Reasons to be optimistic about 2012

[Fingerbang]

Read the first point I made Fingerbang.

Losing Penese for Matthews is fine. Don't have a problem with that at all. At no stage have I said any of our signings are poor. Just try reading sometime.

The whole point of my posts is against those calling our current recruiting poor, as compared to that while Bennett was here. If you are going to argue my point of view....I am going to give my side of it again in reply to your post.

 

[gypsy]

When Bennett was here.
In: Costigan (QLD), Smith (NZ), Boyd (QLD), Gasnier (NSW/Aus), Weyman, Fien (NZ) + a bunch of fringe first graders.

Now.
In: A bunch of fringe first graders.

Can you see the difference?
I'm not bagging our recruiting, as we've had a lot of guys develop from within our club in the last few years.
I'm just showing the massive difference in recruiting, and if you still can't see it, I can't really help any more.

 

[Fingerbang]

The difference I see is the money we still have to spend....especially if Moltzen doesn't come. You reckon we would have been in a position to sign a Cronk or a Dugan or the like in the last 3 years?

And the signing of Gasnier cost us 2 of those others you mentioned.

 

[gypsy]

No we wouldn't have been, as we had a Boyd and Gasnier. I'm struggling to see your point.....its like saying, "yep we lost Andrew Johns, but look at all this money we have to spend on a 7." It's hardly something to be proud about.

I was merely comparing the recruiting in the past to now. I can't make it any more simple.

 

[grouch]

The problem is, gypsy, that you're taking an overly simplistic view. When you over simplify it and leave out the extenuating details as you have, it's easy to paint whatever picture you aim to portray. You breezed over the fact that players have developed within the club - Morris, Nightingale, Scott, Soward, Creagh, Young have all become Origin/Test players - Hunt and Prior played for Country. This has a direct and significant effect on the ability to recruit more internationals and rep players - due to the subsequent increase in pay and bonuses etc.

Hence, rather than signing these types, we have looked for players at an earlier stage of development.

What has happened is no accident - it is by the NRL's design. It is a fact of life in this competition, unless you are cheating.

What we are arguing is, that the Dragons ahve done well, all things considered. The signings have been astute

 

[Fingerbang]

My point is.....to those writing off our recruitment post Bennett.....it hasn't finished yet.

 

[Fingerbang]

The problem is, gypsy, that you're taking an overly simplistic view. When you over simplify it and leave out the extenuating details as you have, it's easy to paint whatever picture you aim to portray. You breezed over the fact that players have developed within the club - Morris, Nightingale, Scott, Soward, Creagh, Young have all become Origin/Test players - Hunt and Prior played for Country. This has a direct and significant effect on the ability to recruit more internationals and rep players - due to the subsequent increase in pay and bonuses etc.

Hence, rather than signing these types, we have looked for players at an earlier stage of development.

What has happened is no accident - it is by the NRL's design. It is a fact of life in this competition, unless you are cheating.

What we are arguing is, that the Dragons ahve done well, all things considered. The signings have been astute

Thank you Grouch.....exactly right. When your team becomes one full of so many rep players, you can't go out and sign another Darius Boyd to replace the one leaving.

 

[gypsy]

You breezed over the fact that players have developed within the club

Um, no that'd be right about where I said

"I'm not bagging our recruiting, as we've had a lot of guys develop from within our club in the last few years."

scroll up, have a read.

Again, I am not bagging our recruiting as I'm all too aware of the players that have developed internally. I was merely comparing.

 

[grouch]

Comparison is the root of all unhappiness

 

[Cagey Mac]

Comparison is the root of all unhappiness

To search for perfection is all very well
But to look for Heaven is to live here in Hell

 

[Slippery Morris]

I am looking forward to next season to see what Steven Price brings to the table. I think Saints will be a much more attacking side and I am really looking forward to that. In terms of players Saints have an awesome squad and should be in the top 8 if they majority stay fit. You can expect the odd injury here ad there. If the Stanley brothers stay fit the Saints will go extremely well. They are key to the attack. I hope Kyle plays in the halves.

 

[Mr Red]

The problem is, gypsy, that you're taking an overly simplistic view. When you over simplify it and leave out the extenuating details as you have, it's easy to paint whatever picture you aim to portray. You breezed over the fact that players have developed within the club - Morris, Nightingale, Scott, Soward, Creagh, Young have all become Origin/Test players - Hunt and Prior played for Country. This has a direct and significant effect on the ability to recruit more internationals and rep players - due to the subsequent increase in pay and bonuses etc.

Hence, rather than signing these types, we have looked for players at an earlier stage of development.

What has happened is no accident - it is by the NRL's design. It is a fact of life in this competition, unless you are cheating.

What we are arguing is, that the Dragons ahve done well, all things considered. The signings have been astute

the problem with your theory is the players you have mentioned that needed contract upgrades have ALREADY been taken care of in their previous or current contract - none of them would have been given another upgrade which would impact signings for 2012.

it is quite simple in most parts...
1. we have a salary cap
2. we have someone who is hired and can budget and plan ahead in terms of managing the cap and player salaries
3. we lose players on top dollar (Boyd)
4. we lose a player on a back-ended contract (Gasnier) therefore in theory the 2 MOST EXPENSIVE years on gasniers contract (which would have already been planned and budgeted for IRRESPECTIVE of other contract upgrades) have now become available to spend on another top class player

5. we dont sign any top line players.

yes... i agree that we need to have a blend of rep players, juniors, and fringe first graders with potential.... thats a no brainer.... however i just feel our recruitment for 2012 is not balanced correctly... we have signed too many "fringe players" and are lacking 1 big name signing to offset the loss of Boyd and Gasnier....

 

[grouch]

the problem with your theory is the players you have mentioned that needed contract upgrades have ALREADY been taken care of in their previous or current contract - none of them would have been given another upgrade which would impact signings for 2012.

Rep bonus clause. Just about every player has one. They all must be included in the cap

 

[gypsy]

Rep bonus clause. Just about every player has one. They all must be included in the cap

Again, you're missing the point Mr Red is making.
Gasnier and Boyd both had contracts for 2012, but chose to leave in 2011.
It was already sorted.

 

[Mr Red]

Rep bonus clause. Just about every player has one. They all must be included in the cap

once again as i said - planned and budgeted management of the salary cap prior to the season starting..

all clubs put aside a portion of the cap for incentives, such as rep bonuses, players playing a certain amount of first grade games etc etc..

yes it is an estimate however... when forecasting these amounts they may only be 80% accurate (and thus the problem we had when getting fined for breaching the cap due to incentives revolving around first grade match appearances with some of the younger players). IT STILL HAPPENS THOUGH

HOWEVER - they are still budgeted and forecasted, its not like we wake up just before the season starts and we say "we cant use the 400k a season we have for the next 2 years since gasnier left because we mis-judged our incentives"

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

 

[Fingerbang]

Again, you're missing the point Mr Red is making.
Gasnier and Boyd both had contracts for 2012, but chose to leave in 2011.
It was already sorted.

And we signed Moltzen to help fill that gap. True, not a superstar signing, but the best of what was on offer. If that Moltzen fiasco never happened, who else could we have made a play for to cover fullback / centre? Joel Reddy? Then we would have whinged about the poor signings for 2012....oh, hang on. As it is now, we have a shot at a Dugan or the like. Much better than Reddy or McKinnon, even better than Moltzen.

 

[gypsy]

Haha not sure what else you can try Mr Red, maybe whip up a pie chart or something?

 

[Mr Red]

Haha not sure what else you can try Mr Red, maybe whip up a pie chart or something?

i think using crayons with stick figure drawings may be more appropriate...;-)

 

[Fingerbang]

i think using crayons with stick figure drawings may be more appropriate...;-)

If they is what they teach you in kinder....go for it. Hate to see you out of your depth, mr Red.

 

[Fingerbang]

I guess Manly 2011 really showed everyone how a team struggles by not making any big name signings for the year.....oh, hang on....