State of Origin 2025

[Blair]

The front row selections and the Luai over Burton on form are issues, with the apparent lack of game plans and missing the start in two games is telling… if Daley keeps his job it’s a joke tbh.

Either way, sports-wise, Origin helps us get through winter. Wimbledon will soon be done, the Tour de France is upon us, the Lions tour, an All Black test or two, and it'll soon be spring and NRL finals time!

Cool.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

The front row selections and the Luai over Burton on form are issues, with the apparent lack of game plans and missing the start in two games is telling… if Daley keeps his job it’s a joke tbh

Luai I think was the correct call, he won them they series last year, and got similar treatment after Moses went down that the line of Edwards, Cleary and To’o got, when you could argue guys like Tedesco, Katoa and Kiraz have outplayed them comfortably this year

Personally I keep Daley there, as I said earlier, very fine line, if Lomax kicked his goals in game 2 it would have been one of the great wins after the Ashley Klein special on the first 45mins. I think the game plans were there, but the halves didn’t deliver them

 

[JJ]

Luai I think was the correct call, he won them they series last year, and got similar treatment after Moses went down that the line of Edwards, Cleary and To’o got, when you could argue guys like Tedesco, Katoa and Kiraz have outplayed them comfortably this year

Personally I keep Daley there, as I said earlier, very fine line, if Lomax kicked his goals in game 2 it would have been one of the great wins after the Ashley Klein special on the first 45mins. I think the game plans were there, but the halves didn’t deliver them

Good points…. At this point Cleary and To’o are automatics…. The degree to which Cleary was impacted by his injury is an issue, but they cleared him. Re Luai, yep but Burton has been much better this year and has big game experience…. Paas aside the props were weird, and a hooker that offers more is essential imo…

 

[Beavers Headgear]

Bit of a bump here, but a random thought

Cleary has the knock on him that he hasn’t dominated Origin, so that’s knock him off the top tier of players

Now, Bellamy was a pretty average Origin coach, and he was involved heavily in this NSW campaign. Why is he not held to the same standard in regard to his greatness and legacy ?

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Bit of a bump here, but a random thought

Cleary has the knock on him that he hasn’t dominated Origin, so that’s knock him off the top tier of players

Now, Bellamy was a pretty average Origin coach, and he was involved heavily in this NSW campaign. Why is he not held to the same standard in regard to his greatness and legacy ?

Hell of a point.

I'd say because halfbacks are held to the highest of standards. They're expected to win games off their own back, be great from day one, never have an off day, and so on. The buck for responsibility seems to start and end with halfbacks.

You could also say the same about players in other positions in that Penrith/NSW side couldn't you?

 

[JJ]

Bellamy has failed at that level, no question

The criticism of Cleary is unfair tbh, most of the origin greats had their share of struggles and losing, different era but really Wally the only exception.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Bellamy has failed at that level, no question

The criticism of Cleary is unfair tbh, most of the origin greats had their share of struggles and losing, different era but really Wally the only exception.

Then again, wasn't Bellamy beaten by the beasts he helped create - Inglis, Cronk, Smith and Slater? Sorry Dallas Johnson, I don't include you here

No one would say that Mal Meninga is a better coach than Bellamy but that's how it presents in results. Maybe you should be judged as an NRL coach/player and Origin, with no crossover. And the true greats - ie Joey, Wally, Cam Smith etc - are both. Some, ie Mal, have it fall into their arms, you could argue Darius was the same - his Origin numbers are elite but he isn't an NRL elite player. And Bellamy probably fell into the hardest gig possible, one he kinda created for himself.

 

[Scott]

Bit of a bump here, but a random thought

Cleary has the knock on him that he hasn’t dominated Origin, so that’s knock him off the top tier of players

Now, Bellamy was a pretty average Origin coach, and he was involved heavily in this NSW campaign. Why is he not held to the same standard in regard to his greatness and legacy ?

Craig Bellamy actually hasn't won anything without Cameron Smith. He is a superb coach, but a fair way behind Bennett imo.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Craig Bellamy actually hasn't won anything with Cameron Smith. He is a superb coach, but a fair way behind Bennett imo.

Presume you mean without, no one's won anything in that time apart from Penrith.

Wayne Bennett's last premiership was in 2010, was it not?

We play the comparison game and it's fun to play, but you're never comparing apples with apples. It's not like comparing two golfers who play on exactly the same course at the same time. People could mount arguments for either.

The consistency of Bellamy sides is unrivalled, almost through history unless you look at the 11-straight Dragons.

Bennett has won more, at Origin, Test and NRL level.

Bennett has never been in charge of a team that was stripped of premierships for cheating, with the knowledge that the coach has their fingerprints over everything that happens at that club (as with Bellamy)

You say Bellamy never won anything without Cam Smith, but Bellamy developed him. Wasn't Smith a 7 coming through (he debuted there) and teams overlooked him on size?

So yeah, it's really hard to judge. I wouldn't even try. Both are outstanding

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I think with Cleary it's not just pure win/loss in Origin, it's his overall personal performance in both Origin and big games generally.

Even in winning big games he has been poor quite often. For example, I remember him being ordinary in the 2018 Origin series, and most of the grand finals aside from 2023. He won the Clive Churchill in 2021 which was farcical, Penrith dominated that game and Cleary made absolutely nothing of it - Cody Walker created twice as much out of half as much ball but all anyone remembers is he threw the intercept to Crichton.

Of course, his last 15 minutes in 2023 was so iconic that you can't really say he's not a big match player.

I do think there's a genuine issue around the style of player he is, and that not translating as well against elite defences, because he doesn't have that extra stroke of genius to unlock defences.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

The NRL is set to review Origin eligibility rules. It could shake up the game

Rule changes to Origin qualification rules are being considered that would strengthen the Kangaroos biggest rivals.

www.smh.com.au

Not a 2025 thing obviously but the closest thread I could think of.

Not sure its a good thing for Origin, but it would be a major boost for the Kiwis.

 

[JJ]

I think with Cleary it's not just pure win/loss in Origin, it's his overall personal performance in both Origin and big games generally.

Even in winning big games he has been poor quite often. For example, I remember him being ordinary in the 2018 Origin series, and most of the grand finals aside from 2023. He won the Clive Churchill in 2021 which was farcical, Penrith dominated that game and Cleary made absolutely nothing of it - Cody Walker created twice as much out of half as much ball but all anyone remembers is he threw the intercept to Crichton.

Of course, his last 15 minutes in 2023 was so iconic that you can't really say he's not a big match player.

I do think there's a genuine issue around the style of player he is, and that not translating as well against elite defences, because he doesn't have that extra stroke of genius to unlock defences.

I could be way wrong, my recollection is hazy and I didn't buy all the sycophancy, but could we say similar of Thurston - his Churchill medal was a joke, did he really 'dominate' origin games (hard to I guess with the talent around him) - maybe he did, but I kind of always looked at him as a better version of Terry Lamb...

 

[Matua]

The NRL is set to review Origin eligibility rules. It could shake up the game

Rule changes to Origin qualification rules are being considered that would strengthen the Kangaroos biggest rivals.

www.smh.com.au

Not a 2025 thing obviously but the closest thread I could think of.

Not sure its a good thing for Origin, but it would be a major boost for the Kiwis.

I wont get my hopes up, because Aussies.

As for the bold, that horse has already bolted with the PIs.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I could be way wrong, my recollection is hazy and I didn't buy all the sycophancy, but could we say similar of Thurston - his Churchill medal was a joke, did he really 'dominate' origin games (hard to I guess with the talent around him) - maybe he did, but I kind of always looked at him as a better version of Terry Lamb...

My memory says he did, but yes I also remember 2015 when Michael Morgan should have won the Churchill but if a team wins, and the halfback stays upright for 80 minutes, they're a red hot chance of winning.

That's why it was outrageous that Brent Kite won it in 08 in a 40-0 shellacking. But a nice change given spine players, especially halves generally win it.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

Shit you’ll get me excited talking 08 again lol, Kite was absolutely outstanding that day. Big metres, beautiful line break assist off a kick off, and scored the try that put the game beyond doubt

To bring it back to topic, Thurston. For me he is a fair way back in the list of 7 skills wise, but he was the ultimate competitor. Tom Dearden shows a lot of the same traits now.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I could be way wrong, my recollection is hazy and I didn't buy all the sycophancy, but could we say similar of Thurston - his Churchill medal was a joke, did he really 'dominate' origin games (hard to I guess with the talent around him) - maybe he did, but I kind of always looked at him as a better version of Terry Lamb...

Yes his Clive Churchill was on par with Cleary's - I would genuinely say in both cases that not only did they not deserve it, but they actually both choked and had outright poor games.

The clear best player on ground that night was, of all people, Anthony Milford. He was basically having a perfect night until he made a line break with a minute to go and then lost the ball when tackled - and I think if you watch the replay, there's a very strong argument that it was actually a deliberate strip and a knock on by the Cowboys which should have been game over.

With Thurston, I always struggled to see exactly why he was so good. I always thought a lot of his passing and kicking looked quite laboured and ungainly. I did however think that he starred in Origin, but then it's hard to separate the efforts of Inglis, Thurston, Smith, Slater etc and pinpoint who was the "real" star.

I actually think it's Cronk who has started to become overrated because he has such a great trophy cabinet that people are forgetting he was a back up to Thurston and Lockyer for most of his career and arguably only the 3rd or 4th best player in his club team most of the time.

Also, and this is of course a bit of a wild take for a bloke who won 5 grand finals - but for how dominant the Storm were, their record in the finals was only middling and they had a number of notable flame outs (like getting done by the Warriors multiple times, losing 40-0 in a GF, choking vs Brisbane after a dominant season etc). On occasions where Smith or Slater were out, they never really won anything. Cronk's reputation got a massive boost from joining a red hot Roosters side as an old man.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

The clear best player on ground that night was, of all people, Anthony Milford. He was basically having a perfect night until he made a line break with a minute to go and then lost the ball when tackled - and I think if you watch the replay, there's a very strong argument that it was actually a deliberate strip and a knock on by the Cowboys which should have been game over.

Yea I remember Milf having a good game. Unfortunately he was also the one who got stripped by Morgan on his way to putting Feldt over.

Hunt being blamed for the loss was as undeserved as JT getting the Churchill I reckon. If there was a moment they lost the game it was the leftside calamity triggered by Morgan getting outside Milf.

Helluva game though, sits alongside 89 and '23 as the most enthralling GF's I've seen.