Rating Super League

[nqboy]

That's better EH. Not just juvenile name calling.

It just seems to me that the goodplayers that go over there are near the end of their worklife over here and are looking for one big paycheque to finish with while most of the younger players who go over have not established themselves here so I guess they're after the easy money too.

Fair point, Drew won Dally M Hooker of the Year (I'll take your word for that), and at times he has been outstanding. But he got stuck behind Gower and then Priddis at Penrith and then Woolford at Canberra so he's a fair way down the list if you throw in Buderus, Wing and Smith.

As I said before, when I see the top players heading over there at their peak, I'll certainly concede the point. It just hasn't happened for a long time and doesn't look like happening for a long time. Why? there's shitloads of money on offer and the work's easier than here. I think it's beacuse they want to test themselves against the best, week in, week out.

And I do rate your good players. Fielden, Sculthorpe (fully fit) and Carney are either the best in the world or close to it in their positions. Senior and Gleeson are as good as if not better than our centres (we're not strong in this area at the moment). Morley's made it, Peacock, Farrell, Reardon and probably Maguire would all make it over here.

 

[BrisbaneRhino]

As ever there's a sensible halfway ground on the debate over the quality of Aussies in SL. The fact is that there are some excellent Australian players in SL, a number of makeweights and some out and out duffers. It's always interesting to see how some big name players fail to deliver, whilst relative unknowns kick on. In some cases the unknowns simply thrive when given an opportunity they never got in the NRL.

In the past the journeymen Aussies have had SL careers because they tend to do the basics (as in real basics, particularly defence) better than their English equivalents. Quite simply Australians seem to get better coaching as juniors, and it shows in the way they play. I would hope that
this sort of player was doomed going forward, as clubs see the success of decent junior development.

SL clubs have been far too quick to sign an Aussie/Kiwi to fill a gap in the team. I'd much rather see fewer but better imports in SL. In particular it would be good for the game in England (and GB) to see one or two real top flight halfbacks in SL. The lack of experience of playing with and against those players (Lockyer, Johns, Kimmorley etc) on a regular basis is a big weakness for GB.

 

[Gaz_the_bull]

Vainikolo - we only saw him as a young player over here and he never achieved his potential. Good footwork and kicks behind him always found him out. Also our wingers are not so tackle-shy as some over there, perhaps. It's true he might have really come on since he left, it was hard to tell in one game we saw him.

Hape - another young player who left before he'd achieved anything. He showed a bit in the TS games I saw, couldn't comment without seeing a bit more.

Vainikolo has certainly improved at Bradford he was the laughing stock of super League in 2002 due to his lack of mobility in defence and the fact that he couldn't catch a cold, but Bradford worked hard on improving these aspects of his game and he's been a revelation and 36 tries in a season is an awesome feat regardless of how strong or weak super league is.

I also had my reservations about Hape when he signed but he's grown into a very good centre, although he still needs to improve the consistency of his defence.

 

[terracesider]

In the past the journeymen Aussies have had SL careers because they tend to do the basics (as in real basics, particularly defence) better than their English equivalents. Quite simply Australians seem to get better coaching as juniors, and it shows in the way they play.

It's undoubtedly the case that lately the Aussie coaching system has been far superior to that in England, which has been so bad as to be virtually non-existent. David Waite was supposed to be addressing that problem and I suppose it will be a few years before we see the full impact of the new set-up.

 

[bartman]

If anything there is a higher quality of Aussies (or NRL players) heading to SL for this season, so the old arguments that Aussies in SL are only "past its" or "never weres" is losing its effect, and the competeitions will draw closer together in time.

 

[Charge]

I would have had Craig Smith in the original list at about number 4.

 

[Charge]

That's better EH. Not just juvenile name calling.

It just seems to me that the goodplayers that go over there are near the end of their worklife over here and are looking for one big paycheque to finish with while most of the younger players who go over have not established themselves here so I guess they're after the easy money too.

Fair point, Drew won Dally M Hooker of the Year (I'll take your word for that), and at times he has been outstanding. But he got stuck behind Gower and then Priddis at Penrith and then Woolford at Canberra so he's a fair way down the list if you throw in Buderus, Wing and Smith.

As I said before, when I see the top players heading over there at their peak, I'll certainly concede the point. It just hasn't happened for a long time and doesn't look like happening for a long time. Why? there's shitloads of money on offer and the work's easier than here. I think it's beacuse they want to test themselves against the best, week in, week out.

And I do rate your good players. Fielden, Sculthorpe (fully fit) and Carney are either the best in the world or close to it in their positions. Senior and Gleeson are as good as if not better than our centres (we're not strong in this area at the moment). Morley's made it, Peacock, Farrell, Reardon and probably Maguire would all make it over here.

To be honest, a player shouldn't and doesn't have to have played in Australia to be awarded the Golden Boot. Last year Farrells Opta points score was significantly higher than any other forwards in the league, including Fielden and Sculthorpe. Farrell always ends up at least in the top 5 of his team in every significant RL stat, including meters gained and tackle count (in fact he often tops these two). This is true even for every Tri-Nations match. He is also a great captain and motovater, as anyone will tell you after watching Wigan when he was missing due to injury and comparing this to when he played.

Anyway, he did prove himself in the competition with the best club team in the world - Bradford who were current World Club Champions.

 

[nqboy]

Anyway, he did prove himself in the competition with the best club team in the world - Bradford who were current World Club Champions.

And you were going so well up to this point. Bradford won a one-off pre-season trial at home to a team in foreign conditions without any trials under their belt. But if you want to believe that proves anything other than they were the better side on the day - go for it :roll:

 

[nqboy]

And he proved himself again in the Tri-series final?

 

[Charge]

Anyway, he did prove himself in the competition with the best club team in the world - Bradford who were current World Club Champions.

And you were going so well up to this point. Bradford won a one-off pre-season trial at home to a team in foreign conditions without any trials under their belt. But if you want to believe that proves anything other than they were the better side on the day - go for it :roll:

To be honest I was testing my arm at fishing with that line ;-) But everything else was true.

And yep, he didn't play particulary well in the Tri-Nations final, but he got a serious (as in out for the first 4 months of the Superleague) knee injury in it, so that may be why. Noble should carry most of the blame for that team performance, his choices of team and preportation were very poor for such an important match.

On a slightly different topic I do feel that Australian teams don't put enough importance on the World Club Challenge. It is the only cup to win between two club teams of the opposing hemospheres, both teams know that it is meant to decide the best team in the world, it gets very high crowds (28K tickets sold to date for this years match). This tells me that whoever wins it should get bragging rights as the best team in the world, and if Australian fans don't like that fact then they should tell their teams to try a little harder rather than crying about how it doesn't count. It would be like a British fan saying that GB are truely the best team in the world because after the round-robin section of the Tri-Nations GB were top of the league, and the Aussies only won a one-off match after the main tournament which simply proves they were the better side on the day. :roll:

 

[bartman]

One thing I've noticed since moving from Oz to England is that the trial games start so early over here - boxing day, new years, all through January.

The World Club Challenge will usually be the aussie team's first trial game, as trials down under don't start until February (because of the weather).

It's not an excuse, just an explanation. As a spectacle the match seems to work with ticket sales and coverage, so why change anything?

But the perceived level of effort by the Aussie club won't change so long as it's played at this time of year. (And I don't get offended if the English side wins each year - in fact I now fully expect it.)

 

[Charge]

One thing I've noticed since moving from Oz to England is that the trial games start so early over here - boxing day, new years, all through January.

The World Club Challenge will usually be the aussie team's first trial game, as trials down under don't start until February (because of the weather).

It's not an excuse, just an explanation. As a spectacle the match seems to work with ticket sales and coverage, so why change anything?

But the perceived level of effort by the Aussie club won't change so long as it's played at this time of year. (And I don't get offended if the English side wins each year - in fact I now fully expect it.)

The Superleage season ends a few weeks after the NRL giving the British team far less time to organise themselves for the Tri-Nations tournament. They had no practice games and went straight into a match against Australia who had played PNG, as well as NZ twice. GB also had to play 5 tournament matches in 5 weeks, a much harder schedule than either NZ or Aus had to endure.

However, despite all this, GB fans do not start saying that Aus are not the best in the world because GB had the odds stacked against them, and still came top of the TN table. But Aussie fans never accept that if a British team wins the WCC that they should be considered the best club team in the world because the Aussie team hasn't had enough preporation.

The answer is too bad, you knew what you were getting into, you are representing your team, state, league and country in the only match of the year where it is possible to do so, and if you you loose, then you are not the best, and it is dubious that your league is the best. Excuses don't matter and history will record a loss no matter what.

 

[nqboy]

Some good points raised. The Aussie premiers do take it seriously each year these days, with beer bans and so on, but not so seriously that they organise trials as our weather is too hot. Dunno what the answer is, you probably wouldn't draw the same crowd over here (despite the Broncos/Wigan game getting 50,000+ 10 years ago) though that may be in some doubt as the Poms competitiveness continues to rise. But while it's only played over there at a time before Aussie teams start trials, it will always be only a trial. Fair enough, to the victor the spoils, but it's still only a trial in this format.

Dunno where you'd fit it on the calendar but the old SL WCC where teams flew back and forth for home and away matches was a good format. I reckon the big teams in the UK would be competitive but doubt they would compete over a full season with our best (2 or 3) teams.

 

[Charge]

Some good points raised. The Aussie premiers do take it seriously each year these days, with beer bans and so on, but not so seriously that they organise trials as our weather is too hot. Dunno what the answer is, you probably wouldn't draw the same crowd over here (despite the Broncos/Wigan game getting 50,000+ 10 years ago) though that may be in some doubt as the Poms competitiveness continues to rise. But while it's only played over there at a time before Aussie teams start trials, it will always be only a trial. Fair enough, to the victor the spoils, but it's still only a trial in this format.

Dunno where you'd fit it on the calendar but the old SL WCC where teams flew back and forth for home and away matches was a good format. I reckon the big teams in the UK would be competitive but doubt they would compete over a full season with our best (2 or 3) teams.

Idealy, I'd like to see both seasons shortened to 22 games so that there would be time at the start of both seasons for trial games before the WCC, but that isn't going to happen any time soon over here.

The only way of making the game more even for the Australian team as the competition stands, would be to arrive 2 weeks early and get 2 trial games in against 2 good French sides (say UTC and Tolouse).

I also think that it is only fair to let you know how big the WCC is over here. Throughout the season the team that wins it gets introduced by the Sky commentry team as the World Champions almost every time they are mentioned. The games get bigger crowds each year and are now bigger than the round-robin stages of the Tri-Nations. In fact many (but not all) supporters would rather their club team win this than GB win the Tri-Nations.

Basically, it is a big game, and I have heard many fans who I would not consider hardcore (they don't visit RL websites for example) state that they think the NRL can't be as good as the Superleague cos the Aussie teams rarely win the WCC. Maybe if everyone else over here said that too, Australian teams would make sure they get a trial game or two in France beforehand...

 

[nqboy]

It's great that the WCC is so big over there. I think Penrith tried to arrange a trial against a French team in the lead-up to last year's WCC but were refused as the RFL didn't want the French stealing their thunder (that's how it was reported over here anyway).

Your point about non-hardcore fans disomerkining the NRL onthe strength of WCC results is self-defeating. If they were hardcore fans, they'd recognise the difficulties faced by the Australian teams and wouldn't place so much store in WCC results. But anything that attracts more viewers must be good I guess.

The French trials, maybe, maybe not a good idea. It means 2 more games for the elite players in the Premier side. And I know the arguments that farrell and Fielden have put up in the past about the Poms playing far more games than the aussies so why are we bitching? The answer to that is the intensity is so much greater over here. In any case, there seems general agreement that the ESL and international RL would benefit by the number of games being reduced.

As I say, I am not slagging the elite Poms but the standard falls away pretty sharply after that. I try to watch ESL on Fox over here but it's just so far below the standard of NRL that I get bored. I like the more open style and ball skills but despair of the lack of quality halves, the breaks that are made from a standing start because they haven't run onto the ball and the loose defence that allows these breaks. And the Wakefield/Hull final still got my vote over the AFL GF last season!

 

[bartman]

Some good points raised, Charge, especially about cutting both comps to 22 rounds and playing trial games in France, things that should both become more relaistic in the next year or few?

I wasn't saying that there shouldn't be bragging rights about who wins, but just that I always expect the English side to win it ;-) I know how big the WCC is in England now, and I think it's a great idea for league and am glad there is importance attached to it! And if (when) Leeds beat Canterbury they are entitled to call themselves the world club champions!

They will have shown that they are better than Canterbury, and that they were the best league champions that year. But ultimately it reflects just on the two clubs that take part, and to make an inference comparing whole competitions based on the one game is a debate of logic? No matter who wins the WCC each year, it doesn't really say anything about the comparative strengths of the competitions either of them play in - the other 14 NRL teams and the other 11 ESL teams.

But having said all that, from what I've seen of both teams last year I think Leeds should come out the winners here.

 

[Charge]

You both make some very good points but I suppose the main reason why I feel so strongly about this topic is that I read so many Australian fans and administrators articles slating the WCC as being meaningles that it gets me a little on edge. It is an international fixture featuring the best teams that both leagues have to offer and should be built up and prepared for like a Grand Final.

If there were 2 trial games in France before the WCC, they would not be terribly intensive games, and could include unlimited substitutions from a bench of 6+ players. Thus they would not add much to a player's fatigue that accumulates throughout the season. It is a shame if the RFL tried to block this from happening last year, although are you sure they didn't block them playing another English team? I do rember that happening.

The Superleague is far better now than when it first started out. In 1994 Wigan where in a class of their own. 2 years later they were joined by Bradford and St Helens. After that, Leeds joined them to make what has been known as the big 4 for a number of years. More recently Hull have joined, making the big 5. This year it really looks like Warrington will be trying to make a claim for a spot in the elete section of the league, and the rest of the league is closer than it ever has been before. I am really looking forward to next season.

As for who will win the WCC? I honestly don't know and feel that it could go either way in a great game. That is one of the reaons why I'm looking forward to it and why I feel it doesn't get the recognition it deserves.

 

[bartman]

Charge, I too shudder most times whenever an Aussie league administrator opens his mouth :lol:. My own hometown club's boss Denis Fitzgerald comes up with some corkers...

So I don't blame you for feeling animated about the WCC as a recognised fixture, and passionate about the developments in English League over the last nine years. It's a great competition, and the National Leagues are good value as well.

I love the interest in league up here (especially now since there's no decent round ball team for miles.... ;-) )