Reclaiming 'Rugby'

[taipan]

Taipan,

Well, you seem to be listening. Can you hear the sound of the Wamberal surf?

Do you seriously, really, truly, believe that more people believe that the 13 a-side game is "rugby"?

Really? Truly? Seriously?

Incidentally, if that is the case, what is all the fuss about league gaining entry to the GAISF? Rugby is already there. So if your assertion is correct, your game is already in. But, it's not. Apparently a slight flaw in your logic.

China enters a team in the Hong Kong Sevens every year, and they entered a team in the Asian under 19 regional play-offs, leading up to the World Under 19 championship under way now. That's "world". Not "Australian".

No I am actually diving into the Cronulla surf.I dont listen fom my window:lol:
What I truly ,really and seriously believe ,that Woods you perpetuate the union hype,that officials and writers throw up on a regular basis about your code.
I really and truly believe their are many people out there in Oz who called both codes of rugby -rugby in the Southern states,I really and truly believe that in the UK there are many people including soccer buffs who call both codes of rugby -rugby.
Read what I stated before,and not what you think i said.I said I dont care whether the games are called rugby union ,or union, or rugby league or league on occasions.
The application to the GAISF is on the basis of the game,being rugby league,not league as you have been repeatedly told -shake your head .
If rugby league had the money to waste,they may not be unsuccessful in challenging the name of the sole use name rugby as applied to union.
The precendent as to the usage of the name rugby as part of rugby league ,has already been won in a France.Much to the chagrin of union officialdom in that country.

China enters a team OK : now as Russia enters a team in the junior rugby league championships in Moscow or the Welsh junior rugby league teams,its hardly an Australian only game based on your logic.I await the Indian union sides with interest,or the Pakistani ones

World !!!my dear ole chappy is all encompassing if there are 240 nations in the world and union apparently is played in 100 plus and calls itself international and world wide,then damn it if rugby league is played in now 24 countries with 40 odd affiliates with no domestic comp,can do the same.
Thank you linesmen thank you ball boys.

 

[taipan]

Taipan,

Well, you seem to be listening. Can you hear the sound of the Wamberal surf?

Do you seriously, really, truly, believe that more people believe that the 13 a-side game is "rugby"?

Really? Truly? Seriously?

Incidentally, if that is the case, what is all the fuss about league gaining entry to the GAISF? Rugby is already there. So if your assertion is correct, your game is already in. But, it's not. Apparently a slight flaw in your logic.

China enters a team in the Hong Kong Sevens every year, and they entered a team in the Asian under 19 regional play-offs, leading up to the World Under 19 championship under way now. That's "world". Not "Australian".

The scores for the schoolboys union coming through in the last few days were interesting.The Aussies beat Scotland 78-3 and Romania 90plus
is this all part of the global domination of the game?. Please Woods the hype has been a tad heavy lately.

 

[bobbis]

Where does League follow Rugby in RFL or ARL?

The RWC is actually the IRB RWC - just as the soccer world cup is the FIFA World Cup.

When the Northern teams split they didn't split from the game but from the governing body - they continued to play rugby and still do. Neither RU nor RL is the same these days as the game played in 1895. Union might have more similarities but it just evolved more slowly.

You're right league doesn't directly follow rugby in RFL, surely the RFL should change its name.

IRB RWC or RWC niether of those titles have union in them. Union is merely a word for a sporting organisation, hence its not found in many national rugby organisations titles. The vast majority of rugby fans don't refer to their sport officially or unofficially as RU.

Yes when the northern clubs first split they continued to play rugby, however when they began to alter the rules they in affect created a new sport.

What relevance is the fact that rugby isnt played the same as 1895, RL isnt the same as 1920 or even 1980 its still RL though isn't it.

in 1895 rugby was played with 15 players, rucks, mauls, scrums and lineouts. In 2006 rugby is played with 15 men, rucks, mauls, scrums and lineouts, while RL is played with 13 players, and play the balls. All the major pre 1895 rugby bodies have continued in rugby.

If RL suffers due to the use of the word rugby surely the onus is on RL to change. league and union are very generic words its no suprise many people struggle to differntiate them, especially given union in many cases isnt used, while many rugby competitions are called rugby leagues.

Are you saying Paley rugby died in 1895 to give birth to 2 new sports?

 

[Kingbunny]

No sport should have to it name, you're talking sh*t, which is typical of a union follower.

If the IRB website states that it is the governing body of rugby union, then the sports name is rugby union. How can you argue against that statement. You can't, then again an ignorant person would.

Also, both codes of rugby came from a source well before the IRB was formed, so why should the irb and the game of union has exclusive rights to the term rugby? It shouldn't, it belongs to all the clubs and competitions that were created from this original point in time and then after, regardless of code.

Case in naming sports that came from rugby. Should touch rugby be called touch rugby? Should tag rugby be called tag rugby? According to your ideals they shouldn't be because they came from the game of rugby league. Should they be touch league and tag league ???

Just a quick one on your 1895 comment. No form of rugby is the same as was first played. This goes for both codes and at this point in time they were both called rugby unions.

 

[Te Kaha]

If the IRB website states that it is the governing body of rugby union, then the sports name is rugby union. How can you argue against that statement. You can't, then again an ignorant person would.

Your entire argument that the game is called union is based on one line on the IRB website? and you are calling others ignorant? ignoring the fact on that same page the game is refered to as simply Rugby in 3 other places, you should have checked the IRB By-Laws... the laws for which the IRB is bound...

under law 1.1 Definitions.."Game means Rugby Football played in accordance with the Laws of the Game"... Therefore YOU are WRONG.. The IRB calls the Game Rugby Football not Rugby Union... Therefore the correct name for the Game is Rugby not Rugby Union.

 

[Kingbunny]

Your entire argument that the game is called union is based on one line on the IRB website? and you are calling others ignorant?

I'm not wrong. I called the game rugby union as per the irb website. If you don't like that, tough luck. Ignorance, yes. Maybe arrogance would be a better word to use. I don't care what the rules say, one line one on the sports governing body website is enough to say it all.

http://www.irb.com/About/

the IRB is the world governing and Law making body for the game of Rugby Union

Now how can anybody argue with that. Nobody can.

This is an admission that the sports name is called rugby union, regardless of what any thing else on the website lists. Maybe you should email them and ask them to change this line.

 

[Te Kaha]

I'm not wrong. I called the game rugby union as per the irb website. If you don't like that, tough luck. Ignorance, yes. Maybe arrogance would be a better word to use. I don't care what the rules say, one line one on the sports governing body website is enough to say it all.

http://www.irb.com/About/

Now how can anybody argue with that. Nobody can.

This is an admission that the sports name is called rugby union, regardless of what any thing else on the website lists. Maybe you should email them and ask them to change this line.

ahhhh the old i dont like it so i will ignore it argument....

on one place on the website it states Rugby Union.. in the context of the common usage...

The laws, the rules by which the IRB, the countries, and the game itself are governed call the game Rugby Football... That is the name the code identifies itself as. NOT one line on their website... You may not like it, but that is the way it is.

 

[bobbis]

Kingbunny
"No sport should have to it name, you're talking sh*t, which is typical of a union follower."

Makes no sense.

"If the IRB website states that it is the governing body of rugby union, then the sports name is rugby union. How can you argue against that statement. You can't, then again an ignorant person would."

Yet in the official title it doesn't call itself rugby union. How can it be rugby union if the authoritive international organsiation, rule maker and regulator doesn't have rugby union in its name. How can it be named rugby union if in affect it isn't.

"Also, both codes of rugby came from a source well before the IRB was formed, so why should the irb and the game of union has exclusive rights to the term rugby? It shouldn't, it belongs to all the clubs and competitions that were created from this original point in time and then after, regardless of code."

No not at all, the IRB was formed before well before rugby league ever existed. Theres direct and undebatable continuation of organisations in rugby from well before 1895 to the present. 21 English clubs leaving did not kill rugby in 1895 infact it had no effect at all for at least a decade on the rest of the then rugby world such as Ireland, France, Wales, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Scoland, Australia, NZ, and Argentina.

So your saying that because 21 clubs in England broke away the vast majority of rugby supporters should refer to their sport as rugby union despite direct continuation and not a single difference pre 1895 to 1896.

Why should the IRB be allowed to use rugby with no union attached? Simple it was formed before rugby league. However I've no problem with the use of the name 'rugby league', I do have a problem with rugby league fans saying rugby should have union attached to the end.

'Case in naming sports that came from rugby. Should touch rugby be called touch rugby? Should tag rugby be called tag rugby? According to your ideals they shouldn't be because they came from the game of rugby league. Should they be touch league and tag league ???"

They can call themselves touch league, touch rugby, touch rugby league or anything they want really. So long as they choose a name not already taken and don't insist other sports change their name to accomidate them.

"Just a quick one on your 1895 comment. No form of rugby is the same as was first played. This goes for both codes and at this point in time they were both called rugby unions."

of course they're not the same, RL isnt the same as it was in the 20s or 50s or even 80s not is rugby the same as it once was, however it would be stupid and ignorant to say merely because it isnt exactly played the same as it once was that it isnt the same sport. Yes originally rugby league was the Northern Rugby Union, however when it changes the rules not in accordance with the appropriate governing bodies of rugby it in affect ceased to be rugby and was a new sport.


"I'm not wrong. I called the game rugby union as per the irb website. If you don't like that, tough luck. Ignorance, yes. Maybe arrogance would be a better word to use. I don't care what the rules say, one line one on the sports governing body website is enough to say it all.

http://www.irb.com/About/

Now how can anybody argue with that. Nobody can.

This is an admission that the sports name is called rugby union, regardless of what any thing else on the website lists. Maybe you should email them and ask them to change this line."

The About section states this to dispell any confusion in relation to rugby league, it also states this in the rules section, its simply in the context of common usage to avoid confusion. Read the site more thouroughly and you'll realise 'rugby union' is very rarely used. Its not used once in the 20 page IRB charter on the game. Its not in the title of the organisation nor is it in any of the events its organises, such as the RWC. While 'rugby union' is mentioned a mere handful of times in the 176 page English version of the rules, it isn't mentioned in the Spanish or French versions.

So you figure it out, its the same organisation as it was pre 1895, it hasnt changed names and it still governs the same sport as it did then. It doesn't have Union in the IRBs name, if it doesn't have union in its name and it was formed well before such a phrase was used then how can it be rugby union. If the 176 page official rules in Spanish doesn't mention 'rugby union', 176 page official rules in French doesn't mention 'rugby union' while the 176 page English version mentions 'rugby union' a mere handful of times in 176 pages what do you think the official name of the sport is?

 

[Woods99]

This is really a totally meaningless debate. All the media that reports on the two codes in Australia call the 15 a-side game "rugby". David Gallup, the boss of the NRL, calls the game "rugby".

Find a new name for your game, guys. The rugby name is well and truly taken. You can cry, stamp your little feet, throw your dummies, but facts are facts.

Rugby is the name by which rugby is known, by far the majority of sports fans who recognise the word associate it with the original game. And why wouldn't they?

Perhaps baseball should be complaining that their game is not called cricket.

 

[Paley]

Yes when the northern clubs first split they continued to play rugby, however when they began to alter the rules they in affect created a new sport.

Are you seriously suggesting that everytime rules are altered a new sport is created?

If RL suffers due to the use of the word rugby surely the onus is on RL to change

Nope, the onus is on the IRB etc to behave honourably - although its something which has eluded them for 111 years.

The fact is there are 2 rugbys - union and league and to suggest otherwise is to sink to the level of the IRB and the national unions and anybody with any dignity would be well advised to avoid that path.

 

[Te Kaha]

Nope, the onus is on the IRB etc to behave honourably - although its something which has eluded them for 111 years.

That quite frankly is bullsh*t... The onus on the IRB is to run their game... A game called Rugby... RL can still call itself Rugby nobody can stop them.. But Rugby has always been and is rightly called Rugby.

The fact is there are 2 rugbys - union and league and to suggest otherwise is to sink to the level of the IRB and the national unions and anybody with any dignity would be well advised to avoid that path.

Damn right there are two rugbys.. and both of them can call themsleves rugby... and fans from both codes do.. areyou calling them all wrong?

You are the one who has the problem with the various Unions calling their game Rugby, its not up to the IRB to differniate the codes at all... if League followers dont want the games confused its up to them.

 

[Paley]

This is really a totally meaningless debate. All the media that reports on the two codes in Australia call the 15 a-side game "rugby". David Gallup, the boss of the NRL, calls the game "rugby".

Find a new name for your game, guys. The rugby name is well and truly taken. You can cry, stamp your little feet, throw your dummies, but facts are facts.

Rugby is the name by which rugby is known, by far the majority of sports fans who recognise the word associate it with the original game. And why wouldn't they?

Perhaps baseball should be complaining that their game is not called cricket.

David Gallop needs to understand he is the boss of the NRL not the NLL.

Anyway, arguing the toss with unionites on a messageboard is a rather pointless activity - they have shown time and again that they are in favour of the dishonourable way union has conducted itself over the years.

Rugby League should reclaim the word "rugby" if for no other reason than to prevent the word being sullied even further by the current self-appointed custodians

 

[Paley]

You are the one who has the problem with the various Unions calling their game Rugby, its not up to the IRB to differniate the codes at all... if League followers dont want the games confused its up to them.

Unfortunately for you the IRB chose not to differentiate the sports at all other than they claimed one was amateur and one was professional. Nobody was banned from union for playing a different sport called "Rugby league" they were banned because they played the same sport but as a professional or the same sport as an amateur but under a governing body which also oversaw professional rugby.

So now that union has decided openly paying players is ok they seem to have decided that only they are "rugby".

Maybe if the union governing bodies had behaved with more dignity and honour over the years the argument wouldn't be worth bothering with

Still, I can see that the unionites on here are happy with the lack of dignified and honourable behaviour of their code over the years so its not really worthwhile arguing with them - just point out the facts and let them bluster and whinge.

 

[Te Kaha]

Unfortunately for you the IRB chose not to differentiate the sports at all other than they claimed one was amateur and one was professional. Nobody was banned from union for playing a different sport called "Rugby league" they were banned because they played the same sport but as a professional or the same sport as an amateur but under a governing body which also oversaw professional rugby.

So now that union has decided openly paying players is ok they seem to have decided that only they are "rugby".

Maybe if the union governing bodies had behaved with more dignity and honour over the years the argument wouldn't be worth bothering with

Still, I can see that the unionites on here are happy with the lack of dignified and honourable behaviour of their code over the years so its not really worthwhile arguing with them - just point out the facts and let them bluster and whinge.

ITS NOT UP TO THE IRB TO DIFFERNTIATE BETWEEN THE CODES... RL is the breakaway code.. its up to their leadership to do it IF they want to. they can call themsleves Rugby to if they want as well nobody is stoping them.

 

[bobbis]

Are you seriously suggesting that everytime rules are altered a new sport is created?



Nope, the onus is on the IRB etc to behave honourably - although its something which has eluded them for 111 years.

The fact is there are 2 rugbys - union and league and to suggest otherwise is to sink to the level of the IRB and the national unions and anybody with any dignity would be well advised to avoid that path.

No im not, in fact if you read a bit more of my post thatd be quite obvious, im saying that if you alter the rules without consulting the official bodies which regulate them you are creating a new sport. By not playing under the official rules of the sport you've in affect created a new sport. Are you arguing a new sport wasn't created?

The rest of your post is prity pathetic. I can't see at all how a sport calling itself by the name it has for well over a century and predating RL is dishonourable.

Theres rugby and theres rugby league, as ive proven beyond any doubt the game the IRB represents is officially rugby, to argue otherwise is stupid and ignorant.

You've failed to actually come up with any proof the official name of the sport is rugby union and not rugby, in fact you've dodged every single point to that effect.

Good luck with your crusade though to get rugby to change its name so that its honourable in your eyes.

 

[Kingbunny]

ahhhh the old i dont like it so i will ignore it argument....

on one place on the website it states Rugby Union.. in the context of the common usage...

The laws, the rules by which the IRB, the countries, and the game itself are governed call the game Rugby Football... That is the name the code identifies itself as. NOT one line on their website... You may not like it, but that is the way it is.

I would say it's a lack of acceptance on behalf of union followers who cannot accept that their sport is called rugby union, which is as per the irb website.

As I said, send them an email. Complain to them.

I'm happy with calling Union, Rugby Union. If you're not, I don't care. After all this is a Rugby League forum and that why I post here.

 

[Kingbunny]

You've failed to actually come up with any proof the official name of the sport is rugby union and not rugby, in fact you've dodged every single point to that effect.

Can't read, the proof has already been posted twice on this thread. Try again or should help you.

 

[Kingbunny]

Kingbunny
"No sport should have to it name, you're talking sh*t, which is typical of a union follower."

Makes no sense.

"If the IRB website states that it is the governing body of rugby union, then the sports name is rugby union. How can you argue against that statement. You can't, then again an ignorant person would."

Yet in the official title it doesn't call itself rugby union. How can it be rugby union if the authoritive international organsiation, rule maker and regulator doesn't have rugby union in its name. How can it be named rugby union if in affect it isn't.

"Also, both codes of rugby came from a source well before the IRB was formed, so why should the irb and the game of union has exclusive rights to the term rugby? It shouldn't, it belongs to all the clubs and competitions that were created from this original point in time and then after, regardless of code."

No not at all, the IRB was formed before well before rugby league ever existed. Theres direct and undebatable continuation of organisations in rugby from well before 1895 to the present. 21 English clubs leaving did not kill rugby in 1895 infact it had no effect at all for at least a decade on the rest of the then rugby world such as Ireland, France, Wales, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Scoland, Australia, NZ, and Argentina.

So your saying that because 21 clubs in England broke away the vast majority of rugby supporters should refer to their sport as rugby union despite direct continuation and not a single difference pre 1895 to 1896.

Why should the IRB be allowed to use rugby with no union attached? Simple it was formed before rugby league. However I've no problem with the use of the name 'rugby league', I do have a problem with rugby league fans saying rugby should have union attached to the end.

'Case in naming sports that came from rugby. Should touch rugby be called touch rugby? Should tag rugby be called tag rugby? According to your ideals they shouldn't be because they came from the game of rugby league. Should they be touch league and tag league ???"

They can call themselves touch league, touch rugby, touch rugby league or anything they want really. So long as they choose a name not already taken and don't insist other sports change their name to accomidate them.

"Just a quick one on your 1895 comment. No form of rugby is the same as was first played. This goes for both codes and at this point in time they were both called rugby unions."

of course they're not the same, RL isnt the same as it was in the 20s or 50s or even 80s not is rugby the same as it once was, however it would be stupid and ignorant to say merely because it isnt exactly played the same as it once was that it isnt the same sport. Yes originally rugby league was the Northern Rugby Union, however when it changes the rules not in accordance with the appropriate governing bodies of rugby it in affect ceased to be rugby and was a new sport.


"I'm not wrong. I called the game rugby union as per the irb website. If you don't like that, tough luck. Ignorance, yes. Maybe arrogance would be a better word to use. I don't care what the rules say, one line one on the sports governing body website is enough to say it all.

http://www.irb.com/About/

Now how can anybody argue with that. Nobody can.

This is an admission that the sports name is called rugby union, regardless of what any thing else on the website lists. Maybe you should email them and ask them to change this line."

The About section states this to dispell any confusion in relation to rugby league, it also states this in the rules section, its simply in the context of common usage to avoid confusion. Read the site more thouroughly and you'll realise 'rugby union' is very rarely used. Its not used once in the 20 page IRB charter on the game. Its not in the title of the organisation nor is it in any of the events its organises, such as the RWC. While 'rugby union' is mentioned a mere handful of times in the 176 page English version of the rules, it isn't mentioned in the Spanish or French versions.

So you figure it out, its the same organisation as it was pre 1895, it hasnt changed names and it still governs the same sport as it did then. It doesn't have Union in the IRBs name, if it doesn't have union in its name and it was formed well before such a phrase was used then how can it be rugby union. If the 176 page official rules in Spanish doesn't mention 'rugby union', 176 page official rules in French doesn't mention 'rugby union' while the 176 page English version mentions 'rugby union' a mere handful of times in 176 pages what do you think the official name of the sport is?

What dribble.

So, what is the offical name of the RFU, NZRFU, ARU, SRU, WRU so on and so on ? What does the U stand for again ? I don't remember.

Maybe you should figure that one out.

 

[Te Kaha]

I would say it's a lack of acceptance on behalf of union followers who cannot accept that their sport is called rugby union, which is as per the irb website.

What a load of crap... the IRB calls the Game Rugby Football... no amount of craping on about one line on a website will change that the legal document that the IRB adheers to is a better indication of the name of the game then a website page... or do you just believe everything you read on a website? instead of a legal document?

As I said, send them an email. Complain to them.

Why you are wrong not them

I'm happy with calling Union, Rugby Union. If you're not, I don't care. After all this is a Rugby League forum and that why I post here.

and what you call it means less than nothing.. the same as what i call it... its what the restof the world calls it that counts... and guess what name that is... yep Rugby.

 

[Te Kaha]

Can't read, the proof has already been posted twice on this thread. Try again or should help you.

Proof? glad you arent a lawyer...