So... how good is SJ really?

[SpaceMonkey]

Shaun was copping a fair bit of crap at times for inconsistency before he got injured- but the way everything has turned to custard since he went down I think we've actually been underestimating his worth.
Early season when he was off form- we're ordinary but still win some.
Mid season when he hits form- we're one of the best attacking sides in the comp.
Late season without him- we're screwed.

In hindsight it looks to me that the inconsistency was probably as much down to the fact that our attack wasn't really being coached, and we were being driven almost solely by Shaun's talent. Which begs the question, with proper coaching and game plans, how good could he actually be, especially with Luke and RTS in the team?

 

[jaseg]

He's very bloody good. Possibly the 2nd best halfback going around, but definitely in the tier/group directly below the rather singular JT. He's underrated by a few around here for reasons which often don't stand up when really scrutinized, such as the 'consistency' thing I've addressed previously.

RTS & Luke (both upgrade in ability & probably style) might push him up near JT-level creativity/chances, though I doubt he will actually become as good in general... JT is otherworldly freakish at reading the play.

 

[lafai]

Never heard of him

 

[JJ]

Shaun was copping a fair bit of crap at times for inconsistency before he got injured- but the way everything has turned to custard since he went down I think we've actually been underestimating his worth.
Early season when he was off form- we're ordinary but still win some.
Mid season when he hits form- we're one of the best attacking sides in the comp.
Late season without him- we're screwed.

In hindsight it looks to me that the inconsistency was probably as much down to the fact that our attack wasn't really being coached, and we were being driven almost solely by Shaun's talent. Which begs the question, with proper coaching and game plans, how good could he actually be, especially with Luke and RTS in the team?

Isn't that just a standard Warriors season, regardless of Johnson? Slow start, mid season hit form, slump at end...

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Isn't that just a standard Warriors season, regardless of Johnson? Slow start, mid season hit form, slump at end...

Yeah but it's far more pronounced this year. I think it's dangerous just to write it off as being for the same reasons.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Went back and looked at the team I had penciled in for round 1 during pre-season. 5 out of 17 (and another 2 out of position (Lolohea/Konnie).

There's more to what's happening than just injuries, but it's safe to say very little has gone to plan.

 

[Sanchez]

Went back and looked at the team I had penciled in for round 1 during pre-season. 5 out of 17 (and another 2 out of position (Lolohea/Konnie).

There's more to what's happening than just injuries, but it's safe to say very little has gone to plan.

You wanna post that side for a giggle?

 

[JJ]

Yeah but it's far more pronounced this year. I think it's dangerous just to write it off as being for the same reasons.

Fair enough - but for mine the more relevant factors are a shit coaching team, overrated youngsters who've got by on attacking talent and have no heart for defence - we simply can't get to the top 4 if we don't deliver week in week out, and that seems a long way away at the moment.

Johnson's good, I really don't see him as a traditional #7 though - obviously Thurston is far better than anyone else - for me Cronk is still #2, and then DCE, SJ, Hunt and Reynolds kind of on a par. Certainly Johnson can do things they can't do, but at a pinch I'd still rather have DCE or Reynolds in my #7 jersey (happier with Johnson at 6 where the pressure's off a bit)

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

You wanna post that side for a giggle?

1. Tomkins
2. Fish/Fusitua/Lolohea* - the one position I couldn't decide on
3. Hurrell*
4. Laumape
5. Vatuvei
6. Townsend
7. Johnson
8. Lillyman
9. Leuluai
10. Matulino
11. Hoffman
12. Thompson
13. Mannering

14. Friend
15. Rapira
16. Matagi
17. Henry

The one in bold I picked (I still count Friend because even though he's starting now he's always played hooker and that's it)

 

[SpaceMonkey]

^the upside is that Lisone and Vete have probably exceeded what we'd have expected from Matagi and Rapira, and RFM is at least as good as Benry. But yeah the rest has been a shambles due to the injuries.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

How come RFM isn't playing anyone know?

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I think we're all wondering that. I'm worried the Dogs signing rumour is true.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

How come RFM isn't playing anyone know?

I'd love to know, but unless he goes to the Dogs we'll never know. Media aren't asking, and admittedly I didn't even notice last week when his name wasn't on the team sheet until Meth (I think) pointed it out

On SJ, I know I'm like a stuck f**king record but I wonder how much of his early season form was to do with team structure and how he was coached.

The reason I say that is he came off a Kiwis campaign where he was free to roam both sides of the ruck, call for the ball at will and basically play his own way and he absolutely killed it. Cut to round 1 onwards and he ran exclusively right, was playing before the line and we actually went left a hell of a lot more. That was evidenced in the amount of TAs Chad had, which I'm certain outstripped SJs. And also when McFadden went on the record mid-year and said SJ would play more as a roaming six in future, which I felt was a veiled admittance he got it wrong.

I don't believe for a second it was arrogance, Golden Boot malaise or anything else. I'm a SJ fan boy but I truly believe he's a dedicated pro. It shows in his physical shape that he was able to become much bigger, he's a massively improved goalkicker and especially on defence, he's come a hell of a long way. He copped it in the media and I reckon undeservedly so.

So yeah, I'm probably biased but I think Shaun is a bonafide gun who can have JT's career if things go his way. JT obviously has Origin as his legacy, and Shaun has carrying the Kiwis to Test/series wins off his own back, and would obviously need a premiership at least as well. He's a once in a generation player (as Stacey was) who I would hate to see leave our club at any stage.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

^agree, that's pretty much what I was getting at. Almost seemed like mid-season he just thought "this isn't working, I'm just gonna play it my way (Kearney's way?)" and got the results. I don't think we've ever seen him consistently coached well apart from maybe his first half season- and look where that went.

 

[playdaball]

To date, Ken and Ben have been resigned by the Warriors but not RFM - not a good sign.

 

[The European Polynesian]

Really really f**king good. On attack and defense.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

I'd love to know, but unless he goes to the Dogs we'll never know. Media aren't asking, and admittedly I didn't even notice last week when his name wasn't on the team sheet until Meth (I think) pointed it out

On SJ, I know I'm like a stuck f**king record but I wonder how much of his early season form was to do with team structure and how he was coached.

The reason I say that is he came off a Kiwis campaign where he was free to roam both sides of the ruck, call for the ball at will and basically play his own way and he absolutely killed it. Cut to round 1 onwards and he ran exclusively right, was playing before the line and we actually went left a hell of a lot more. That was evidenced in the amount of TAs Chad had, which I'm certain outstripped SJs. And also when McFadden went on the record mid-year and said SJ would play more as a roaming six in future, which I felt was a veiled admittance he got it wrong.

I don't believe for a second it was arrogance, Golden Boot malaise or anything else. I'm a SJ fan boy but I truly believe he's a dedicated pro. It shows in his physical shape that he was able to become much bigger, he's a massively improved goalkicker and especially on defence, he's come a hell of a long way. He copped it in the media and I reckon undeservedly so.

So yeah, I'm probably biased but I think Shaun is a bonafide gun who can have JT's career if things go his way. JT obviously has Origin as his legacy, and Shaun has carrying the Kiwis to Test/series wins off his own back, and would obviously need a premiership at least as well. He's a once in a generation player (as Stacey was) who I would hate to see leave our club at any stage.

Watch JT highlights and you'll see as many raids on the right as on the left. Ben Hunt's emergence has come on the back of him being allowed to play both sides of the ruck. Cooper Cronk links on both sides and controls things from the middle.

Unless you have two gun halves at the same time ie Foran/DCE then you need to be giving your dominant half the freedom to attack weaknesses on both sides of the ruck when and how he sees them developing.

Next year we have to play direct with SJ roaming both sides. When you look at our spine SJ, Luke, RTS are at their best when playing this way. Can you imagine SJ and RTS both hovering around the middle of the field looking to expose slow moving props/second rowers.

if we continue with our 45 degree run to the sideline/corners system next year then we're just shooting ourselves in the foot.

 

[Auckland4ever]

He was copping a lot of the blame for our losses for being inconsistent, overrated, not taking more control etc etc - he's not blameless, however, how are you supposed to take control when, over and over your team loses momentum just as quickly as it gains it? How are you supposed to be consistent when momentum swings against you so often, pretty much every week? Poorly drilled defense, consistently high error rates, too much reliance on inexperienced players - the Warriors club is currently wasting his talent.

Unless they can learn how to hold onto momentum as a unit, to keep opposition sides to less than three tries on a regular basis and to grind out wins when they have to, it doesn't matter what attacking structure the Warriors play with next year, they'll be wasting RTS's talent, too.

We're obviously missing Johnson's running and kicking game, but we're also missing his voice out there - would be interesting to get the entire team miced up, to hear how much communication is actually taking place between players - the directionless way they've been playing, it's probably very little to none.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Watch JT highlights and you'll see as many raids on the right as on the left. Ben Hunt's emergence has come on the back of him being allowed to play both sides of the ruck. Cooper Cronk links on both sides and controls things from the middle.

Unless you have two gun halves at the same time ie Foran/DCE then you need to be giving your dominant half the freedom to attack weaknesses on both sides of the ruck when and how he sees them developing.

Next year we have to play direct with SJ roaming both sides. When you look at our spine SJ, Luke, RTS are at their best when playing this way. Can you imagine SJ and RTS both hovering around the middle of the field looking to expose slow moving props/second rowers.

if we continue with our 45 degree run to the sideline/corners system next year then we're just shooting ourselves in the foot.

Absolutely right. That's why Tui can't be in the halves unless Thomas is injured. Tui is a crab who plays without structure and will get in SJ's way. That SJ/Tui dynamic won't work.

 

[Fufu Andronez]

He's our best player