You can even get creative and put a Melbourne team in (testing the waters for a 2nd Melbourne NRL team) or even a Geelong or Tasmanian team.

A second tier competition, done well on a modest budget could open doors for the game in places we haven't seriously considered yet.

 

[Seagullsrock]

You can even get creative and put a Melbourne team in (testing the waters for a 2nd Melbourne NRL team) or even a Geelong or Tasmanian team.

And are we going to play with a red ball as well?:roll:

 

[Quidgybo]

You can even get creative and put a Melbourne team in (testing the waters for a 2nd Melbourne NRL team) or even a Geelong or Tasmanian team.

And are we going to play with a red ball as well?:roll:

A second Melbourne based team that is funded, owned and administered independently of the Storm is an absolute must for inclusion in a major second tier comp. Both as the foundation of a future second Melbourne based NRL team in 20 to 30 years, and as a quick replacement to step up to the NRL if News Ltd ever pull the plug on the Storm.

The second tier really needs to be treated as more than just a place for NRL teams to play their excess players. It needs to be a home for strongly followed traditional teams who can no long compete at the top level (eg. Newtown, Brisbane Easts etc). And it needs to be a place for large markets that either aspire to host NRL franchises in the short to medium term (Wellington, Perth, Adelaide), or are future targets but not yet big enough to host NRL franchises (Mackay, Sunshine Coast).

Perhaps less so Geelong and Tasmania but Albury-Wodonga should definitely be a target for the second tier as a potential future market not yet big enough for an NRL side. It would be able to build on the stength of Rugby League in southern NSW (probably as a Raiders affliate for their excess NRL squad players), provide a ongoing defensive presence against further AFL encroachment into southern NSW, and it would open our own beach head as a gateway into country Victoria.

Leigh

 

[Mike_Jets]

Central Coast Ipswich
North Sydney Rockhampton
Windsor Cairns
Cabramatta Redcliffe
West Subs Sunshine Coast
Illawara Geelong
Newtown NT
Wellington WA
Adelaide Mackay
Albury-Wodonga East Tigers

20 teams and still some missing from the list

What about 2nd and 3rd tiers? Both with a Northern and Southern Conference
8 teams per conf

 

[Quidgybo]

You're making the mistake of trying to please every place at once.

I'd suggest any national second tier comp should be pegged to the same number of teams as the NRL to allow every team access to excess NRL players. By ensuring every club has a one to one affiliate with an NRL team you also ensure that every team gets a similar level of funding from an NRL team. This would mean that as the NRL expands, the second tier comp also expands - starting at 16 teams in 2012 and probably expanding to 18 in 2013.

The thing to keep in mind is that by keeping the second tier clubs as separate entities and just having affiliate arrangements with NRL teams, the location of the second tier teams doesn't need to mirror the NRL. There's no need to have 9 teams in Sydney just because the NRL does. Another team in west Sydney that is over shadowed by three existing NRL teams doesn't help the game nearly as much as Perth or Cairns teams in the second tier. Who affiliates with who is left open to the teams themselves to create competition for affiliate arrangements.

So you might start off with 16 teams in 2012 based largely on the Queensland Cup...

Souths-Logan, Brisbane Norths, Wynnum-Manly, Redcliffe, Brisbane Easts, Ipswich
Sunshine Coast, Cairns, Mackay, Tweed Heads, Central Queensland
Auckland Vulcans, WA Reds, Newtown, North Sydney, Melbourne 2

Then if the WA Reds move up to the NRL, three new teams in 2013 to bring it to 18...

Wellington, Adelaide, Albury-Wodonga

Then if say Wellington and Sunshine Coast move up to a 20 team NRL in 2018, then four new teams to bring it up to 20...

Toowoomba, Mid-West NSW, Christchurch, Perth 2

The point is, we don't need to fill every market on day one. As the NRL expands the second tier will also expand, opening up new opportunities as the number of teams increases. If the NRL starts looking to the second tier for new teams then as sides move up, even more opportunities will open to fill the place of the team moving up.

Leigh.

 

[Seagullsrock]

Glad some of you aren't in charge of running the game. Are you two going to provide the money for these teams? Going to import some people from overseas to support them as well?

 

[Quidgybo]

Are you two going to provide the money for these teams?

No the television networks will fund it via the $800m to $1b they'll pay for the NRL rights for the five or six years from 2013. Allocating about $50m of that $800 to $1b over the same period would allow an annual $500k grant to each of the second tier clubs. And the NRL clubs will fund it via the $200k or so each of them currently pay their affiliates each year to provide a place for their excess players. There's $700k per club per season before local and competition sponsorship, and before competition television rights.

Going to import some people from overseas to support them as well?

The teams would be supported by the same people who today support a Queensland Cup team in Mackay, an SG Ball side in Perth, and a NSW Cup club in Auckland. This isn't some fantasical leap, it's building on what we're already able to do before we even bring in centralised funding from a cashed up Independent Commission and the advantages of a competition that can be marketed nationally.

Leigh.

 

[rwaite]

I read with great interest the plan for the North East Australian Football League - http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsartic...1/default.aspx.

It shows a great model for how the Qld and NSW Cups could be intertwined with a Australian final series following each competitions' own grand final.

In the NEAFL model there are two conferences (like our two state comps) and the winners of each conference playing off for the NEAFL flag. There are to be a number of cross conferences games during the year. I am not sure of the point of the cross-conference games since only the winners of the conference grand finals play for the NEAFL flag. Northern Territory is playing in the northern conference.

I would love to see a final series between the top four teams from the QLD & NSW Cups and the possibility of a final series was one factor which Ross Livermore used to help get InSuper on board to sponsor the QLD Cup. Would like to know where those plans are at now.

You could also have cross competition games between QLD & NSW clubs in a pre-season or midweek knockout competition.

Auckland play in the NSW Cup. In time it would be good to have teams from Perth, NT, Melbourne, Adelaide & PNG all playing as well in either the QLD or NSW Cups.​

 

[lturner]

Glad some of you aren't in charge of running the game. Are you two going to provide the money for these teams? Going to import some people from overseas to support them as well?

Don't you think Wynnum could cut it in this comp without any imports?