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Questions for any RL historians

Big Sam

First Grade
Messages
8,976
Prompted by today's remembrance of all Australians and New Zealanders who have served and fallen in warfare:

- Why wasn't the NSWRL comp suspended during both World Wars when other sports comps e.g. Sheffield Shield were?

- Does anyone know of any RL players who served or can provide me with links to articles on RL players and the military?
 

1 Eyed TEZZA

Coach
Messages
12,420
Pretty sure the armed forces asked for League and Horse Racing to continue.

Sean Fagan was mentioned in an article just today about it.
 
Messages
21,880
Article from David Middleton,

http://www.nrl.com/rugby-leagues-anzac-heroes/tabid/10874/newsid/62370/default.aspx



Rugby league's Anzac heroes
By David Middleton
NRL.com
Thu 21st April, 9:30am

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Picture if you will Mark Gasnier decked out in khaki, wading through a swamp in a steaming tropical jungle or Anthony Minichiello in the cockpit of a Spitfire flying reconnaissance over the Pacific. It is just as hard to imagine Jamie Soward parachuting behind enemy lines or Mitchell Pearce manning a machine gun nest. But those were the type of scenarios that confronted the sporting public in the 1940s as their footballing idols left their boots and jerseys in the locker rooms and enlisted in the services.

It would have been no different in World War I when the very players who were so familiar to legions of supporters signed up with the AIF to join the "big game" overseas.

Leading rugby league players have served in major conflicts from the Boer War to Vietnam. Many have been decorated as heroes, some were captured and incarcerated in Prisoner of War camps and, tragically, many were wounded and killed.

It was for this reason that former Roosters' CEO Bernie Gurr approached his Dragons' counterpart Peter Doust a decade ago to propose an annual Anzac Day clash between two of the game's most traditional clubs.

It was an opportunity to remember the deeds of all Australians who have served in overseas conflicts but especially those rugby league players who made the ultimate sacrifice in times of war.

The history of both outfits is rich with stories of former players who served in the armed forces.

Daniel Frawley, the Eastern Suburbs winger in the club's first premiership match in 1908 and later a member of the First Kangaroos, served with an Australian regiment in South Africa during the Boer War.

Easts' other original winger, Johnno Stuntz, who scored four tries in that first game, later enlisted in the AIF only to be killed by machine-gun fire at Bullecourt in France in 1917.

Easts lost centre Bob Tidyman, a Test player in 1914, who was reported missing in action near the scene of heavy fighting near Boulogne in the winter of 1916. His body was never recovered although personal effects, including a NSW Leagues Club ticket with his name on it were later found where he was believed to have fallen.

Members of the club's trifecta of premiership wins from 1911-13, Harold Corbett, Percy White, Tom Bruce and Ernest Gowenlock all fell on French battlefields before the end of World War I.

Many well-known Roosters players also served in the second World War, among them former internationals Wally O'Connell and Ferris Ashton.

Hooker Harold 'Nick' Dalton, who made a couple of fleeting appearances in the top grade for Easts in 1939 and 1941, died of wounds in New Guinea, where he served with an Anti-Aircraft Regiment.

George 'Bluey' Carstairs played in the centres in St George's first team in 1921 and became the club's first Kangaroo tourist later that year. He was a veteran of World War I and later served in the second World War where he had the unnerving distinction of reading his own obituary, which appeared in newspapers in 1940.

Saints suffered tragic losses in World War II. Centre Len Brennan, who played 40 top grade games in the early 1930s was a Flight Sergeant with the RAAF and was aboard a Wellington bomber which disappeared on a raid to Pantellaria, Italy in 1943.

Jack Lennox, a centre in the club's first grand final team in 1930, was captured by the Japanese during the fall of Singapore early in 1942. He was originally sent to the notorious Changi prison but was later transferred to work on the Burma-Thailand railway. He died in a prison hospital in December, 1943.

Jack Simpson, a halfback from Brisbane who played with the club in 1936, served with the RAAF's 460 Squadron and was killed in an accident aboard a Lancaster bomber in England in 1944.

And Spencer Walklate, a prop from the NSW North Coast, was reported missing in action off Muschu Island in New Guinea in 1945 when he escaped the Japanese with three members of his "Z" Special Unit commando force aboard a raft.

The memories of those who fought and those who died will be honoured in a special ceremony before the Roosters and the Dragons square off at the Sydney Football Stadium on Monday afternoon.

Lest we forget.
 
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21,880
And one from Ian heads,

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/n...ht-for-australia/story-e6frfgbo-1226044184678

The first-grade rugby league players who also fought for Australia
Ian Heads
The Daily Telegraph
April 25, 2011 12:00AM

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Anywhere will do...A team of Australian soldiers from the British Commonwealth Occupation Force take on a team made up of crew members of HMS Shropshire on cleared ground among the ruins of Hiroshima in 1946, a year after the dropping of the atomic bomb on the city in August 1945. Picture: Australian War Memorial

FOR the football warriors of the Dragons and the Roosters, certainty awaits at the end of this afternoon's Anzac Day battle: a winner, a loser - and, afterwards, yarns to tell.

No such sureness exists in the stories of Bob Tidyman and Spencer Walklate, who long ago pulled on those same club colours worn today.

Young men of great potential as rugby league players, both died in the World Wars of the 20th Century - Tidyman the First, Walklate the Second.

The exact circumstances of their deaths remain cloaked in eternal mystery. But it is such stories that provide the sobering backdrop for today's generation of players - a jolting reminder of the link that exists between rugby league and war of young men leaving home and mates, and sailing away to uncertain fate.

Robert Richardson (Bob) Tidyman was a genuine star with Easts in the years 1913-15, a dashing wingman who played two Tests for Australia in 1914, one of them the famous "Rorke's Drift" epic.

HONOUR ROLL: CLICK HERE FOR A LIST OF RUGBY LEAGUE PLAYERS WHO WENT TO WAR AND NEVER RETURNED

In late 1915 he enlisted, following his two younger brother's to Europe's battlegrounds.

He left Australia in April 1916 and by September was with the men of the 19th Battalion in the ghastly trenches of the Somme.

Within two months he lay dead in the mud and slush and withering cold at Flers on the Western Front.

Historian Geoff Armstrong's fine examination of his life in the Roosters' official history (From Where the Sun Rises), delves into the mystery of how and exactly where Bob Tidyman died, listing various theories - the most likely being that he was overpowered and killed after being put in charge of 50 German captives.

The following year (1917) there came a remarkable postscript, in the form of a letter from France to a Sydney newspaper.

A lower-grade league referee, Private R.B Fitzpatrick of the 4th Battalion, told of how he and another soldier had found a body alongside which lay an old rugby league membership ticket, with the name R. Tidyman just discernible on the envelope.

Even though they were under fire, Fitzpatrick and his companion buried the body, with army censorship preventing identification of the location.

GALLERY: LEAGUE STARS WHO PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE

That place of Bob Tidyman's death and burial was never marked or found, although he is recognised, along with 11,000 other Aussies, at the Australian National Memorial at Villers Bretonneux.

Spencer Walklate, a highly promising forward, made a big impression when he came down from the North Coast to join St George in 1943.

He played 15 first grade games for the Saints, but on enlistment was posted overseas with a commando unit (Z Special).

Don Dennis, author of the book The Guns of Muschu, tells how on the night of April 11, 1945, eight commandos, including Walklate, landed on the Japanese-held Muschu Island, off the coast of New Guinea.

The mission went tragically wrong and Dennis records how the place became a "killing ground" - and only one of the eight survived.

On the fate of Spencer Walklate, he wrote later: "We believe we've determined that he was captured and executed by the Japanese."

Stories of rugby league players at, or during wars, punctuate the game's 104 seasons.

Historian David Middleton has recorded an even longer connection: that Dan Frawley, Easts' star winger in the game's Foundation Year 1908, served in the Boer War (1899-1902).

I have been told many other tales via conversations, or things learned about rugby league men, over the years, including:

HOW the great Rabbitoh captain and forward Jack Rayner bore a scar on one knee - legacy of a Japanese bayonet lunge in New Guinea.

The admirable Rayner also shared privately with family the saddest of all his memories - witnessing two brothers burying a third, younger brother in the mud alongside the Kokoda Track;

TINY Clem Kennedy (Souths), remembering New Guinea, where he fought on the Kokoda Track: "I was in the final assault on Gona Beach when the Japs came in and we were waiting for them ... and we were lucky enough to get them away";

OF Dick Dunn, a legendary Easts figure, recalling the week-to-week struggle to keep sport going as Prime Minister Menzies had encouraged: "We'd have players available one week, and not the next. Some weren't seen again until the following season. You just got on with the game";

EASTS' great Wally O'Connell portraying the way it was after the attack on Sydney by the Japanese midget submarines (May 1942): "That year for training Souths and Easts shared use of the Sydney Sports Ground. We would have 20 minutes each on a Tuesday and Thursday.

As darkness came, the lights would be off - and we'd head home"; and

HOW the most famous of commentators Frank Hyde was told years later that he had been pencilled in as captain of the proposed 1941 Kangaroo touring team.

There was, of course, no tour in '41 because of the War and Hyde never wore the green and gold.

All such yarns are woven into the fabric of today's big occasion. The casual chat 10 years ago between rival CEOs Bernie Gurr (Roosters) and Peter Doust (Dragons) that locked Dragons v Roosters into the tradition was a moment of inspiration, cementing a realty which had existed informally since the 1920s: that the morning Anzac march and gatherings and two-up games of April 25 were inevitably followed by a trek to Moore Park to watch rugby league.

Football is not war, and parallels must be handled with the utmost care.But rugby league's link down the years stands as a very genuine one and this afternoon two stout-hearted coaches in Wayne Bennett and Brian Smith will get their messages across - and respect for traditions and the sadness and bravery of things past will fill the dressing rooms and the stadium.

Ian Heads is a highly respected journalist, author and rugby league historian whose father George was killed in New Guinea in 1944
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
Prompted by today's remembrance of all Australians and New Zealanders who have served and fallen in warfare:

- Why wasn't the NSWRL comp suspended during both World Wars when other sports comps e.g. Sheffield Shield were?

- Does anyone know of any RL players who served or can provide me with links to articles on RL players and the military?

The comp was Sydney based (unlike the Sheffield Shield) and for morale reasons was continued during the wars. (as was horse racing)

Many grade players enlisted during WW1 and WW2 (including test players) with a number of them not returning from service. If you like I can provide a list of Wests players who served.

Bobby Fulton was a nasho during Vietnam and actually played in an Australian Services Rugby Union team against a touring international rugby side - apparently he carved them up.
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
Excellent question and great responses.

Dunno of hr has been mentioned, but its worth reading upon Duncan Thompson's story. He returned from France with a lung injury (some say one lung was f*cked from shrapnel), and to cope playing footy (at Norths as a halfback), he invented the concept of the playmaking half - setting up attacking plays for the others to do all the "work" so to speak. Norths won their only two premierships on the back of his work, and he captained the first Ashes winning Kangaroo tour to England. Those sides broke records that still exist today. He was possibly our best ever halfback before Johns.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
Rugby league & cricket were continued to give the public an avenue to escape from the grim realities of war & to promote hope by giving the public something to look forward to.

A lot of games, official & exhibition were played that donated most gate takings to the war effort.

There were a large number of league players who served in wars, only the prominent league players are really known.

Its worth noting that the first full time secretary of the game, Edward Larkin, who was a labor politician, died at Lone Pine after being shot by Turkish machine guns at near point blanc range. He was so savagely wounded that ANZAC soldiers assumed the Turks had tortured & mutilated him, which angered them all.

His body was never recovered, his name is listed at the Lone Pine memorial among the many others whose bodies were never recovered.

Larkin's brother died with him at the same battle.

Larkin enlisted with the Army when his Labor leader & PM Billy Hughes was pushing for conscrption. The first rugby league president, Henry Hoyle, was a senior MP in Hughes' government & was also pro conscription.
 

CC_Roosters

First Grade
Messages
5,221
Prompted by today's remembrance of all Australians and New Zealanders who have served and fallen in warfare:

- Why wasn't the NSWRL comp suspended during both World Wars when other sports comps e.g. Sheffield Shield were?

- Does anyone know of any RL players who served or can provide me with links to articles on RL players and the military?

I am fairly sure the vfl continued as well
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
Excellent question and great responses.

Dunno of hr has been mentioned, but its worth reading upon Duncan Thompson's story. He returned from France with a lung injury (some say one lung was f*cked from shrapnel), and to cope playing footy (at Norths as a halfback), he invented the concept of the playmaking half - setting up attacking plays for the others to do all the "work" so to speak. Norths won their only two premierships on the back of his work, and he captained the first Ashes winning Kangaroo tour to England. Those sides broke records that still exist today. He was possibly our best ever halfback before Johns.

Mate, reading that allows me to state that Duncan Thompson was our greatest ever half-back, followed by Yappy.

Just a little more on Bozo playing for the Services Union Team; apparently the opposition coach after the game approaches the services coach and goes: "f**k me, why isn't that 5/8 playing for the wallabies" Response: "Ahh, he is a test rugby league player". Opposition coach: "Thank f**k for that".
 
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RedVee

First Grade
Messages
6,473
Mate, reading that allows me to state that Duncan Thompson was our greatest ever half-back, followed by Yappy.

Just a little more on Bozo playing for the Services Union Team; apparently the opposition coach after the game approaches the services coach and goes: "f**k me, why isn't that 5/8 playing for the wallabies" Response: "Ahh, he is a test rugby league player". Opposition coach: "Thank f**k for that".

More likely : "what's Rugby League?"
It is a Union bloke talking.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
Mate, reading that allows me to state that Duncan Thompson was our greatest ever half-back, followed by Yappy.

Just a little more on Bozo playing for the Services Union Team; apparently the opposition coach after the game approaches the services coach and goes: "f**k me, why isn't that 5/8 playing for the wallabies" Response: "Ahh, he is a test rugby league player". Opposition coach: "Thank f**k for that".
I wrote an article for the Forum 7's in 2008 about Duncan Thompson. It's also on my blog:

http://andrewrlp.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/downs-fox-2008.html

Another RL Player who went to war is Keith Holman, who I wrote an article about for the Wests Tigers website last month.

http://www.weststigers.com.au/news-display/tigers/71229

For those keen, go and buy/borrow the book, The Guns of Muschu http://www.gunsofmuschu.com/home.html - scroll halfway down the page) which is about an small elite group of Australian soldiers sent to Japan to locate anti aircraft guns. One of those elite men was Spencer Walklate, a Dragons player.

List of other notable players who served in war and played first grade rugby league:
Ferris Ashton (WWII - Navy on HMAS Kuttabul)
Brian Bevan (WWII - Navy)
Tedda Brooks (WWI - AIF)
William Buckley (WWII - AIF)
Neville Butler (WWII - RAAF)
George Carstairs (WWI & WWII - AIF)
Ken Charlton (WWII - RAAF)
Frank Cheadle (WWI - AIF)
Syd Christensen (WWII - AIF)
Eddie Collins (WWII - AIF & RAAF)
Jim Comans (WWII - RAAF)
Cec Cooper (WWII - AIF)
Les Cowie (WWII - AIF)
Arch Crippin (WWII - RAAF)
Steve Darmody (WWI - British Army)
Bill Davoran (WWII - RAAF)
Fred de Belin (WWII - AIF)
Pat Devery (WWII - AIF & Navy on HMAS Watson)
Joe Doyle (WWII - RAAF)
Tom Ezart (WWII - AIF)
Jim Flattery (WWII - Navy on HMAS Penguin)
Keith Froome (WWII - AIF)
Don Graham (WWII - AIF)
Rex Harrison (WWII - AIF)
Gordon Hart (WWII - RAAF)
Jack Holland (WWII - AIF)
Henry Holloway (RAAF in Japan in 1950)
Keith Holman (WWII - RAAF)
Ken Kearney (WWII - RAAF)
Clem Kennedy (WWII - AIF)
Jack Lennox (WWII - AIF)
Edgar Newham (WWII - AIF)
Sid McFarlane (WWI - AIF)
Len Pegg (WWII - RAAF)
Albert Rosenfeld (WWI - AIF)
Len Smith (WWII - AIF)
Duncan Thompson (WWI & WWII - AIF)
Spencer Walklate (WWII - AIF)

Administrator
Edward Larkin (WWI - AIF)

There is undoubtedly more though, especially for WWI
 

Mr Spock!

Referee
Messages
22,502
I know but I don't give a stuff about them. Thankfully everyone's provided me with some links/articles to answer my questions.

Actually I thought Barassi's book which honoured VFL players who fought in the wars would be a great thing for rugby league and cricket to emulate.

Great thread btw.

(Just on cricket AEJ Collins has the highest individual cricket score in all forms of cricket 628 not out. He was killed at the first battle of Ypres in 1914)
 

russ13

First Grade
Messages
6,824
This is a good book about the sportsmen POWs at Changi:


http://books.google.com.au/books?id...a=X&ei=xUB7UdKkDYOfiQf5toGwDg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA
Extract about the rugby codes:

Rugby at Changi

At Changi, rugby union does not seem to have fulfilled its traditional role as an avenue for rivalry between Australia & Britain. Just as Australian Rules overtook rugby union as the game ordinary Australian POWs preferred to play among themselves, so too did rugby league. Surprising, it was rugby league that was played among the Australian units and not rugby union.

Merve Neil was a player in the 2/10th Field Regiment, which led the Changi rugby league competition. Neil recalled, 67 years later at his Brisbane home, how he played rugby league in Changi when he was 22 years old:

It was odd I played rugby league in Changi and not rugby union, as the official game was rugby union. I was a winger & I cannot recall a signal lineout, so I could not have played rugby union.


Rugby league was not supported or officially played in the AIF, despite its being popular among the men, particularly the Queenslanders, and in spite of protests from rugby league club organisations.

There were several reasons why ordinary soldiers preferred to play and watch rugby league rather than rugby union. Rugby union was perceived as the game of the ‘silvertails’ or the upper clases, and therefore also of the army high command, the people the ordinary soldier blamed for their defeat in Malaya. Rugby league was seen as the ‘game of the masses.’
After the surrender of Singapore, the army high command found it difficult to regain the respect of the ordinary soldiers and were in no position to restrict them to the official game of rugby union for no real reason. More pragmatically, the fast flow of rugby league made it a game both players and pectators preferred. The kind of tactics commonly used in rugby union at the time tended to produce a slower game.

However, it was not just Changi that rugby league became popular. WWII helped spread rugby league more widely, as many me in the armed services preferred it to rugby union.

...there were reasons why elite rugby union players were prepared to switch to rugby league inside Ghangi. As noted most of the Australian POWs preferred rugby league to rugby union...

Among the many converts from rugby union was Captain Gordon King Marshall, a young British doctor in the Hospital area. He recorded in his diary his ‘conversion; from Cambridge University rugby union to Changi rugby league devotee. It was a gradual proess that occurred over several months. On Tuesday 4th May 1942, Marshall described his first encounter with rugby league at Changi:”This evening I went down and watched the Aussies play in their Rugby League game. Quite amusing. I also had a short run around in preparation for tomorrow (A British RU game).”

On Thursday, 23 September 1943, Marshall and the other staff of the Roberts Barrack Hospital put a team in the Australian Rugby League competition. They were mainly RU players and took a while to understand the differences between the two codes and the tactic required:”This evening we played the Aussies at league rugger and were beaten 10 – 0. We didn’t cotton to the forward game and were badly handicapped, still the game was played in the best of spirits.”

The British medical staff at Changi soon started to get the hang of it. On Thursday 16 November 1942, Marshall wrote:’At 6.40 I played league against the Australians from Java. We entered a team in the Australian competition. We had a very enjoyable game and won 5 - 3. We understood league better this time.

To hlp the British adapt to the new game, the Australian sent Corporal Harry Fowler over to the British barracks to give a few ‘lectures’ on rugby league in November & December 1942. The lectures were needed. Marshall sescribed how his team mates had not cottoned onto the game at a match on Saturday, 28 November 1942. Marshall recorded that ’at 6.15 we played our first match in the Australian rugby league competition and were beaten by a fitter team 10 – 5. Our forwards will have to learn to be backs as well.’

He was still optimistic about his team’s chances after a defeat on 12 December 1942, in their third game in the Australian competition. Corporal Fowler came over and gave the British team called a ‘pep talk’ the night before the big game, but it didn’t seem to help. Marshall wrote:”After tea we had our weekly rugger league match, again played in a downpour. We lost 3 – 0 this time, another two times we should start to win.’

Marshall’s optimism was eventually proved right but the British medical team needed the help from some Australian doctors, who were more familiar with RL. Although RL is played in Britain Marshall & his fellow British doctors appeared completely unfamiliar with the game until they saw it at Changi. This illustrated the social gulf between the working class of northern England and the public school backgrounds of Marshall and his fellow British doctors, for whom there was just RU.

The enthusiasm of Marshall and hid fellow doctors for RL indicates that sport was a leveller in terms of class distinctions.

Finally, on the Friday, 26 Deember 1942, and with his team assisted by some Australian doctors, Marshall was able to record a win in his Diary:

This afternoon I played RL for a combined hospital team [British & Australian medical staff] against Selarang. It was dam hot playing. We managed to scramble a 3 – 0 victory. Sclarang forwards were superior to ours & we saw little of the ball.

The infusion of Australian medical personnel undoubtedly contributed significantly to the victory. On the previous day Christmas Day 1942, Australian medical staff, playing as Australian General Hospital, had defeated the Australian Selarang Barracks team. Marshall recorded that this time this ‘turned out to be a very scrappy game in which hospital won 3 – 2.’

RL continued to be played until the end of January 1943, when along with Australia Rules it was banned...





 
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