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Sia's Hit

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,474
Fair and just decision as far as I'm concerned. Could've easily pulled out, had fist clenched, clearly was an act of frustration if not malice to get Slater.

Has the media reaction been higher because it's Slater? Yes. But it's still the right result.
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,224
imo it was a hard, late cheap shot that would have been a "rib tickler" if Slater doesn't completely lose his footing at the last moment.

My philosophy is you punish an assailant for what they actually did, not every consequence foreseen and unforeseen.

If we really want to deter dangerous play then start suspending blokes for blatant late, hard tackles even if they aren't high. Otherwise it all feels a bit random to me.
 

jaseg

Juniors
Messages
2,274
Yeah, but what he "actually did" was hit a guy in the head with a hard swinging arm.

Sure, he didn't intend to - but the fact remains that he did it. Slater was dropping, but not nearly fast or far enough to make a direct, very hard hit to the head only worth the penalty imo... even if he wasn't dropping that was not a rib shot, it was a high shoulder hit with potential to slip up.

Then add in the fact that it was late...

Easy send off.

Of course, from a less objective standpoint... I'd prefer things like this didn't happen at all... but if it had to happen, at least it was to a grub like him with form for putting other players in unnecessary danger.
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,224
Yeah, but what he "actually did" was hit a guy in the head with a hard swinging arm. Sure, he didn't intend to - but the fact remains that he did it.

Well if you want to get right down to it, "what he actually did" was a tackle aimed at a legal position on Slater's body. You're being a bit obtuse saying that someone "did" something when it is beyond the limits of their reflexes to avoid it (not making the tackle at all, which he clearly could have avoided, but making it high once he decided to carry on and tackle him late).

Slater was dropping, but not nearly fast or far enough to make a direct, very hard hit to the head only worth the penalty imo... even if he wasn't dropping that was not a rib shot, it was a high shoulder hit with potential to slip up.

Disagree and I think it is absolutely clear from the video that it's not a high tackle if Slater doesn't fall but if we've both watched the film and seen different things then agree to disagree I guess.
 

jaseg

Juniors
Messages
2,274
Well if you want to get right down to it, "what he actually did" was a tackle aimed at a legal position on Slater's body. You're being a bit obtuse saying that someone "did" something when it is beyond the limits of their reflexes to avoid it (not making the tackle at all, which he clearly could have avoided, but making it high once he decided to carry on and tackle him late).

He hit the guy in the head. That's what happened, that's what he did - it's not a question of intent, just of action. It's not a hypothetical, we can see the result.

I don't think that's obtuse at all... simply an observation of what happened.

Beyond that, the fact that it came from a late hit kind of negates any question RE intent anyway... he didn't need to make contact - and the tackler is always the one responsible for ensuring that they do not put the tackled player in danger.
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,224
He hit the guy in the head. That's what happened, that's what he did - it's not a question of intent, just of action. It's not a hypothetical, we can see the result.

I don't think that's obtuse at all... simply an observation of what happened.

It's an observation of what happened, it's not an observation of what Soliola did. Slater being struck in the head was a consequence, not an action.

Soliola attempts legal tackle at chest area (action) + Slater slipping (action, albeit accidental) = Soliola's arm striking Slater's head (consequence)

If you are saying that players are culpable for contact with the head that could not have been avoided other than by not making the tackle at all then I fundamentally disagree. Punishing "foul play" where the foul play only exists because of someone else's actions and couldn't realistically have been avoided is just pointless and nonsensical imo. It's an absurd situation if defenders find themselves randomly getting penalised or not penalised for making identical tackles (i.e doing the exact same thing).

Btw I realise this is the way of the world now (it's way worse in Rugby Union) so I'm fighting against the tide. I think we should harshly punish high tackles which are actually HIGH because you're not actually deterring anything by punishing defenders for what the attacker does, just arbitrarily punishing.

Beyond that, the fact that it came from a late hit kind of negates any question RE intent anyway... he didn't need to make contact - and the tackler is always the one responsible for ensuring that they do not put the tackled player in danger.

Disagree but I understand the philosophy. I don't personally agree that someone who makes a late tackle should subsequently become liable for an injury to the tackled player which doesn't relate to the thing that made the tackle illegal.

I was also reading that the clenched fist and stiff arm are seen as markers of intent. If that's so then why is it not against the rules to tackle with a clenched fist and a swinging arm? Start punishing these acts, not waiting for accidental or unavoidable head contact and then retrospectively finding the offence.

If we want to actually punish harmful acts and deter bad tackles then punish cheap, late tackles rather than scapegoating someone the one day the attacking player happens to slip.
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,224
I realise I've chosen a pretty bad hill to die on here but I guess philosophically I'm just a big fan of punishing on the basis of deliberate actions and not unfortunate consequences.
 

jaseg

Juniors
Messages
2,274
It's an observation of what happened, it's not an observation of what Soliola did. Slater being struck in the head was a consequence, not an action.

They're one and the same, though. What happened is what Sia did - he was the active participant. A player is not judged by what he tried to do, but by what he ended up doing. Slater slipping is a factor that knocks some time off his suspension - but shouldn't change the fact that he hit the bloke late and in the head. The fact remains he simply shouldn't have been making the tackle to begin with, which counters the Slater slipping factor (for suspension considerations).

It's clear we have a different view on the standard for this stuff - I agree union take it too far (basically any head high contact = sin bin), but they're probably closer to my ideal than NRL. The more we learn about the long term effects of head trauma, the more this stuff needs to change unfortunately... someone's going to get hit with a class action suit otherwise (well, someone is going to get hit with one regardless.. but if there isn't enough visible action on head knocks - HIA is a start but not an end - you're just leaving yourself open to actually losing). And I'd rather not see the game in financial ruins for the sake of a few players getting more heavily punished for head high tackles.

Right now if I'm looking at taking on either the NRL or ARU/Super Rugby for concussion-related damages... the NRL is the easy target. Archer throwing the ref under the bus is a case for the (hypothetical) defence, but at the end of the day it would be remarkably easy to get around that by establishing a pattern of referees failing to adequately deal with foul play.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,474
Yeah, I'm with jase. Sia made his bed by both hitting Slater with a stiff arm and incredibly late - Slater falling into it was an unfortunate consequence but the player had time to pull out and not to hit as hard as he did. He didn't 'intentionally' target the head but it was dangerous, and there was intent in the tackle because of how horrendously late and stiff armed it was.

Union are getting it incredibly wrong, incidentally. Jerome Kaino got binned in the third Test for a tackle that he couldn't have pulled out of it, he used arms and would've hit around the sternum had the guy not completely fallen. How you can bin that when the tackler can do nothing about that is beyond me. It can actually encourage head contact. It happens in the AFL, some players actively duck to elicit head high contact for free kicks.
 
Messages
10,085
That about sums it up !!

Didn't have this level of outcry in 2007 when Stewart got stretchered off in the GF after getting elbowed in the head
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,736
Slater is a grubby merkin, no mistake - not sure how he manages his angelic media profile - some just watch a different game to me

Sia deserved a suspension, just if it had have been a no-name Melbourne forward, or even Blair or Chambers I don't think he gets 5 weeks, and there certainly isn't the media outcry...

But they do need to take head contact seriously, I just don't see why some heads are viewed as more important than others... that's about money and image, and not health
 

Blair

Coach
Messages
11,204
Slater is a grubby merkin, no mistake...But they do need to take head contact seriously, I just don't see why some heads are viewed as more important than others... that's about money and image, and not health

Yeah, the mums around Australia/NZ heard about who's head got whacked. Dads too.
 

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