The Cleanout That Needs to Happen

[Misanthrope]

I've posted the 'team' below in another thread, but thought that this might warrant individual discussion.

As I've said elsewhere, our problem isn't our inability to produce quality juniors, it's our ability to nurture to them to potential. How many Knights juniors are currently out plying their trade in the NRL at the top level because we either didn't see the potential in them or didn't have what it takes to encourage them? I'm looking at the likes of Tupou, Ennis, Tahu etc.

I look at sides like North Queensland and New Zealand. These are sides who, up until a handful of years ago, were perennial strugglers despite their ability to produce talents such as Matt Bowen, Scott Prince, Clinton Toopi, and Ali Lauititi. Why? Because while they were producing these raw, talented guys - they had no way to refine them into first graders. They were being tossed into the deep end and asked to adapt without any clear of example of what a first grader should be.

Then look at the kind of players these two clubs brought in. Kevin Campion, Ivan Clearly, Paul Rauhihi, Travis Norton... these aren't superstars of the game, but they're men who know the game and have been delivering in the top flight for many years. Who are the players in the current Knights' squad who could boast that claim? Danny Buderus and Steve Simpson are just about the only two who spring to mind, with Kurt Gidley only emerging this year as a player of that calibre.

More recently, South Sydney bought guys like Kidwell and Asotasi. They're in hot form, of course, but they're also veterans who can help the likes of Manakuafoa and Sutton develop their games. At best, a player coming through at Newcastle can look forward to beard pruning lessons from Kirk Reynoldson and Miss Universe Dumping tutorials with Clint Newton. Pie eating with Perry and silver bunny stealing with Mad Dog.

Guys like Clint Newton, Kirk Reynoldson, Josh Perry, and Adam MacDougall are clearly not delivering what we require of them. All four have their hot games that seem to grant them a reprieve from taking the responsibility for losses like today. Yes, we had our three key players out. Yes, we were without regular first graders. But that's an excuse for a loss - not a 71 to 6 drubbing against a side that was running dead last prior to today's game. Guys like Mullen and Patterson and McManus can't be expected to perform in games like this when the experienced campaigners aren't even bothering. Where is the pride in the jersey? Hell, where is the pride in your own ability? I hate to lose as a player in any game - yet we had seventeen guys out there who, with the possible exception of Mullen, didn't seem all that bothered by it. They didn't just let the fans down, they were selling their own immense abilities short.

What needs to be done? Brian Smith needs to make some changes. I'm not talking about for next weekend's game against Sydney - I'm talking about some changes at the club. The guys who have been around forever based purely on the fact they're 'loyal' local juniors need to put up or ship out. Guys like Perry, Woolnough, Newton - I'm looking at you. Not a one of them would run on at another club on their current form, and the days where they produce good form are few and far between.

We lack experience in key positions. With the exception of Kurt Gidley at fullback, Steve Simpson in the pack, and Danny Buderus at hooker - we've got nobody at the club who is a five eighth, a halfback who still needs time to develop his craft, a lock forward who is a glorified Premier League player, and a pack full of guys who are either past it or raw and in dire need of some tutoring from experienced workhorses. Our backline, with the exception of McManus and possibly Vuna/Franze - is atrocious. Local juniors aren't getting the job done, and we need to look beyond the Hunter for our threequarters until guys like Uate are ready to step into the top flight. I, for one, am glad Akuila didn't have to subject himself to today's game. Enough fragile egos were doubtless damaged.

1: Kurt Gidley
2: James McManus
3: NEW
4: NEW
5: Akuila Uate/Cooper Vuna/Paul Franze
6: NEW
7: Jarrod Mullen
8: NEW
9: Danny Buderus
10: NEW
11: Steve Simpson
12: Cory Patterson
13: NEW

14: Adam Woolnough/Josh Perry
15: Mark Tuafua/Daniel Abraham

16: Kade Snowden/Matthew White
17: Clint Newton/Mitchell Sargent

Simply put, we need two first grade quality centres. I don't care if they're flashy - they just need to work. Adam MacDougall is a lazy son of a bitch on a retirement holiday, and guys like Tighe and Carmont are not up to first grade standard in defence despite whatever natural attacking abilities they may have.

Jarrod Mullen needs a partner in the halves who isn't a forward pretending to be a playmaker. Daniel Abraham is probably our only real lock contender, Chris Bailey is vanilla, and Riley Brown is still riding on the 'potential' we were talking about two years ago. We need somebody to take the pressure of Mullen's kicking game and organisation game or he'll burn out like the likes of Soward and Lewis before him.

Our starting props are not good enough. Josh Perry is a powderpuff with an ego, Adam Woolnough is reliable but little else, and our junior stocks in the front row seem sparse at best. Mitchell Sargent might be the answer, but given Smith's reluctance to use him, I'm beginning to suspect that maybe he's not up to scratch either. Clint Newton is not a starting second rower, and he sure as sh*t 'aint a starting front rower. We need props with mongrel or props with a work ethic. We have neither.

We need a lock. Maybe Abraham is that man. It's not Kirk Reynoldson.

The hot prospects we have such as Tolar and Snowden and Tuafua and White shouldn't be fighting for starting berths just yet. They should be fighting to get a place on the bench. They're talents, but they're not first grade quality just yet. It's to their detriment that they're being forced to be that because our club cannot recruit adequately.

I look at sides like Penrith, the Bulldogs, Brisbane, and Melbourne - and I see guys in their reserve squad who are fighting tooth and nail to be included in the top squad. Guys who we could use. I look at our side and I see a lot of potential, but nothing in place to ensure it comes to fruition. We've got a rich orchard of future representive footballers and we're letting them go to rot because nobody's there to tend to their development. It's not solely a coach's responsibility, although clearly Smith needs to look at his team as well, it's the club's responsibility. There should be players with first grade experience beyond the Knights such as your Muirs and Griefs and Marquets on hand to offer advice.

We've got thirty seven players off contract this year. I'd be expecting a lot of them to go. Maybe it'll mean losing a promising junior to another club, but until we've got the people here to nurture them, it won't mean sh*t if they stay anyway. Guys like Jarrod Mullen and Akuila Uate and Cory Patterson would already be first grade quality footballers at any other club - yet at this club they're still green and trying desperately to adapt because the club has let them down.

I read about us looking to recruit guys like Luke MacDougall and Brett White, and I don't know that that's the answer. White has immense potential, but he's being aided in his development by guys like Michael Crocker, Dallas Johnson, and Ryan Hoffman. He's got a network in place that has turned him into a State of Origin footballer in short order. What we need to be looking at is out of favour guys. I see we're after guys like Richie Williams and I wonder 'why'? Mullen won't be helped by having to take on the role of Williams' tutor at the age of 21. He needs somebody to be tutoring him, and I don't mean Andrew 'I'll Be There Next Week' Johns. He's retired, and he's making that quite clear.

What I do like is the fact we're looking at guys like Waterhouse, Ross, and Ryles and I'm encouraged (well, not so much by Ryles). But these are all experienced prop forwards who bring a lot to the table as both players and role models. While some would balk at it, a guy like Kimmorley or Monaghan would have been a tremendous aide and relief for Mullen. Maybe it's a matter of looking at some of the 'washed up has beens' in England who have migrated their for the retirement fund. There are doubtless guys up there itching for a chance to prove themselves on Australian shores again - guys like Danny Nutley who has come back and acquitted himself well in a poor Roosters' side. And don't like Gold Coast's Richie Mathers experiment put you off a look at English talent itself. The likes of Fielden, Sinfield, Ellis, and Peacock would all walk into our current side. The money might be a big ask, but then again, what player doesn't want to prove himself in the game's premier competition?

Whatever the solution, hiring needs to be done, and it doesn't need to be a Jonathan Thurston or Karmichael Hunt. It needs to be a few Glenn Griefs, a Ben Walker, and one or two David Peachys.

 

[Doctor]

I was going to post a separate thread on this, but it's unfair to you and wouldn't do your points here justice. Without getting into the nuts and bolts, as you have Chris, I'm going to politely suggest that you, quite justifiably, have panicked like the rest of the Hunter.

Today's record scoreline will do nothing for the optimists. Statistically, it looks terrible. But so did the team we put on the park. We were never going to win. I just don't think anyone could have guessed how big the scoreline would be. It's understandable to be disappointed after a result like that. I was, and still am. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater is the wrong response. I may have taken a gist of what you said, but without referring specifically to each comment, I get the feel (a gist) that you think we need a more wholesale clean out. We have made bad decisions. I agree.

My two points:

- Today's result should be treated separately to the rest of the discussion. The problem today was execution. There key men playing in the key positions totally outmuscled and outclassed lesser opponents. I for one thought Gordon had a good game, all things considered and especially given he came up against Hunt. Karawana did as well as he could have been expected to, so too many others. We had Michael Young playing hooker for most of it... it's a long way from Premier League bench prop and former PL fullback.

I was proud of the effort, but disappointed in the execution and the effectiveness in which the Broncos showed us up.

- With the exeption of the centres, essentially the team looks pretty good once we get players back. For once in our history, the Knights don't have a quality backline. Our problem is that our depth in the key positions was unavailable too. With Kurt Gidley unavailable, and Thaiday, Seage etc all out too, was it any wonder we struggled. It's the same with the absence of Walsh. With a couple of good centres (MacDougall is struggling), and our players back on deck, we're a good gutsy side.

Yes we're disappointed, but the Knights premier league VS Broncos first grade premiers was always going to be one-sided. At least the effort is there.

 

[Misanthrope]

I'm going to politely suggest that you, quite justifiably, have panicked like the rest of the Hunter.

Don't make assumptions as to my state of mind. My passion for the Knights and rugby league in general has been at an all time low of late, and so I can look at today's result without being distraught at the margin. All season we've either been losing by big margins or winning by narrow ones. While the latter shows plenty of guts, looking at the individual games shows that it was more a lack of finishing, finesse, and determination. We should have beaten Cronulla by more - yet we won by six. Same goes for Souths, where we won by one.

We have made bad decisions.

That should be our motto. We have the best junior nursery in the country, yet we have won the competition just once this decade. We've not made the grand final since, we've missed the eight, and we've finished last. When we've made the finals, we've crashed out of them without much fanfare. If you're satisfied to accept 'good enough', then power to you, but I've seen the side slump further and further from where it should be every year since 2001. I used to think it was solely Hagan's fault, but judging by this year, I'm beginning to think it's a culture thing that Smith will be hard pressed to root out.

I was proud of the effort, but disappointed in the execution and the effectiveness in which the Broncos showed us up.

Effort's great. It covers all manner of sins. "We sucked, but we tried" is an under eights motivational tool. The fact is, we were without only three geniune first graders today (albeit our best three) and we were done 71-6. Brisbane were hot, no doubt, but 71-6? f**king hell. Even Souths weren't humbled quite so convincingly. The problem is that we lose four players and suddenly it's our Premier League team out there. Other sides with similar injury woes aren't capitulating to that extent.

I for one thought Gordon had a good game, all things considered and especially given he came up against Hunt. Karawana did as well as he could have been expected to, so too many others. We had Michael Young playing hooker for most of it... it's a long way from Premier League bench prop and former PL fullback.

That's the problem. I know all of these guys have first grade potential, but they'll never get to live up to it because they're being expected to match up with the likes of Lockyer and Thurston and Orford without any support. We've got a side full of 'potential' and aside from three players, nobody there to give them the support they need.

With the exeption of the centres, essentially the team looks pretty good once we get players back.

Our pack is terrible. Patterson, Tolar, and Tuafua have potential - but them aside, it's the worst pack in the competition. There's no mongrel in it, and nobody who understands what a workrate is who isn't still young and naive enough to think that effort = achievement.

At least the effort is there.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm sure you'll get to use that gem a few times over the next few seasons.

 

[keeney]

I feel the same, with the exception of Waterhouse, and Reynoldson as of this year. He's been rubbish in the past, but this year he has been really reliable. He was our best forward on ground today, and short of Jarrod, our best outright. Waterhouse is a lacklustre lock/2nd rower, we have enough of those.

It's unrealistic to be looking at the cleanout you wish for within the year, particularly because most of the astute purchases that could help us are already off the market or not worth what they're after. Just because a player is a seasoned campaigner without being a superstar, doesn't mean they would add what we need to our team. And sadly, there aren't too many around that fit in that comfortable gray area of leader/honest toiler+experienced campaigner without commanding a sizeable amount.

I think alot of our woes could be solved by 2-3 solid purchases, and even if they aren't, its a step in the right direction for 2009. The talent that has been displayed in our team at times is undeniable. Perry and Newton are capable of 5 times the effort they've been putting in. It's a case of attitude. I feel a single lynchpin in the pack, in combination with those we have, could be all the difference. Problem is Bedsy and Simmo are good at what they do, but we lack a forward who can always cart it forward, make solid metres, and be looked to to inspire the team. Another Craig Smith could really do us wonders.

Today didn't get to me too much, maybe I've been afflicted by the apathy that has hung around the club for far too long, but once it got bad, I knew it would get worse, and I really didn't care. For all the positive steps that Smith has taken, there are more that need to be done, and an atttitude to dispell that will probably take more than this year. I think its a hangover from the Johns and Hagan era, our defence is still piss poor from a combination of Johns' ability to generate points (which we no longer have) and Hagans inability to instil correct techniques and motivations (which we hopefully have an answer for).

So what am I saying? I'm not really sure anymore but I think its something along the lines of this.

I agree with CWB, but a cleanout of that scale is ridiculous, and impossible to do well with the players left. Additionally, it may not be necessary to do something that large, a good back who knows what he's doing, a good prop who knows what they're doing, and a good half may be all we need to ensure our talent is correctly utilised and our team performing like it should. With that though, and all the positive strides we've taken (have we?) I feel it will take a little time to change the environment adn attitude of the club. This capitulating bullsh*t has afflicted us for the best part of the last 7+ years, our defence always been a problem. It takes more than an offseason and 10 rounds to undo a problem of this magnitude, one that is essentially ingrained within the club.

I don't know, maybe I accept mediocrity to readily.

 

[roopy]

If we had seen this same side named at the start of this season - a 70 point hiding is what we would have expected.
This team has been performing above expectations, but take out the old, cool heads and they fell in a deep hole.

I'm not worried - well i am about the next month till we get bedsy and kidley back - but long term i think these young guys will improve game by game till they are a force about this time next season.

 

[Frederick]

I was going to post a separate thread on this, but it's unfair to you and wouldn't do your points here justice. Without getting into the nuts and bolts, as you have Chris, I'm going to politely suggest that you, quite justifiably, have panicked like the rest of the Hunter.

Today's record scoreline will do nothing for the optimists. Statistically, it looks terrible. But so did the team we put on the park. We were never going to win. I just don't think anyone could have guessed how big the scoreline would be. It's understandable to be disappointed after a result like that. I was, and still am. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater is the wrong response. I may have taken a gist of what you said, but without referring specifically to each comment, I get the feel (a gist) that you think we need a more wholesale clean out. We have made bad decisions. I agree.

My two points:

- Today's result should be treated separately to the rest of the discussion. The problem today was execution. There key men playing in the key positions totally outmuscled and outclassed lesser opponents. I for one thought Gordon had a good game, all things considered and especially given he came up against Hunt. Karawana did as well as he could have been expected to, so too many others. We had Michael Young playing hooker for most of it... it's a long way from Premier League bench prop and former PL fullback.

I was proud of the effort, but disappointed in the execution and the effectiveness in which the Broncos showed us up.

- With the exeption of the centres, essentially the team looks pretty good once we get players back. For once in our history, the Knights don't have a quality backline. Our problem is that our depth in the key positions was unavailable too. With Kurt Gidley unavailable, and Thaiday, Seage etc all out too, was it any wonder we struggled. It's the same with the absence of Walsh. With a couple of good centres (MacDougall is struggling), and our players back on deck, we're a good gutsy side.

Yes we're disappointed, but the Knights premier league VS Broncos first grade premiers was always going to be one-sided. At least the effort is there.

Hages? :crazy:

 

[keeney]

I'm beginning to think it's a culture thing that Smith will be hard pressed to root out.

Exactly, well without the hard pressed to root out. I feel it will be rooted out with time, everything is cyclical after all, but it will take time. Combine that apathy with inexperience, a few absolutely sh*thouse players and the guys who anchor our defence out? Thats a recipe for what happened today. It isn't excusable, but it isn't hard to see why it happened, and retain some hope that it'll be gone soon.

 

[Misanthrope]

It's unrealistic to be looking at the cleanout you wish for within the year, particularly because most of the astute purchases that could help us are already off the market or not worth what they're after.

We have thirty seven players off contract. We'll renew some, no doubt (probably more than need to be renewed), but there's no issue with us beginning the cleanout by letting the dead wood go.

I didn't say it needed to happen all at once or all right away, but the foundations need to start being laid now. Do you think North Queensland went from dead last to the side they are today in one off season? It took time to build the foundations of a self sustaining club. Even if we just sign one reliable prop and one reliable back this year, that's two players there who can help our younger guys adjust. As it is, they're going into a side to stand beside guys who are every bit as scared and inexperienced as they are.

 

[Doctor]

OK, points taken. I'll agree to disagree with you on our forward pack. There is potential there, but they lack experience and are struggling for form.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm sure you'll get to use that gem a few times over the next few seasons.

Come on Chris, don't dramatise it too much. Let's not turn on each other in a time of crisis. My support of the effort is a sign that, at the very least, our players want to be there. Many sides clock off when faced with an uphill battle. Our team didn't. Mind you, I'd hate to have seen the result had they clocked off.

The effort is there, and it does help me sleep a night. It doesn't mean we shouldn't change a few things and try and foster a better performance. But in terms of being proud of my colours, I sleep very well knowing that whoever is picked in my team is giving his all for the colours. Without wanting to dramatise it, as I think you have Chris, it's all about the effort. You might be able to coach skills and maximise talent, but you can't coach effort. They have to want it. They did today. With a few players back, some experienced heads, a couple of new signings and a re-focusing of the club on keeping juniors, we're still doing OK.

I sleep better at night knowing that my team makes an effort. I'm not the most talented person in my profession, or my workplace. But I give it my best. I'm sure you do too.

 

[Parki]

Many sides clock off when faced with an uphill battle. Our team didn't. Mind you, I'd hate to have seen the result had they clocked off.

i totally disagree with that statement.... 46/0 in 40 minutes and you say they tried? Honestly they chucked it in, lets not mince words..... three (i dont know if there were that many "efforts" but im prepared to concede that) decent tackles in a half of football doesent mean they tried... it means they were trying to cover up for their own sh*t

they should give everyone who bothered to fly up there their money back, we knew we were up against it today, but that was just garbage.... they may as well have not come out after lockyer kicked the field goal

 

[Deleted member 10972]

Maybe give Davico a go? He is lingering in PL, but the guy adds plenty of mongrel, hits up hard as ever still, & will lead the pack fearlessly.

Perry needs to be dropped to get it into his head that being in FG is a privilege.

 

[Serc]

They tossed it in totally...this was particularly obvious early in the 2nd half. 'They' being about 90% of the team.

 

[Misanthrope]

Come on Chris, don't dramatise it too much. Let's not turn on each other in a time of crisis. My support of the effort is a sign that, at the very least, our players want to be there. Many sides clock off when faced with an uphill battle. Our team didn't. Mind you, I'd hate to have seen the result had they clocked off.

My point is that effort means sh*t if you're not able to turn it into a result that doesn't read '71-6'. We were missing three players today who I'd consider integral to our team, yet (and I realise Brisbane were in good form), we were hammered by a record margin. Three players gone, and we were forced to name Mullen at captain and turn to guys like MacDougall and Newton for experience and guidance.

There was a time when having Joey and Buderus out would still leave the likes of Peden, Kennedy, O'Davis, and Matt Gidley on the field. Now we lose two or three guys and we're struggling to name a side at all. The potential is there, I've said it a thousand times in this thread alone, but it needs experience to turn to in situations like today. It needs experience to turn to so that it doesn't turn into another Josh Perry.

We need to recruit this experience, because the club isn't producing it. Our forwards with any game time under their belts are invariably average, and most any young back we produce has been poached so that George Carmont can be considered a backline leader.

They have to want it. They did today. With a few players back, some experienced heads, a couple of new signings and a re-focusing of the club on keeping juniors, we're still doing OK.

How does that explain our steady decline in the past few years? The supply of juniors hasn't dried up, so the problem can't be with them. The problem is with the support they're not being provided with.

I'm not the most talented person in my profession, or my workplace. But I give it my best. I'm sure you do too.

:lol: Point taken. It's funny for me, though, because I work at Bilo in a country town. I'd be depressed if I wasn't the most talented person in the town - let alone my place of employment.

 

[Risa]

What about Sargeant? Wasn't be meant to be Simmo's replacement?

 

[Misanthrope]

Maybe give Davico a go? He is lingering in PL, but the guy adds plenty of mongrel, hits up hard as ever still, & will lead the pack fearlessly.

Guys like Davico and Sargent should have been in the side from day one. Davico might be a shadow of the player he once was - but he's big, he's got mongrel, and he's been around the field a few times.

 

[keeney]

We have thirty seven players off contract. We'll renew some, no doubt (probably more than need to be renewed), but there's no issue with us beginning the cleanout by letting the dead wood go.

I didn't say it needed to happen all at once or all right away, but the foundations need to start being laid now. Do you think North Queensland went from dead last to the side they are today in one off season? It took time to build the foundations of a self sustaining club. Even if we just sign one reliable prop and one reliable back this year, that's two players there who can help our younger guys adjust. As it is, they're going into a side to stand beside guys who are every bit as scared and inexperienced as they are.

Entirely agreed then. Our culture will leave fast if those who espouse it, knowingly or no, leave too.

 

[Misanthrope]

Entirely agreed then. Our culture will leave fast if those who espouse it, knowingly or no, leave too.

Exactly. And I'd be looking at Perry to be first to go, even if he wins a Dally M this year. The guy is not only a huge disappointment in terms of his own potential, but his shoddy work ethic will rub off on impressionable young guns with otherwise bright futures.

 

[Gene Krupa]

What about Sargeant? Wasn't be meant to be Simmo's replacement?

Precisely. They name all these guys for the first grade side, don't use them, weaken the Premie side and then they lose match fitness/confidence in the process. Sargent must be wondering if he made the right choice signing here.

Same with Uate. They name a guy on the wing who's been with the club days, when they could have bought in a guy who's running the program and itching to get a run in the starting side. Some say that a bad game could affect his confidence but seeing a guy who's just been bought into the club get a run straight away wouldn't be doing him any good either. He'd be wondering what he has to do to get a chance.

As for Tighe, so glad he's off contract this year. He can go stink up some other club.

I know that this loss will probably do the young players some good in the long run but, by god, it's sure going to smart them for a while!

 

[Parki]

Perry is a gigantic waste of space and hasnt lived up to his potential, i think we all agree on that

that being said, i dont think he is a total waste of space.... so in my opinion we need to drop him to reserve grade

this will give him two options

work hard, pick up his f**king game and get back to the potential we saw 10,000 years ago

or chuck it in and leave

either way both are better than what he is doing now which is jack sh*t

 

[keeney]

If Smith doesn't drop people after today we may very well have another Hagan on our hands. Perry needs some time in PL.

Davico has experience, and was a very good candidate for what we need, BUT, hes a shadow of what he once was, and he won't provide the efforts we need to lead from the front. I think Sargent should be fast tracked though.