What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Scrums - the dinosaur of Rugby evolution.

gUt

Coach
Messages
16,916
I've had some people run a few tests on it, and they've reached a conclusion.

Thanks for playing, but no dice this time ;-)

That's nice, I'll put it up on the fridge later. Now go play with the worms in the garden and let the grown-ups talk.
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
Scrums will never again be what they were designed to be due to John Farraghers misfortune in 1978 http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/players/john-farragher/summary.html

I did get his name wrong in my original post.

But that's it. No longer will they put a hooker in such a position.

What we have is the best they will ever be. So saying "They should make them like they used to" is like saying we should all go and live in a cave.

To me the scrum gives players,referees and spectators all a chance to catch our breath and reset the mind for the following play. I think we need more than just a turnover/play the ball. Sadly, modern sport has two viable equivalents, and if League adopted either of them there would be a slanging match that would last for years. One is the Lineout from Union (although without the pansy "lifting" rule). It is a genuine contest, but the drawback is that it must happen in a fixed position in relation to the sideline. In itself, it is a stupid Victorian era version of the simple throw in from soccer. The other is the AFL bounce - although any restart by the referee has the potential for cries of bias. It also isnt knock-on proof.

Any restart has to have the following things:
It has to provide a small break in play.
It has to be easily policed.
Ideally, it should involve he forwards and the halfback.

It SHOULD be a contest for posession, but currently scrums are not. Therefore, making a contest for posession itself would dramatically alter the game. If it was possible to regain the ball after a knck on, would we see more risks in attack? Would we see less defensive moves designed to dislodge the ball? Would it give advantage to stronger sides and disadvantage weaker ones like the old days when rich clubs bought the best hookers?

Maybe the turnover is the best option after all. But of the above options, I'd favour the lineout.
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the scrum.

johnfarragher_wideweb__470x367,2.jpg


And get that stupid f*cking twinkie avatar fixed!!!!!
 

gypsy

Bench
Messages
4,248
And get that stupid f*cking twinkie avatar fixed!!!!!

He was talking about the current scrum I believe, not the scrum from 30 years ago. Players don't exactly "engage' like a Union scrum, the just take it nice and easy. You'd be hard pressed getting injured in a scrum now.
 

WAPAU

Juniors
Messages
189

Whilst it is a horrible injury, you could say the same thing about all the brain injuries that occur later in players lives as a result of collisions. Rugby League is a contact sport there are risks involved when you play.

On the topic of first phase backline moves - they will not occur unless there is a contest for possession at the breakdown. The contest is what sucks the opposition in, thus creating space for the backs.
 

Lambretta

First Grade
Messages
8,689
QUOTE=Loudstrat;7938307]
And get that stupid f*cking twinkie avatar fixed!!!!![/QUOTE]

Hear hear old chap

couldn't believe what I was seeing on a Rugby League forum


Anyway, to answer your question Loudy - if the scrums ARE designed to take the forwards out of play I think we need to look at ways of making this actually happen more efficiently.

A scrum is awarded because of an error, so making it a contest for the ball shouldnt be a part of it. Possession is a reward for playing for the team that didnt just f**k it all up.

However as others have pointed out no one contests the scrum as they want to get back into the defensive line quickly and the backs dont take risks as they want to complete their sets.

Well, how about if the scrum is being contested inside the half of the attacking team (ie closer to your own try line than the one you are attacking), the forwards are forced to stay bound in the scrum until the first tackle is completed?

This would create the space that the scrum is designed to create and it would provide oppotunities to turn scrums in your own half into large metre gains and as there are two refs one could officiate to ensure they stay locked in and the players can only break upon his order. Breaking early results in auto 5 minute sin bin.

With fewer players in open play on the first tackle teams would be more willing to try different things (as Wests Tigers do)

Also if you make 30 yards on the first play the ball, the big lumbering forwards will have much further to run to get back onside before the 2nd tackle etc. This could in effect create two or three plays where it's backs on backs.
 
Last edited:

LineBall

Juniors
Messages
1,719
How about this option as an alternative?

Instead of the scrum, have a play the ball, except both sets of forwards must be back 30m from the point of the play the ball. They must stay there for two tackles and cannot advance until the second tackle is completed. They can become involved in the play if the opposition team reaches them on the field.

This would achieve several things:

1 Both sets of forwards are removed from the play, allowing the backs to compete against each other with much more space. And this contest is guaranteed,for two tackles.

2. It still keeps a break in play, as it will take time for both sets of forwards to retreat, and the attacking team could have a huddle on field to discuss what plays they want to run for the next two tackles. It creates a stoppage that advertisers can use, and also stops the game becoming too much like touch footy.
 

innsaneink

Referee
Messages
29,365
The players arent machines.....I believe they do need breathers.
Take away their rest stops and you'll get sloppier footy, more mistakes...

What does shit me is scrums won against the feed are 99.999% of the time are called back
 

Teddyboy

First Grade
Messages
6,573
Remember one Union fan saying scrums are the heart of Rugby.Can not stand them as they are a pain in the neck(really)to play or to watch.
 

JB

Juniors
Messages
863
A positive bi-product of scrums should be that it create's 1 on 1 situations for backs, and it's more of these personal challenges the game should be after imo. However, through weak refereeing which allow half the opposition forward pack to be on the first receiver the same time as he gets the ball, attacking teams just do the one out hit up to set up for the next phase.

2 changes i'd make. Have scrums set 5 metres from the sideline thus allowing the full width of the field for backs to have a go (or even throw in some tricky set plays). Forwards having to stay packed in the scrum until the 1st receiver gets the ball (if the halfback decides to run then it's a different story).
Bronco's early 90s the great example for how effective and exciting attacking from the scrum could be. Langer to Walters, miss pass to Renouf already on the outside of his man - swerve, fend, gone! Length of the field stuff.
 

Lewis

Juniors
Messages
36
Nothing wrong with the scrum. Simple fix to make it a contest again is to enforce the halfback to roll the ball into the middle. (loose head/feed etc etc)

Using rugby union or AFL concepts is a shit idea.
 

Haffa

Guest
Messages
16,183
Nothing wrong with the scrum. Simple fix to make it a contest again is to enforce the halfback to roll the ball into the middle. (loose head/feed etc etc)

Using rugby union or AFL concepts is a shit idea.

So you're suggesting Rugby League should never adopt a rugby idea they should instead just go back to contested scrums (originally taken from a rugby idea)?
 

Teddyboy

First Grade
Messages
6,573
Nothing wrong with the scrum. Simple fix to make it a contest again is to enforce the halfback to roll the ball into the middle. (loose head/feed etc etc)

Using rugby union or AFL concepts is a shit idea.

Thats your problem my sad view for u aussies that u play Soccer,aCricket,Basketball an egg chasing game that is a mix of League,Union and AFL.

Iam sorry.:?
God the £££££$$$$ if you had a code like NFL and a proper Rugby or a proper Football code.
Saying that go to Canada they got the NHL but like NFL yet come summer the CFL.
 
Last edited:

Pierced Soul

First Grade
Messages
9,202
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the scrum.

There's everything wrong with no teams willingness to use it.

" No one pushes in the scrum" That's because the defending pack try to break out as quickly as possible to get back the 10 metres for the next play-the-ball.

" They just take a hit-up. " That's because so much emphasis is put on completing sets, no one is willingly to try anything fancy in the chance they'd lose the ball; most scrums are taken by the attacking team inside their own half.

no one pushes in scrums anymore cos the refs are always yelling "don't push"
and penalsie teams for pushing.

maybe what needs to happen is that the designated hooker (and yes i know its hard these days with players covering different positions) has to pack at hooker, props pack in the front row etc.

what this will do is stop the second rower standing at 5/8 and taking the first hitup. it'll also stop the hooker standing at lock and throwing the first pass off the back of the scrum. if the attacking team wants to take the hitup thats fine but it wont be a forward doing it. liekwise the defending team wont have forwards in the backline to make tackles staright away.

I would allow pushing as well, if the team who doesnt have the feed can push and gain posession it'll force the attacking team to stay bound so they don't lose the ball. there's no incentive for the attacking team to push currently cos they know the defending team isnt allowed to push.
 

Butters

Bench
Messages
3,899
Simple solution:

Penalise halfbacks for not feeding the ball straight in the middle.
Penalise teams for illegal scrummaging (i.e. not pushing, breaking early etc.)

There, league scrums are now fixed.
 

coolumsharkie

Referee
Messages
26,913
To me, the great elephant in the Rugby League room are scrums. They are more obsolete than column shift, typewriter ribbons, or Souths grand final T shirts. The trouble is that no one knows what to do to replace them.

I believe that they are replaceable. They are certainly never to be restored to their former glory - arguably no single act in RL determined the course of a game, either through the old hooker's sucess rate (remember when that was an important stat - someone hooking at 54% was hot property in the off season contract negs). The watering down of the rules into the modern pantomine was largely due to a horrible collapse that left Penrith's John Farrugia in a wheelchair - and from that point we couldnt go back. However, a sudden side benefit was the sudden loss of a myriad of penalties, the incorrect feed, feet across the tunnell, collapsing the scrum, the classic loose arm (and Rex Mossop would always point to the last hooker to get up being the culprit) - and my personal favorite - screwing the scrum.

Union of course had similar problems, but they went the other way - introducing reams of rules and guidelines that no results in referees telling everyone how to do it - and even at World Cup level that average scrum takes 10 tedious minutes when a quick round of paper, scissors, rock would do the trick. Still, that's Union - a game where completeley immersing every participant in the 1870's is the driving factor in the code's existance.

In League - the role of all bar the first 6 jumpers has changed.

  • Hookers are now converted halfbacks (ie Farah), then they were violent stumps (Killer Kearney) that used studs as weapons.
  • Props became hitup merchants (aka Petero) when once they were the hookers protector and the owner of intricate footwork in the contest for the ball (John O'Neill).
  • Second rowers provided thrust and power in scrums (Boyd), now they run menacingly at the opposition halfback and when tackled - lose the ball and appeal to the ref for a strip (Thaiday).
  • Locks used to bind and direct the scrum, and when lost, flatten the opposition halfback (Price). Now they are just the third "back" rower, having lost their title and their speciality (Gallen)
  • Halfbacks were once a scrum feeding expert, and responsible for influencing or decieving referees, while directing forwards in attack and maybe linking to the backs via the 5/8 (Sterling). Now they posess a wide array of passes and kicks and sometimes dont even need a pivot (Thurston)
The game has changed so much because of the change in scrums to the point where it is outdated. Yet it remains. The sole "excuse" - taking the forwards out of play and seeing backs on backs, is bullsh*t when the attacking sides biggest player is usually at 5/8 and runs straight at the defence.

It is time to deal with the elephant in the room. We must get rid of scrums.

And replace it with.................what?


Forgive me if someone has aleady pointed this out but the change happened largely due to amount of scrum penalties that were occurring and to "free" up the game.

Not that I can add anything else constructive to your point, I wish you still could be able to push ... Was there a new rule on that this season gone?
 

Kiwimation

Juniors
Messages
39
Isnt this what the AllStar games should be for. Rather than that power play which i think is stupid idea and will never be implemented in the NRL, they could try an alternitive to the scrum. Or try and fix it up.
 

PaddyBoy

Juniors
Messages
939
5 or 6 point scrum penalties ftw. Will stop one out stuff and a mistake will become that much more crucial.
 

Latest posts

Top