Send Offs in general

[Shanky]

I dont want to start a thread about Civoniceva, Stewart or anyone else in particular here, I just want some clarification on the send off rule. After the call tonight I decided to have a look at the rules and they are about as clear as mud.

All I could take from them is that if a player is guilty of misconduct the referee has the option to penalise, sin bin or send off the player, based on how extreme the case. There is nothing about what makes an extreme case a send off offence though.

After watching the incident tonight I thought on my understanding that it probably was a send off offence, but the vagueness of the rules have me thinking now it maybe wasn't.

From the foxsports post game show the following were all send offs:

Clint Newton (forearm to player's face)
Greg Bird (knees to player's head)
John Hopoate (jumping forearm to player's head)
Michael Weyman (striking player's face)
Ben Ross (forearm to player's face)
Brett White (striking player's face)
Wade McKinnon (knees to player's head)
Danny Williams (king hit to unaware player's head)

The common theme between all of those cases was intention, and as bad as tonight's hit was I don't know if it was intentional. I would think the more appropriate outcome would be a penalty, Civoniceva on report, and having a lengthy suspension.

I've used Civoniceva as an aid to my point, but again I don't want this thread to be about that send off in particular. I am hoping someone (maybe a referee) can explain to me what the guidelines are to sending off a player, in regards to the seriousness of the tackle, the intention to break a rule, and repeat offending.

Cheers.

 

[bboy_insane]

What I don't like is if it's a send-off the opposition get the advantage, but if it's on report, future teams get the advantage.

For example let's say Joe Blow from the Cobras punches Dean Smith from the Bushrangers.

If he goes on report, then the Bushrangers get absolutely no benefit from it. The teams due to play the Cobras in the next few games get the benefit of Joe Blow not playing.

If he gets sent off (or sin binned) the Bushrangers get the benefit of Joe Blow not playing. After all, he punched one of their players.

On top of this, the refs have NFI when it comes to when to use the sin-bin, send-off or on report.

Deal with it at the time, i.e. sin-bin or send-off. Less on reports and more dealing with it at the time of the infringement!

 

[strider]

What I don't like is if it's a send-off the opposition get the advantage, but if it's on report, future teams get the advantage.

For example let's say Joe Blow from the Cobras punches Dean Smith from the Bushrangers.

If he goes on report, then the Bushrangers get absolutely no benefit from it. The teams due to play the Cobras in the next few games get the benefit of Joe Blow not playing.

If he gets sent off (or sin binned) the Bushrangers get the benefit of Joe Blow not playing. After all, he punched one of their players.

On top of this, the refs have NFI when it comes to when to use the sin-bin, send-off or on report.

Deal with it at the time, i.e. sin-bin or send-off. Less on reports and more dealing with it at the time of the infringement!

yeah - fair point

 

[bboy_insane]

yeah - fair point

The refs use "on report" becauce they don't have the guts to make a decision in-game themselves. It's a cop-out.

 

[Tonearm Terrorwrist]

The Adrian Morley send off in 2005 off the back of Matt Utai's wonderful dive is the last send off I can remember off the top of my head that was for a head high tackle until tonight the rest have been for elbows and forearms and punches that I can remember.

bboy makes a great point aswell, this on report crap is another safety net like the video refs. Refs are not prepared to make a call for fear of backlash. Justin Hodges and Adrian Morley were sent off in consecutive years against the Dogs for high shots but neither were referred to the judiciary and suspended so now it is safer for the refs to put that on report than to send the player off because those two instances tell the referee that he got it wrong so it is better for him to just put it on report rather than send a bloke off the field for the rest of the game (both instances happened in the first half IIRC.)

If it was worthy of being on report surely it is worthy of spending time off the field or the video ref to have a look and make a decision?

No more on report calls.

 

[Slackboy72]

This is the State Of Origin give-them-blood mentality creeping in to the rest of the game.
We don't punish grubbiness or thuggery in SoO so the refs can't get back on their moral high-horses in NRL games. Even though they should. Yes there is a fair smack of intimidation needed in the game but there is a clear line of how you can and can't do that and more often than not it starts at the nape of the neck. And if anyone wants to think thuggery is all part of the game look at what it did to Steve Rogers jaw, career and life.

Personally I think it should come down to intent and if the offence is unilateral. Nowhere in the rules does it say it's okay to hit someone deliberately in the head you should be prepared to sit down for the rest of the game and serve time. As Brett Stewart should have.
If it's careless or reckless and damage is done then ten minutes and a trip to the judiciary on a careless charge. I'm looking at Daniel Conn.
If it's reckless and no serious damage is done and contact was made with a shoulder or off a ball then just leave it at a penalty and a report.
If two players want to get some niggle on and duke it out sit them both down for ten. Charge or fine them. Duking players are great for crowds but they hold up the game and fewer players on the field is a good thing anyway.

 

[avsterooster]

I used to do some local refereeing in the South Sydney comp a few years back, I assume rules are still the same.

Firstly you can not sin-bin a player for dangerous play. The Sin-bin is used for foul play (flops, slowing down the play). Obviously at times the sin-bin is used for fighting and getting in a brawl etc to cool off the situation.

However you cannot sin-bin (based off my prior knowledge) for high tackles/elbows and the rest etc.

So really the referee has 2 options, a send off and on report. As the first poster mentioned, one of the first things a referee looks for is sign of intent. But being realistic at the fast pace of a game, when you are monitoring the 10, watching the play the ball and the players around you, identifying intent is like finding a needle in a heystack.

It is very subjective and thats why their are so many worse offenses that arent send offs and so many lighter offenses that are send offs.

When I used to ref, I used to send off when I saw straight arms with fists clenched to the head, elbows etc, cases of aggression during the play leading to an illegal clash (pre-determined damage) etc.

I feel like the sin-bin rule should be introduced and used, that way the current team gets benefit for the foul for a period of 10 minutes. If the foul is really bad then they can be sent off (but sending off is very harsh on a team unless it is a very serious offense (maybe if the offense caused injury to the other teams player).

Thats my 2 cents.

 

[Talons]

:whistle

This is the State Of Origin give-them-blood mentality creeping in to the rest of the game.
We don't punish grubbiness or thuggery in SoO so the refs can't get back on their moral high-horses in NRL games. Even though they should. Yes there is a fair smack of intimidation needed in the game but there is a clear line of how you can and can't do that and more often than not it starts at the nape of the neck. And if anyone wants to think thuggery is all part of the game look at what it did to Steve Rogers jaw, career and life.

Personally I think it should come down to intent and if the offence is unilateral. Nowhere in the rules does it say it's okay to hit someone deliberately in the head you should be prepared to sit down for the rest of the game and serve time. As Brett Stewart should have.
If it's careless or reckless and damage is done then ten minutes and a trip to the judiciary on a careless charge. I'm looking at Daniel Conn.
If it's reckless and no serious damage is done and contact was made with a shoulder or off a ball then just leave it at a penalty and a report.
If two players want to get some niggle on and duke it out sit them both down for ten. Charge or fine them. Duking players are great for crowds but they hold up the game and fewer players on the field is a good thing anyway.

I didn't even see Brett Stewart on the field ?

 

[Slackboy72]

However you cannot sin-bin (based off my prior knowledge) for high tackles/elbows and the rest etc.

So really the referee has 2 options, a send off and on report. As the first poster mentioned, one of the first things a referee looks for is sign of intent. But being realistic at the fast pace of a game, when you are monitoring the 10, watching the play the ball and the players around you, identifying intent is like finding a needle in a heystack.

That's half the problem though. We are using a dud set of rules that make it harder for the refs.

I didn't even see Brett Stewart on the field ?

Yeah make that Glenn. You knew who I meant.

 

[Glen from the Mount]

The refs use "on report" becauce they don't have the guts to make a decision in-game themselves. It's a cop-out.

100% correct. That's why last night's call shocked everyone. I also believe it was a reaction by the refs to the Roosters / Manly game where there should of been at least one send off, possibly 2.

 

[Shanky]

I used to do some local refereeing in the South Sydney comp a few years back, I assume rules are still the same.

Firstly you can not sin-bin a player for dangerous play. The Sin-bin is used for foul play (flops, slowing down the play). Obviously at times the sin-bin is used for fighting and getting in a brawl etc to cool off the situation.

However you cannot sin-bin (based off my prior knowledge) for high tackles/elbows and the rest etc.

So really the referee has 2 options, a send off and on report. As the first poster mentioned, one of the first things a referee looks for is sign of intent. But being realistic at the fast pace of a game, when you are monitoring the 10, watching the play the ball and the players around you, identifying intent is like finding a needle in a heystack.

It is very subjective and thats why their are so many worse offenses that arent send offs and so many lighter offenses that are send offs.

When I used to ref, I used to send off when I saw straight arms with fists clenched to the head, elbows etc, cases of aggression during the play leading to an illegal clash (pre-determined damage) etc.

I feel like the sin-bin rule should be introduced and used, that way the current team gets benefit for the foul for a period of 10 minutes. If the foul is really bad then they can be sent off (but sending off is very harsh on a team unless it is a very serious offense (maybe if the offense caused injury to the other teams player).

Thats my 2 cents.

That's the sort of info I was after. Out of curiousity how do refs get taught that? As i said there is no way they could infer all that out of the rule book, so is it taught in referee training or something like that?

Also, I can understand that intent would be hard to find in a non-professional game, but given that in the NRL hits come under review from the video ref at the time, I think it would be a fair bit easier to see.

 

[Bobby DIGital]

The Adrian Morley send off in 2005 off the back of Matt Utai's wonderful dive is the last send off I can remember off the top of my head that was for a head high tackle until tonight the rest have been for elbows and forearms and punches that I can remember.

I think I remember that. I remember the knee to Corey Hughes clearer though. What year was that, and did he get sent off?

Last high tackle one I remember is SBW on Johns rd 1 2007.

 

[Pierced Soul]

has anyone ever been sent in modern times for spear tackles/ dangerous throws? cos we see players sent occasionally for fighting or for swinging arms or even dissent but i dont remember any spear tackles getting sent off

 

[Perth Red]

I think it was the video ref that made the Petro call. You could hear the onfield ref ask a couple of times "are you sure?". If you go in with a stiff arm and it hits first point of contact on chin then it is a sending off imo. Same with elbow, knees or a punch to an unsuspecting opposition. I'd also chuck in a headbutt regardless of force as that is a deliberate act of thuggery.

also why does a player have to report a biting incident. Surely if the ref hears him say he has been bitten and there is a mark or video evidence then he should put it on report regardless of what the player wants?

 

[Tom Shines]

What about mandatory five minute sin-bins if the tackle is deemed worthy of a report?

 

[simmo1]

Warbuton went off injured after the hit right? I think that has a lot to do with the sending off. If a player is clearly injured (beyond just groginess or concussion) from a high tackle and is unlikely to return, its a send off a lot of the time.

 

[Dr Crane]

Last high tackle one I remember is SBW on Johns rd 1 2007.

i remember crockett (nuffy warriors winger for anyone playing at home) on a bulldogs player in the same year, i believe.

 

[Tonearm Terrorwrist]

I think I remember that. I remember the knee to Corey Hughes clearer though. What year was that, and did he get sent off?

Last high tackle one I remember is SBW on Johns rd 1 2007.

The knee in the head was in 2006 and was a definite send off but I can't remember how many weeks he received, it may have been around the 6 week margain.

The Morley on Utai incident happened in 2005 when Utai stepped him and Moz threw out the arm and clipped him around the shoulders and Utai went down like he had been shot then after Morley was sent from the field he was up like nothing happened. A year later Morley apparently reacted to some niggle and kneed Hughes although I seem to remember doubt whether he actually connected or if he more pushed him before his knee made contact, it certainly wasn't a Greg Bird knee but the intent was there and a send off was warranted.

I stand corrected as you are right with the Sonny Bill send off which looked soft on first viewing but it did put Johns out forever??

So between Morley in 2005 and Petero last night we have had maybe two send offs for head high tackles.

I seem to recall Wade McKinnon being sent off by Simpkins for a dodgy knee in to the head call, that's three send offs he got wrong IMO.

 

[Bobby DIGital]

i remember crockett (nuffy warriors winger for anyone playing at home) on a bulldogs player in the same year, i believe.

I vaguely remember that. lol @ Crockett, after the rape scandal what happened to him?

I stand corrected as you are right with the Sonny Bill send off which looked soft on first viewing but it did put Johns out forever??

Johns came back 2 weeks later against us and we smashed Newcastle and ended his career.

 

[Iafeta]

I dont want to start a thread about Civoniceva, Stewart or anyone else in particular here, I just want some clarification on the send off rule. After the call tonight I decided to have a look at the rules and they are about as clear as mud.

All I could take from them is that if a player is guilty of misconduct the referee has the option to penalise, sin bin or send off the player, based on how extreme the case. There is nothing about what makes an extreme case a send off offence though.

After watching the incident tonight I thought on my understanding that it probably was a send off offence, but the vagueness of the rules have me thinking now it maybe wasn't.

From the foxsports post game show the following were all send offs:

Clint Newton (forearm to player's face)
Greg Bird (knees to player's head)
John Hopoate (jumping forearm to player's head)
Michael Weyman (striking player's face)
Ben Ross (forearm to player's face)
Brett White (striking player's face)
Wade McKinnon (knees to player's head)
Danny Williams (king hit to unaware player's head)

The common theme between all of those cases was intention, and as bad as tonight's hit was I don't know if it was intentional. I would think the more appropriate outcome would be a penalty, Civoniceva on report, and having a lengthy suspension.

I've used Civoniceva as an aid to my point, but again I don't want this thread to be about that send off in particular. I am hoping someone (maybe a referee) can explain to me what the guidelines are to sending off a player, in regards to the seriousness of the tackle, the intention to break a rule, and repeat offending.

Cheers.

Wade McKinnon did not knee a player to the head. Paul Simpkins lost his cool and made up a call on the spot to dismiss him.